Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted March 28, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted March 28, 2011 Not sure if this new strut is more akin to the snake oil peddler or at what % is verifiable. Not sure that I would spend the time or energy trying to retro fit on an older boat. Belive it or not that strut design is nothing new, Similar designed struts have been on inboards for a long time. Funny though the inboard racing community never went to it. As for the idea of sticking one under a new Nautique the Shaft angle is actually closer to 15* then 16. I just went out and checked mine with a digital instrument it measured 15.3*. I think that most of the feed back on the strut is wishfull information and in house skiers giving back results that the manufacturer "wants" to hear. Take the product out to skiers that have no affilation or are the real buyers of the product and listen to what they have to say. Here is the problem as I see it all the current boats track, ski and provide wakes that are very similar and oh! for "tournament usage also" and the products are better than ever..... But!!! because the tournament world has not grown like the recreational market these boats are not truly dedicated three event boats. If they were they would be 17'-19' in length weigh 2000# and would be closed bow and seat four people Max. I like my snake oil straight with a dash of branch water!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 The designs benefits are undeniable the design definitely reduces the amount of flow disturbance that occurs as the water flows to the prop, thus making the prop more efficient at converting its rotational energy to thrust. I cant give you a % increase in efficiency, and for the skiers they were tested blind not knowing which boat had the new strut design. Take my comments as you will, but from a fluid flow standpoint the strut works 100%, cant argue with science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted March 28, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 28, 2011 Jody MC still makes the 190 I have not skied behind one of the newer ones recently but I would assume it has a better wake than the 197 because of the size and weight difference. I do not see why it is not used in tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted March 28, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted March 28, 2011 Actually the 190 was the boat that was used when Regina Matched the world record in 2009. I would have to agree that the 190 is a better (great!) boat for tournament usage then the197 however re-sale of the boat is not what the 197 is and so we see most all the MC's open bow boat in tournaments and getting re-sold to the rec boater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 MattP, The 190 is identical as far as the hull is concerned to the 197, there is about a 200lb weight difference between the two boats though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted March 28, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 28, 2011 Jody & MCskiFreak Thanks for the info! MC should make an option to have the 190 as a Promo/WTT boat to get it back on the tournament scene. In front of the people who would buy one. We all know they are out there but never think about them because we do not have the chance to ski behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 http://www.actionwater.com/new_vehicle_detail.asp?sid=5985659E-02X3K28K2011J4I03I29JPMQ3081R0&veh=148640&pov=1917015 2010 TT boat, they are just rare, it is an option to have a WTT 190 but most people are also worried about being able to unload the boat at the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted March 28, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 28, 2011 TT's are available as a 190 closed bow. Next to none are ordered due to resale considerations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east tx skier Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Just to give an example as to how few 190s have been produced in recent years (somewhat recent years), there were 8 190s produced in 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted March 29, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 29, 2011 "Just to give an example as to how few 190s have been produced in recent years (somewhat recent years), there were 8 190s produced in 2006." That's probably about the same amount of people that have actually ridden in the bow of a 197 too;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Sullivan Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 /vanilla2/uploads/FileUpload/11/651.jpg ah come on now, lots of love for the open bow of the 197 at our lake. They get used by the little ones while we ski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 Now there's justification for the OB! Kids smiling faces are priceless! It looks like you have a well behaved dog too. I have to leash mine to the pylon, otherwise he dives out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 Why not get the OB if same hull? More utility, easier resale, easier to wipe the front of the boat when on the lift (granted you don't have circumferential dock). Personally, I see lots of people in the bow; kids like the above, adults chilling on a slow cruise around the lake w/some brews and tunes, loading the boat for boarding, even hanging out tied up to someone's doc for a chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 As of right now the only reason would be to save the few hundred pounds of weight...but a lot of the boats that went to the pros as well as TT boats are getting towers so clearly a few hundred pounds doesnt bother a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 Our family tried the OB thing with a PS 205, and found it useless for us. Whoever sat up front was isolated from the conversation. It was extra interior to keep clean. We hated the wind blowing through the walk-thru (but we didn't have a jump seat). And, in our opinion, just didn't look as cool as a CB, so we went back to the 190. I guess I'm "that guy" that they still build CB's for - maybe MS too? (we're drunk on 196 ale!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Roger Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 Which of you are skiing behind the 2011 MC? One of our Big Dawg skiers took a set behind a new promo here and the comments were "brutal wake from 32 to 38..." He liked last year's MC fine. I'd like to think it's just this particular boat. I may draw one in a tournament this weekend, so I'll offer my own opinion if that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 I continue to be amazed at all the comments about significant wake differences in boats that are same model, same equipment, same manufacturer, same year. Hard to believe that today there could still be significant enough differences out of these molds to create this situation...a little disheartening, actually. Would like to think that if I plunk down big money on a 197, I get a 197 wake, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 Wakes also have to do with the water conditions and the depth of the lake or so I am told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Roger Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 "Wakes also have to do with the water conditions and the depth of the lake or so I am told." For the most part, I think you can rule that out here at Okeeheelee. Right now we're high 70's water temp, mid 80's air temp with water levels a bit down due to lack of rain. Shallower generally equals smaller wakes if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 I must just be too much of a neanderthal to notice wakes. I go to tournaments and ski all three boats and they all feel fine to me. Isn't to say that I don't have preferences (MC and SN), but I ski the same scores behind them all, even Malibu. As for MC, I am taking a wait and see approach to the 2011 boats. New motor and the strut -- neither of which I thought were necessary -- need to prove their worth before I'd consider one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I can see why you are skeptical of the new engine, but the strut is not something that can break down. If you open any fluid mechanics or naval architecture book you will see why what they are doing works and the math doesnt lie. For a more empircal route look at any high performance I/O outdrive, in fact look up Ilmor's Indy outdrive for their offshore boats and you will see that the gear case has a very similar shape to help reduce turbulent flow as it enters the prop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east tx skier Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 swc5150 wrote at 9:41AM "Our family tried the OB thing with a PS 205, and found it useless for us. Whoever sat up front was isolated from the conversation. It was extra interior to keep clean. We hated the wind blowing through the walk-thru (but we didn't have a jump seat). And, in our opinion, just didn't look as cool as a CB, so we went back to the 190. I guess I'm "that guy" that they still build CB's for - maybe MS too? (we're drunk on 196 ale!)" Count me in on this plus the storage in a closed bow. Had the 205 for four and a half years. Great boat, but the bow was rarely used. I want my little ones within arms reach of the driver and got tired of pulling pine needles from in between the bow cushions. We love our closed bow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 I was told this weekend that there are 3 190/197 molds at MC and that it's possible one has had the hook taken out of the mold which would account for some boats having a different wake. I know the 2011 TT I skied late last year had a vicious 28 off wake. It felt like you were hitting a 4 ft high concrete wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 That would be incorrect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted March 30, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted March 30, 2011 MCSF, The bullet nose on the strut certainly offers the wake smoothing elements around the strut, but one area left untouched is the backside of all those components, the strut, shaft and even the prop. There would be several trailing edge treatments that could/would smooth the flow and potentially improve efficiency, change the wake, etc. So, this is a step not necessarily the final iteration towards the goal. From an engine perspective, the base engines are all pretty much the same, they come from the manufacturer and are basically dressed to the specs by the marinizer, so from a base engine standpoint, all should offer the same reliability. How they are dressed and potentially calibrated is an individual marinizers choice that can influence reliability, serviceability and to an extent, performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yes, they could refine a lot of things to increase the streamwise flow around underwater components but without heavy investment in CFD modeling, and tank testing the results would be very costly to achieve and probably would not improve much over what they currently have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted March 30, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted March 30, 2011 I have had really good luck with trailing edge treatments, even things I had zero confidence would result in success and hopefully many that go unnoticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Care to share what modifications you are talking about? If you dont want them to be public feel free to shoot me an email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted March 30, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted March 30, 2011 In a general context, sharp trailing edges, stepped components to create low pressure zones, minimizing the aerodynamic hole punched by the bluff body by efforts to bring the streamlines back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 i would like to see some pictures of this...you've piqued my interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chuck_Dickey Posted March 30, 2011 Author Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 Look again at the picture I posted of the strut. It shows the trailing edge smoothing DW suggests. The prop shaft and bearing are stepped. The back side of the prop has the nut and threaded shaft which make a tapering effect as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yes I am aware of the shape on the pure flow strut, I was wondering about what DW had done with his own boat. The areas that you are suggesting have a smoothing effect on the water flow actually would cause greater turbulence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Sullivan Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 swc5150 m Thats not my boat or my dog. Just my son in the bow having a great time. I took the pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 Isn't DW talking about drag effects in air? Air is far more compressible than water and will behave differently. Counterintuitive things like vortex generators and cutoff trailing edges work in airplanes and racecars. In boats it is the ballast tank and tower weighting the front of my new MC that makes the wakes fantastic when the rope gets short. The 15off wake is brutal though on my new boat. It tricks great! So don't stress if you draw a new MC, Roger. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted March 30, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2011 MC, tell Aarne to send me a bullet strut for my new boat. I'm curious to see the difference. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted March 31, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted March 31, 2011 Eric, yes, most of the stuff I have played with uses 4 wheels so many of the items would not apply. My main points were not to necessarily stop at a point thinking you are finished and there are a lot of gains to be made on the trailing edge side either in water or air. A sharp trailing edge transition offers advantages for either air or water. What one is after also have a significant effect on what you do. But, I have had the entertaining experience of leaving something on or off a vehicle (accidently) and "holy smokes" that's not what we expected! On my boat, I have played with the chine (more), transom edge (sharper), overall weight and smoothed the "running" gear which all seemed to help at least so far. The open bow added mass offers the weight to change the pitch, thus helping the wake compared to where the weight is located on a tower for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Eric is your new boat a 2011? If it is I think your dealer will probably retrofit one with no charge since some of the early 2011's left the factory before the pure flows were in production, dont quote me on this though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted March 31, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 31, 2011 Guess I'm the odd man out in the "value of an open bow" discussion. Personally I wouldn't have a boat without one, resale issues aside. No one sits up there while we're skiing, although I do put a couple of 25 lb weights in the front to bring the nose down just a tad to positively affect the wake. No, I don't have no stinking tower. But for cruising, lounging etc it's invaluable IMO and ours does get used a fair amount. But my boat is used as much as a family boat as it is a serious slalom boat so I'm sure that differentiates. The bow in our '05 RLXI is larger than most, way larger than the 197 or 200 bow, and with the filler cushion my wife and I can lounge together comfortably in the bow and I'm 6'3". So bow size does count I suppose in how much value you place or find in having one. One opinion. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted March 31, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 31, 2011 I agree on the OB size. Our 205 had a decent amount of room to lounge. I tried sitting up front in a 200 last summer, and I felt like I was in a child's sandbox. That's the tradeoff for world-class wakes though I suppose. If OB sales keep these companies rolling along, I'm all for it! I read that only 13% of all tournament boats sold are used for tournament/show/club use, so it's the general public keeping these companies afloat. I fall into the 87% group, so you're welcome;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted March 31, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted March 31, 2011 Our dog gets a vote on the bow configuration for some reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Bulldog Posted March 31, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 31, 2011 Open bows make sense for everyone that is on a public lake. If you are on a private lake chances are that your peeps can see that action from your boat house or even the shore. That can't be done on public water. I love my step over LX! no wind coming through and still the extra seating. "Do Better..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted March 31, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 31, 2011 I consider my boat as definitely having a world class wake, as do a lot of other folks. I know there are some Malibu haters on this forum but I guarantee you I'll put my wake up against a 197's (at a minimum) any day. It's all hair splitting as far as I'm concerned anyway. FWIW. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Johnson Posted March 31, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 31, 2011 Ed, I agree. I had a 05 LXi with 70lbs in the nose. While skiing I havn't noticed much difference between that and my 2011 CC 200. The video shows a little more dip at the wakes on the LXi but I hardly notice that in the course. The big difference is Z-off, not the wakes. ED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted March 31, 2011 Baller Share Posted March 31, 2011 Ed(s), I agree and would ski a CC 200, the LXi, or the 197 all day long and call 'em world class wakes. There are some driver ergonomic things I don't like as much in the Malibu...but the extra space, layout, and wedge options are nice for us public lakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Roger Posted April 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 4, 2011 Well, I didn't draw a MC this weekend, so I will have to wait to form my own opinion on the 2011 boat. I did however draw some flak for my post as somehow attacking MC boats. Since the MC was one of my favorite boats last year, I was surprised at the MM skier's comments and was simply looking to get other opinions from skiers who had skied the 2011. If anyone else took my post as an attack on MC, please accept my apologies. Last year I repeated many times that "I don't care which of the big three I draw right now because they all ski great." I will continue that attitude until proven otherwise, but I reserve the right to ask how others feel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted April 4, 2011 Administrators Share Posted April 4, 2011 I took 4 sets behind a 2011 promo boat this weekend. Strong and smooth. Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted April 4, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted April 4, 2011 Strong and smooth, but was there a noticible difference or effect from the bullnose strut? I assume that boat had the Illmor engine package? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klinger Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I just got my 2011 last week but haven't had a chance to ski it yet. Weather hasn't been good, and haven't got the course in yet either. Hoping to ski in the next few days. My boat has the new strut, but I got the Indmar engine. I haven't even drove it yet. I'll let ya know my thoughts as soon as I get on the water. I bought a Strada in January while on a 5 day FL trip, so only a few sets on that as well. Should be a great first set!! I really dont think the new strut is going to make a difference on the wake, but that is ONLY my opinion, for now. I start at what most would call the worst wake, 34mph 22off, and then go to 36. One of these years I'll stop starting at bra speed! hehehe JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Roger Posted April 7, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 7, 2011 I spoke with the owner of the 2011 here at Okeeheelee tonight. He says skiers using A are noticing the wake more than those using C. He also said there is a new ZO program for the 2011 MC which he does not yet have. He skies C and says the boat feels similar to last year's to him. I liked his boat last year quite a bit, so that is encouraging. He does have the new strut. I believe we are using the boat this weekend, so I will probably get a set behind it in the tournament. If so, I'll report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted April 8, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 8, 2011 I ski at 30 mph @ 15' off and weigh a buck-thirty-five, and I have a hard time telling the difference between my '93 S&S w/ppsg, and any of the other current three event boats (except for style points). I'm concentrating on my technique far more than the wake. However, I find it interesting that the folks on this forum buy open bows for their resale value. When I was looking for a new boat, I was looking for a closed bow and found it very difficult to find one. The 196's and 190's were far more scarce than any open bow option and seemed to sell quicker when they hit the market. Three event boats simply aren't made for public water. Especially since the inception of wakeboard/wakesurfing boats. Open bow boats increase the chances your boat will swamp in open water. The only time you can take a true slalom boat out in open water is at the crack of dawn or maybe twilight. When I buy my next boat, it will be a closed bow, because I find them safer, more macho, and I'm fairly certain it will sell faster than the open bow. Of course, my gut is my barometer and it's often wildly flawed! JP :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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