Baller Steven_Haines Posted April 11, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 11, 2011 Oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Sullivan Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Hey OB, I ordered two sets. I'll let you know what I think. Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller3536 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 How long has Chet, Chad, and Dave been skiing with this set up? I have never heard of this miracle wing until this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Steven_Haines Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 I just ordered 2 minis for my Strada. Now all I need is a little break from work. I'm excited to try them! What the heck, if I don't like them I'm sure I could find them a happy home pretty easily! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dthate Posted April 12, 2011 Members Share Posted April 12, 2011 OB, I am headed back to my wood Maharajah, the changes are overwhelming, are we concerned this is manditory for sanctioned tournament, its optional, use if wanted. Dont drop thread it is great info. John Horton from what I understand your first ski mod is to remove and toss the wing, I do the same. When you tried the ventral, was it ventral only or with a wing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GreggyC Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 Where to start??? 1.) A ski on plane (less tail down or tip up) creates significantly less drag. A vw obviously creates some drag, you can't bolt anything to the bottom of your ski without creating drag, the question is what does the bolt on device do for you? We know the wing adds drag, it has to with 6 - 8 degrees of deflection which pulls the tail of the ski down. A vw with 0 degrees is not going to add nearly as much drag by comparison. 2.) Every ski is set up differently, shapes, sizes, flex, binding placement, types of bindings, etc... So is it any wonder that skier's struggle with finding balance on the ski throughout a pass? If all the ventral does is add a level of stability that makes it easier to ride a balanced ski, that is more on plane (which has less drag), that would be a win. 3.) In addition to less drag and increased stability, if you get better traction such that ski takes angle easily with less effort in a more of a fluid fashion, that would also be a plus. These are the attributes that OB and Scoke experienced...that is what I experience. It is a very different experience to get wide and flow through the turn with minimal load. You stay connected to the boat longer and use the energy of the boat to get wide vs. loading up at the ball to get shot across the wake and contorting to manage the speed, press the tip and repeat. It sounds unreal, it is very real. As for older skiers, I am mid-fifties, 200+ on a wide. I don't want speed I can't manage or load that strains my back or hits at the ball that ruin shoulders and elbows...if you get the speed you need, the width you need and you can stay connected to the boat without excess load, you can still ski on shorter lines and stay healthy. I have been on the vw for over a year and have had no injuries and my performance is up significantly, granted from a modest base. Some folks just crave the adrenaline rush of the speed and don't feel like they have gotten their workout unless they made a valiant attempt to yank the tow bar out of the boat...that was me 30 years ago. That's not me today and that is not someone who will like a vw. As for the number of vw's and placement, that will be skier specific based upon speed, line length, ski set up etc... Chet and I started riding these together over a year ago. Chad got his late winter and I have no idea about Dave M. Funny story though, before I knew Dave was on the vw I watched the Nano video. Based upon the pitch of the ski and the fluidity of his runs I asked Chet if Dave was on vw's, he said yes. Have no idea whether he was when that video was shot. He clearly is a great technical skier, and it is hard to know how much is the ski, but it sure looked like he was running vw's on those passes. We skiers are a funny lot. This is an expensive sport, boats, gas, tow vehicles, lakes, skis, gloves, handles, vests. In the big scheme, this spend for the vw is modest...whether it is a good value, time will tell. I'm a retail buyer like most of you, buying a new ski, fin, binding is a painful process, will it be worth it? will it be out of date next year? will it break? All I can say is for me, this was a great investment, I would not trade it for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Man Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Steve, Why did you just order the two minis? A friend lent me a vw to try and I was going to put it on as soon as I got use to not having my baggy dry suit on. Then I find out that his is large and I should try the mini. Next I find out that Chet uses a triple combination of two minis and one large. In my opinion Chet Raley and Steve Schnitzer are two of the most intellectual and accomplished skiers. I’m sure there are others as well, like the LaPoint brothers. But anyway, if Schnitz was using a speed fin with four holes and a slot, I would not try it without the four holes to see if I liked it. So my point is; why would I try just the large? Or why try just one small, or two smalls, etc… If Chet has determined that the trio is best, then I would think that is what needs to be tried. And as far as justifying the price: If I rented a limousine for $800.00, wore a $2,000.00 Armani suit to eat at a five star restaurant and glancing over the $2,500.00 bill noticed I was charged $2.00 for the little mint on the table, I would think the mint was overpriced. I have given away two daughters and was involved in the wedding plans. I have been involved in planning funerals for loved ones. It is disappointing to see all of the seemingly inflated fees that people are faced with. No one wants to speak up and sound cheep. I have always thought that fair should be for both the buyer and seller. Often it is hard to put a price on research and development. How much R&D do you think Goode has in the vw? I would guess zero. I do want and plan to try the vw, but to have a true evaluation, for me, I think I would rather try it just like Chet’s. If they work, the price of the vws is cheep compared to what we spend on everything else, but it does not mean that they are fairly priced. Just because we spend more on other things does not make it fair to overcharge for small things. Schnitz charges a lot less for an almost same product that possibly has the same manufacturing cost, and his includes shipping. $34.99 http://www.schnitzskis.com/finswings.html Scroll down almost to bottom of page. I am eager to continue hearing testimony on the use of the vws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GreggyC Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 Yep, I completely understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Steven_Haines Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 Bud, I guess my reasoning behind it is that Greg B seems to be running 2 small wings and enjoying the experience and also OB and Scoke with the single vw and traditional wing. I guess I feel I can try it both ways and then maybe add the larger one later. Also, the extra $70.00 seems a little much. I know it's new technology and I appreciate that. But when you look at mfg costs, these little jewels are pretty spendy! I guess you could call me cheap?! I know that I'm itching to try them! d:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Steven_Haines Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 Bud, Also, the impression I get from reading all the above info, the larger wing seems to add drag and may be more suited to someone skiing much shorter lines than I'm capable of. I normally run my wing around 7°, so I'm kinda used to and looking for less drag. I might be wrong, but it'll sure be fun messing with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Man Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Steve, I would not, and probubly no one else either, would call you cheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted April 12, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted April 12, 2011 The ventral as a stand alone device certainly adds drag, but since it is mounted to a fin on a ski and at that point it is part of a system, you have to look at the total effect to determine if there is more or less system drag. There are certainly interaction effects as they have been clearly described by more than one person trying the device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted April 12, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted April 12, 2011 DW good perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dirt Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 Good information. Thanks for posting. I want to try them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 I'm interested in trying them too. Before taking the plunge though I'd just like to see some fairly pointed and thought out input as to defining where they should be located and what size where, in respect to what they add to the equasion dependent on the sizing and location, rather than just doing hit-and-miss experimentation without any factual basis to start from. Make any sense? Just because Chet runs a certain setup i.e. doesn't necessarily mean the same identical setup will be optimum for someone at my level, for for anyone else at all for that matter. What we're paying for here is NOT the hardware, it's the TECHNOLOGY behind the hardware. What I'm still looking for is some insite into how to best determine how to go about figuring out the optimum setup for each individual skier. Am I missing something? Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted April 12, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted April 12, 2011 Optimal set up for each skier is an impossibility. If it were possible to state what is optimal for any portion or aspect of this sport this forum would not exist. Everybody would just read one thing and know. I do feel that this may just be a very cool and functional tool. Amazing minds and athletes working and testing it. But selling it within and among well researched items for what collective opinions are saying is a high dollar amount (with 0 instuctions or rational of use) may have been premature. It is a work in progress at best. Not a bad thing just not a good selling point. Information will come and like many other inovations it will stand the test of time, morf into something better or die. I will try one. Maybe not pay for it. I need the placebo. Can you say "slump" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GreggyC Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 Ed, so, I am not Chet but have probably seen more skiers than most make the transition. With that said, this would be my guidance. If you are a solid skier skiing 34.2 or higher at 22-28 off or better seeking more stability and less drag, but otherwise like your existing set up, I'd probably just start with the mini mounted forward ( i think this is OB and Scoke's set up). If you are an intermediate skier who struggles with balance, tends to ride the tail of the ski, I'd probably start with the large ventral mounted tips down and ride that without a traditional wing to start with. If you like it but want a little more you could add the mini forward (this is my set up). The next move to Chet's settings is just another mini and inverting the large ventral. If you are a high level skier skiing 35 off or better, I'd emulate Chet's settings. With that said, I have seen Chet set his settings on a 10 year old boys ski who immediately went out and skied 34.2 for the 1st time at 15 off. This is just my opinion based upon observations over the past year. Chet might say something completely different. I certainly do not have Chet's eye or a fraction of his knowledge. There are just so many variables, but directionally I think this would work. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Steven_Haines Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 So far (as far as I know) no one has taken delivery on this item. In theory there should be some mounting guidance shouldn't there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 Greg do you think you can contact Chet and see if he would like to do a write up as to why the wings are placed where they are and how different placements of 1 with a standard wing , 2,or 3 of the V wings affect the ski. Then post it here? I think it would be a great addition to all the info on this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GreggyC Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 Correct...other than what Chet sold directly to folks at PBTC and to folks who ordered off his website. I have no idea what he sent with those orders. Yes, this will need to be more precise. I probably won't see Chet until Saturday, I'll ask then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted April 12, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted April 12, 2011 Goode and Chet would sell more of them if he did a writeup. I do fear taking a drill to my ski for 3 of these wings. Looks like none of the holes on my fin will work. I can take a chance with holes in the front of the fin but not the back if it doesn't work. Was a 35 38 skier up till the slump this year so if GregB is correct I'll need to sharpn that drill bit for a bunch of holes. Arggg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted April 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 12, 2011 That does indeed help GregB, thank you. That begins to clarify things a bit and I appreciate that you were willing to take the time to post it. FWIW in mid season form an average set for me is 34 mph deep 32 - mid 35 off, 68" Strada, one bobble away from running 35. Off side tip rise can be a bit of an issue, thus my interest in this. As stated by others, I can't imagine that at some point there won't be some sort of instructions put out with these things to give some general guidance a la the instructions you'd get with an adjustable fin perhaps. Something to go by anyway. Agreed, releasing these without any real instructions or solid information to accompany them is premature. Knowing the nature of serious slalom skiers ("I want the best, latest, NOW!)" it's no surprise that they're being made available, especially if there is some potential immediate gains to be had from using them. Some info from Chet would be huge at this point and would probably drive all of us into a buying frenzy... Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted April 12, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted April 12, 2011 I'll take a stab at the latest slant this thread has taken. One key is this is a relatively immature product or technology application to a ski/fin/system so the location and size optimization details are still pretty fluid for the vw. A fin has countless hours of refinement dedicated to specific locations either for a ski or a skier preference and performance characteristics. So, it will take a bit of time to accumulate adequate data to produce the requested document. Certainly, there is some data to get pretty darn close, sounds like Chet and a few lucky cohorts have a reasonable amount of time dialing and tuning them and would be the best source of the data. My personal opinion would be to buy an additional fin in the process, that would allow you to get a really good A-B-A test to document the changes. Then you can drill and move the vw's around on one fin until you get the position optimized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ RichardDoane Posted April 12, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted April 12, 2011 I picked up a few extra Radar wings this afternoon @ Wiley's, and plan to do a little fabrication on the bench tomorrow. Thanks to all who've posted pictures to give me a clue. I'll let you know what kind of a mess I make, and how it skis this weekend. Sounds like another Broho video is in the works... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Sullivan Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Richard, Mike pulled out some new HO gloves today. He said you picked them up for him. We kind of laughed because he mentioned you pretty much live at Wiley's! I guess he was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ RichardDoane Posted April 12, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted April 12, 2011 MintLakeMike is the "King of the Lurkers", and if you don't believe me, just ask him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Man Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 I tried a vw today. I don’t think this has any value as a true test thought. Meaning, I want to set up a fin like Chet’s for my test and I only had the one large vw that someone lent me. To start with, I have been on the Strada and skiing Rossi’s settings all winter with a baggy dry suit. I took off the baggy dry suit and pretty much have to relearn how to ski. So, first day was no dry suit and no equipment change. Second day I removed the wing to force me to slow the ski on my own. Today I mounted the large vw 4” from rear of fin and 7/16” down. I don’t think I felt a difference from a bare fin and one with the vw. Then I switched fins to one with a Schnitz maxi wing at 9° and no vw. This felt better to me. To me, the maxi wing made the ski feel like it was cutting through soft butter around the buoy. I did run 35s with a bare fin and a fin with a vw as described, but not the way I normally do. All in all, I have felt sort of sloppy on most of my passes since taking off my dry suit. Part of my discomfort might be that I am a little chilly. I think I need to get back to skiing comfortably and then give it another shot set up fully like Chet’s fin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted April 13, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 13, 2011 OK. After reading GregB's post yesterday I went back through the entire thread and created a Word file on my machine, copied all pertinent comments and install suggestions, all of the photos that have been posted, studied it all thoroughly, then ordered one small VW from Goode's web site. Once I've been skiing a bit I'll mount it set up like OB's and see how it feels. I figure I've pissed away $65 on less worthy experiments, why not give it a go? Anyone else ordered one and if so how long did it take to get it? Not that I'm in a big hurry, just curious as to how quick they're getting these into peoples hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted April 13, 2011 Administrators Share Posted April 13, 2011 See http://www.ballofspray.com/component/content/article/35-ballofspray-water-ski-news/915-the-all-new-raley-ventral Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Sullivan Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I ordered some on Monday, not sure when they will get here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kstateskier Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Ed! Color me surprised you're giving this a VW a go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted April 14, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 14, 2011 I removed my big old Goode oversize wing and replaced it with the ventral wing. It was nice and stable but very low drag. Personally I want a big old boat anchor on the tail to slow me down so the ventral as a solo fin didn't suit me. Maybe as a second wing it might help me. Note that aircraft have lots of vortex generators (which look a lot like the slalom ski wings) glued to the top of the wing at substantial agnges. It looks like they should add a lot of drag but vortex generator installations claim to increase cruise speed (among other claims). Fluid dynamics is very complex and often counterintuitive. Experimentation is critical. The ventral wing is a worthy experiment. Hmmm, maybe I'll try double fins! Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted April 14, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 14, 2011 Horton - Thanks for the link, excellent info and even more clarification listening to Chet talk about the VW. Kstateskier - You know I'm not afraid of spending money on R&D. Hell, I'll have more $$$ in the experiment I'm sending you than in this one VW. Both are worthy experiments IMO, the intel from both should be valuable and of great interest to the both of us. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GreggyC Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 Guys, for those of you going from a traditional wing to a vw only, please try this. Since you will have significantly less drag, narrow your gate and ease into the course with as little load as possible but stay connected, on edge, past the second spray, I think you will be shocked how wide and slow you will be at the ball and how easy it will be to drop into good angle. Easy transition into the couse doesn't mean no angle, it just means don't roll your shoulders away or lean hard against the boat...just ride the edge/angle out across the bouy line. When OB was describing his experience with easier and easier 35's, I am pretty sure this is what he was experiencing. It is counterintuitive, but try it I think you will like it a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Man Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Good tip GregB. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Steven_Haines Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 GregB, I am un able to see the pics of your set up. How are your 2 VW's set up? Both high? One high one low? Both pointed up? Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 Goode has a diagram on their web site you can download now with exact dimensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Steven_Haines Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 Cool! Thanks Shane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 http://goode.com/images/RALEY%20VENTRAL%20FIN%20REV001-110414.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Boody Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 So what is the most popular set up at this point? Regular wing and small VW Two VW big and small One big VW replacing stock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Man Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Good question Boody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 It is nice to have a published blueprint. It is also interesting to see that the tolerance on that 2.474 dimension is .010. Given the geometry of the fin, I'd be hard pressed to get that close without making a fancy jig. Also note that other fin designs will not dimensionally match the pictured fin. This is a gross change in fin settings. Stressing over minute dimensions is inappropriate at this time. We don't all ski like Chet so his settings may not be optimal for us. Put a Ventral on using the TLAR measuring system (That Looks About Right) and ski it. Goode's machining drawings should have those tolerances but the aftermarket aplications should have much wider tolerances. Measure with a tape measure. Sorry about the rant but we are too consumed unrealistic and irrelevant precision. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Steven_Haines Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 From listening to the interview with Chet, it sounds like 2 minis mounted in the upper position (one up one down) could be a good combination. Did anyone else get that impression? Another thing I'm confused about is, should I set my fin to stock settings and then apply the VW's or do I adjust them along the way as I do my normal tuning through out the year? As the water warms I move the fin down and back. Could this completely eliminate futzing with the fin all together? Looking at Chets fin on the Goode web site, it looks to me that he runs the fin a little deeper in the front and then he set up his ventrals off of his preferred setting. Does it look that way to anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skibug Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 The hole positions vertically, from reference 0, are 0.066" offset, angled towards the front of the ski. Is that becuase the ventral needs to have a little forward pitch to it; or, is it still supposed to be level with the bottom of the ski? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Steven_Haines Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 I noticed that too. The dimensions say it has a slight pitch. I have to agree with Eric, there is no way I'll get it set exactly to their dimensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Schnitz Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 Any time you add drag to a fin, you raise the tail PERIOD! A traditional wing RAISES the tail! It does not pull it down! As the tail raises, the front lowers. A lower front = more drag or a slower ski. Any questions? Schnitz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller kdeupser Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 I have a question. If I hold a board off the back of my swim platform down at the 9 degree's that my wing is set at, and drive the boat forward, then why does the board want to go deeper? I am being serious here, I have heard the lift theory before, but our wings are set to pull the rear of the ski down, are you saying that the turbulance is adding the lift? Or since the ski is on edge, and with the rocker and other variables we are getting lift? I am a fin rookie so that is where I am asking from, Thanks, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GreggyC Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 Steve, I have a mini in the front and a large down as well in the back, Chet runs this inverted + another mini mounted further from the base of the ski. I just added the mini in the front recently, to me more is less so I was reluctant. For me it added stability and made my transitions more seamless. As for Chet's measurements, I think this is a literal copy of Chet's fin. The perceived angle is the result of fin depth and length. He always runs his ventrals parallel to the bottom of the ski, I am sure that could change, and I know he has played with setting different deflection angles but has consistently gone back to the parallel setting. Since the holes are wider than the screws, it is good to check the vw's from time to time as the large ventral can move due to pressure...not much, but they can move. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted April 15, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted April 15, 2011 Steven, What interview with Chet?? can't find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted April 15, 2011 Baller Share Posted April 15, 2011 Its on the BOS home page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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