Practicing behind ZO and trying to ski tournaments behind ZO sucks

[Dirt]

I know this is not news to anyone but I have realized that practicing behind PP Classic and skiing tournaments behind ZO sucks. Not that ZO is bad, just very different. I wish I had 30K for a newer boat. Wish in one hand and .... in the other.

 

[auskier]

im holding out hope for the new PPSG system...

Any news on it? website says testing will occur in CA in early september for possible 'very limited production commencing in october'

[Guest]

Set it on Plus, Plus and 20!

[LeonL]

As dirt said this is nothing new, but my ski partner has PP 6.5ng and I have ZO.  We alternate boats and neither of us seem to experience any difference in our performance.   I admit I'm not much of a skier (couple at 35 on a good day) but he's a full pass better than that most every day.  Just doesn't seem to matter.  We both use C2 and normal PX 0. 

[Chef23]

I talked to Mark at PP a couple of weeks ago and he said the PPSG emulator should be out around December.

[Chef23]

I am not as good as most of you but I practice behind PP Stargazer and Classic and last year matched my average at home in tournaments.  My average at the end of the year was deep 32 off and that was what I was running in tournaments.  My PB at home was 2@35 but I didn't run that all the time.

[6balls]

My bro trains SG, I train PP classic.  We both ran 6/6 35 off behind ZO this weekend over two tourneys.  I got deep 38 which is what I typically do in practice, and he got out of 38 which is what he can typically do in practice.  Same site two years ago was my first ZO tourney and I stunk it up having no idea what setting to pick.  I think you need enough ZO passes to figure out what setting you need to select, and then you can train behind your boat, show up at tourneys and do fine.  

[Horton]

I train most behind a ZO Malibu and a ZO 196. Always B2.

 This weekend I had 6 rounds behind current year 200/MC/CarbonPro

Ok the first round sucked because of red wine Friday night but I sent most of the first 3 rounds thinking how bad all three boats sucked. The CarbonPro sucked the least. The pull did not feel like the ZO pull I get at home.

Sunday I moved my letter to C and it felt so much better. Felt more like B2 behind the boats I practice behind. What really sucks is that one ZO boat does not really feel like another ZO boat. With that in mind how the hell does anyone train unless the own a 2012 boat. Stupid.

Why can't C2 or B2 in one boat feel like the same setting in all boats. Sort of wasted a weekend as I was out of wack by sunday.

[bxroads]

I was browsing through a short line skier's notes last weekend.  He had a 200 and on the same lake was a brand new 197.  He skied behind both.  His note read "MAJOR DISCOVERY, ZO IS DIFFERENT!!!!" in all caps and covering half the page.  The tone was apparent.   

[danbirch]

@Horton  Thanks, John, for the tips on your gate.  I thought (other than the 1st round) your skiing was incredible!  I had a great time, and you made some hilarious comments on the speaker!

[Roger]

You guys should look back a few years at some skiers logbooks and you'll find notes like SN=KX+, MC=KX-, MB=KXn. No big surprise that ZO ALSO feels different between boat brands. And a 196 to a 200 is a MAJOR change in mass, so no surprise there either though to me the 200 just feels a bit smoother than the 196 and I ski about the same buoy count.

 

[Horton]

I just want to train behind one boat and compete with the same pull (without dropping 50K). Things were WAY better under PP.

[Horton]

@danbirch happy to hear the gate comments helped

[Roger]

I'm with you Horton, but don't see why anyone needs to drop 50K.

 

Options:

1) If you have 2002 or later Chevy powered boat, upgrade cost approx $3500.00 to $4500.00 (depending on if new ECM required) with ZO.

2) If you have Ford motor or earlier year boat than above, repower boat approx cost with ZO (from PCM): $6500.00 *

3) Trade existing boat on new or used boat with ZO, cost varies depending on what you choose.

 

I chose option 3 and spent under 30k on a new boat.

 

* This number came from someone who re-powered their Mastercraft with a warranty engine from PCM and it included install and ZO.

 

[rmt15n1959]

What about the new product Jager is developing for the older non-DBW boats?  Looks promising and with the $95 rent before you own that might be a viable option, at least for us with the Gt-40 Nautiques.  I would be interested to hear from someone who has actually used one.

[Ed_Obermeier]

$30K just to "upgrade" to ZO?  That is still beyond the reach of the majority of us.  I can hardly even ski a freaking INT tournament anymore thanks to ZO.  I'm with Horton, things were way better under PP.

Ed

[Hugh Nichols]

Rather than PPSG coming up with ZO emulator, I would like to see ZO build a emulator for PP. I hate ZO!! For me, for my skiing style, for the fun I want to have behind the boat ZO SUCKS!!!

 

BTW Roger, I have a '02 RLX w/ 320 monsoon. I was told ten grand to convert my boat.....some thing about a crank sensor it needed.

Oh well I feel better now.

 

[Than_Bogan]

Just to play devil's advocate here, I've come to really like ZO, and in particular I find it makes the various boats feel awfully similar to each other.  Aside from that wacky Mastercraft at Eastern Regionals, I've found all 4 boats feel great to me at B1.  With PP I sometimes had to tune the KX to get them to feel similar, especially for an open bow compared to a closed.

Nevertheless, I tend to agree that you really must practice, at least sometimes, behind ZO.  This season, I think I've skied something like 80% PP, 20% ZO in practice.  That seems to be plenty, and I don't even notice a difference any more.  But back when I didn't ever practice on ZO, it felt really weird and hard to ski behind.

It's most likely a statistically insignificant comparison, but neverthless ZO has improved my tournament performances.

Still, it does piss me off that my boat is "obsolete" in some sense.  It sucks, but I honestly can't figure out how it could have been net better.  "Overlaying" ZO and PP would have meant an incredibly slower transition, and an equal number of folks pissed about which one they got at a tournament.  At least this way we KNOW what we're getting at a tournament...

[rmt15n1959]

According to another website, ZO will come out with a PP emulator this Fall.  So you will have A, B, C or D to choose from.  Will have to wait and see.  Still doesn't solve the dilemna of forking out big bucks for ZO boat/ZO equipment.  And USA waterski wonders why the numbers are dwindling??????

[Ed_Obermeier]

I hear you Than.  I'm confident that if I could practice behind ZO I could make the adjustment.  But I never get that option, only see it at the few INT tournaments I participate in, wouldn't even consider trrying to compete at an AWSA tournament due to lack of ZO practice.  That's the issue - lack of access to the average trying-to-get-better mid level skier and below.  Like rmt15n1959 said about dwindling numbers... 

[ral]

Where I ski numbers are not dwindling at all.

 

I would guess the mentioned dwindling, if present, is not because of ZO. Numbers are raising here because of a thriving economy which is significantly increasing the living standards.

 

We all ski ZO. In our ski lakes, just the club boat (or two), no personal boats. Lakes are packed every day during the season.

 

In Atlanta, you can become member on a really nice lake, nice people, with a club ZO boat, and ski for less than what it costs to ski where I live. And the lake is empty during a large part of the day. I cannot figure our why.

 

[MattP]

@OB I could have not put it better myself.

[6balls]

We don't have the latest greatest (2000 196), but we do have a $750 lake lease between two guys and have two courses in there.  We feel pretty lucky!  We only get away like this cuz we are rural.  OB and MattP...you guys have the right idea.

[auskier]

@Ed Obermeier, just to clarify, I think Roger has an 09 196. They are selling around the 30k mark, not 30k to upgrade. It would cost you every bit of 30k to upgrade coming from a 90's boat to a newer CC 200, but not from your LXi to a 07-09 196.

[Dirt]

This issue has driven more people out of tournament skiing than any other, ever. Why should I have to pay $10,500 for a newer boat w/ ZO when I have a perfectly good boat. It is ridiculous even if I had the money. I had a hard time buying a ski. I had to sell stuff to get cash because Horton is an ah... J/K about Horton. Sort of. Luckily Badal is a great guy.

The people who are no longer unhappy with ZO are the ones who have put up the money to train behind it and have gained an advantage or are not very heavy. Just my opinion.

 

[Razorskier1]

Maybe the guys at PP will solve all these issues with their ZO-simulator! Honestly, I don't really notice much difference boat to boat on ZO. More often it is lake differences that throw me off on my first pass. As for ZO vs. PP, I ski Stargazer at home on a 2005 197 DBW boat and ZO at tournaments and at my weekend site. At first I hated ZO because my old style of skiing (big guy, pull hard) didn't work. Over the years I have learned to ski lighter and lighter, and I think ZO works for me instead of against me. I also think that by forcing me to ski lighter on the line, ZO will lengthen my ski career by a measurable amount. My 48 year old shoulders would already be gone if I still pulled like I did in the PP days.

[Boody]

Looks like Dirt figured out ZO, 2@39!! Also had a 5@38.

 

Glad Bedal took care of you on the A2, he is a good guy.

[Horton]

Where is my A2

[Horton]

What I am really mad about is that with the same letter and # -the ZO boats I practice behind do not feel like the boats I got last weekend. In short if it was a one or two round event I would have had ZERO chance of a good score. I did not have the boats figured out until round 4. How often do you get more then 3 rounds at a tournament?

 

Other systems and or emulators? F*** Me. More of..... sort of the same but not really the same pulls. Back in the dark ages (PP) the pulls between boats was so so so much closer.

[ral]

..and my grandma says that food in the ole Poland was so much better and tasty...

[Than_Bogan]

Funny how different two people's experiences can be.

 

You (Horton) can switch skis every week and run the same stuff right away. I get on a new ski and it may take me 2 days to run a pass -- typically a week to get similar performances to my previous ski.

 

But it takes you multiple rounds to dial in the feel of a boat, which takes me about 2 buoys.

 

And I feel ZO pulls are much more similar to each other than PP pulls were/are.

 

But we agree on one thing: Don't add more options!! If anything, we need fewer options, with consistency the ultimate goal.

[Horton]

I am pretty sure that reviewing skis is not good from my high score. I have learned lot this year about skis but if I stayed on one ski I think my ave would be a ball or two higher.

 

I think because I am a little heavy on the line, I feel ZO more. What happened this weekend only required me to change setting but it cost me 3 rounds to get my head around it.

[Horton]

@ral I would love to go to Ole Poland and try the food

[Dirt]

@OB, sorry I did not mean to sound like I was attacking anyone and I could be wrong. I appreciate all the comments. It helps me figure it all out and opinions change.

 

@Boody, I don't think I figured it out. The pull felt different (not sure if bad) and I was never in sync with the boat. I did not have a good rhythm and felt like I was sort of hacking or not skiing well. It took all 5 rounds to feel a little more comfortable behind it. The people, lake, boats and drivers were great.

 

I really look forward to a ZO emulator for PP. If it just gets it closer to the ZO feel, I will buy it. I am just frustrated after having tried everything I can think of to emulate it with PP and the switch.

[Deke]

There was a comment by Schnitz on his site about a setting "D" in the works...

[jlittle]

For the way ZO was introduced, and evolved, into our sport will make me hate for that reason alone. And all of us should hate it for that reason. Since that’s water under the bridge, how different it skis from person to person and boat to boat is a disservice a further hurts our sport. Regardless if you co-own a boat with a few people it still has divided our dwindling sport into the haves & the have-nots.

[ral]

I only have enough time and energy to hate my offside...

[ral]

@scotchipman, you should ask OB about that...

[TeamWally]

As an aging (Mens 6) overweight (200#) hacker (into 32 once in a while) I would be interested to have the haters and lovers weigh in. I'm betting the lovers are under 190 and ski very light on the line and the haters are 200+ and start their pull right after the ball and do a bit of scrapping. I've had some stellar ZO rides, the Gali test boat is one of my favs, for some reason that Malibu just skied great out of the wrapper. I keep hearing rumors that ZO programing varies from boat to boat, mfg to mfg. I sincerely feel that our governing body sold the membership out in the race to embrace tighter tolerances and build the Olympic dream. Get over it. Ain't gong to happen. I pick and chose where I spend my $50.00 and weekend, I am burned out on showing up, paying up and getting a crappy ride.

[Dirt]

@TeamWally, that is exactly what I am talking about. One of the only reasons I am skiing OK intermittently behind ZO is I worked hard to lose 30 lbs. I am under 200. I am not complaining, just agreeing with you that the move to ZO was a complete sell out and a lot of people left tournament skiing because of it.

 

It is funny how many people will say, "Oh well, that's the way it is, just deal with it." That is not the USA I grew up in. If we didn't like something, we fought/worked hard to change it and make it better. Times change, I guess.

 

I am hopeful that the PP ZO emulator and/or ZO D option will level the playing field in the next year.

[Roger]

I mentioned the upcoming D setting a month before Schnitz put it on his site, but he has "you heard it here first" on his site, so I guess my post never really happened...

[6balls]

TeamWally, I'm a ZO lover even though I train PP classic, and I'm still a 200# bruiser behind the boat despite trying really hard to ski lighter. I used to weigh 220 and my first PP tourney had to plug in 275 to get times.

I think I ski a zillion times lighter now, but people at tourneys tell me otherwise. I ski my best on ZO despite limited time behind it. I don't, however, love ZO so much that I need to shell out the big bucks for a new boat!

[thager]

6balls, You are an animal! Runs in the family I think.

[disland]

We solved this problem, by hosting our own tournament and using our own boat so we know what the pull will be like.

[MrJones]

I have become a convert. We train PP Classic in practice, but this summer my wife and I realized that we actually like ZO better when we ski tournaments or go practice with friends who have ZO. I find it easier to be consistent on the gates and I feel more free from the edge change through the turn. It doesn't like it when I get shoulder heavy buoy to first wake, but that's my issue not the control system's.

[TeamWally]

And there in lies the rub, Perfect Pass flat worked just fine on the servo system but did not integrate with the ECMs on newer motors, thus was born ZO AND the GPS dance to get the latest and greatest tech to a relatively small market of waterskiers and to a HUGE market of wakeboarders who simply want to set it for speed and forget it. I keep hearing rumors of a a ZO "overlay" that has been tested almost from day one in RPM mode but that it has not hit the market because ZO wants to differentiate from the PP rpm mode. The one that bites me the most, as Horton pointed out, no 2 Malibus ski alike, no 2 MC's ski alike etc etc. Is there really a need for all the rumored "secret settings" ? If I'm going to continue to ante up to ski sanctioned events I would expect the towboats to ski more consistently than our 10 year old club 'tique, yet one of our owners runs 38 into 39 1/2 regularly, then goes next door and can't get past 35 behind a new promo. I don't really see the progress here.

[6balls]

Without trying to sound like a tird, no two lakes ski alike. I feel far more difference in water we may call "fast" or "slow" than in boat A, B, or C that has ZO installed vs. Stargazer vs. perfect pass. My practice PB is same behind each system (1 @ 39)

When I become more technically perfect, maybe I will complain about speed control. For now I can ski very well or very poorly behind every one of 'em. Today I'm at home training PP again with tourney behind ZO coming Friday. No idea which boat will pull us...least of my worries.