AWSA Driver Background check?

[elr]

Looks like you will never understand my position either - but the underwriters do and they are the ones that count with regard to this issue. To spell it out for you I don't want someone who has a history of making bad motor vehicle choices to pull me on Sunday morning after they've partied all night Saturday - no they are not drinking on the boat, they just have a history of getting behind the wheel of a motor vehicle when they shouldn't have and IMO that is a safety concern.

[ForrestGump]

I don't need you to spell it out, I just don't agree that it is an issue that we face in 3 event skiing. Quite frankly, I don't give a flip what the underwriters think either. They're not getting my driving record and if/when my rating is suspended I'll quit being a judge and scorer too. I can still ski any day I want and not working at a tournament won't give me one bit of heartburn.

[Horton]

@ShaneH you can fix your signature or I can fix your signature...

@elr thank you for your input and your signature

[elr]

@OB Its all an insurance issue - you don't need a rated driver/background check unless you need the USAWS insurance or the insurance is required to host a santioned practice, event, tournament. I do not rely on USAWS insurance when I pull my family and friends. To make the insurance less expensive USAWS will need to implement some of the safety measures ShaneH talks about - I think that is how USAWS can best help waterski venues such as yours. INT probably has some form of insurance for their events and that could be another avenue.

[elr]

@Horton thank you for keeping this up for all of us.

[Dirt]

Elr, I see what you are saying but I don't agree that driving record has anything to do with safe tournament driving. Just because the insurance company thinks it is a good idea does not mean it is. Where are all these accidents happening? The answer is, they aren't. We (awsa) don't have a safety problem.

Tell the insurance company no way and buy insurance elsewhere. Money talks.

[501Brandon]

How do these rules impact the other disciplines within USA WS? Do Wakeboard boat drivers, show ski drivers etc. all fall under the same rules in this regard? I am curious if "All" drivers are being grouped in under one rule.

[ForrestGump]

Dirt, knowing your profession, I truly value your opinion here. Honestly, I thought you'd lean the other way initially. But I had a good friend who is TxDPS and knows about tournament skiing read this thread last night, and like you, the first question he asked was "Where are the accidents? " when I told him in other divisions, his reply was "That's dumb. That's like me being lumped in with a race car driver for insurance just because we both drive cars. "

[danbirch]

What I'm confused about, is of the 7 or 8 accidents reported, how many of them were driver caused? A skier/bare-footer/show-skier can get injured, without ANY blame/fault on the driver.

 

Maybe, after this idea fails (when the insurance company realizes that the injury rate continues, or even worse, increases) the insurance carriers won't even want to insure water sports, due to the inherent dangers within the sport itself.

[LeonL]

I've already given up my instructor rating because I didn't want to pay for a background check, even though I can see a reason for that. A background check for drivers is just too much. Why don't all drivers just say no, and see what happens to tournaments.

[jdarwin]

I'm very curious about the requirement related to:

 

"a. be in a USCG complaint vessel with proper equipment and registration,"

 

Where is this found in the recommendations?

This would create a nightmare scenario in the promo world. If you think there is a lack of promo boats now, let this occur!!

[lottawatta]

@jdarwin I should have been more clear, that would apply in Ohio. I am not sure about other states regulations. However, it could be inferred from the comments section of the risk management proposal that the USCG regulations would apply to all states as well.

[jdarwin]

Greg - could you provide the link to the risk mgmt proposal and its related comments?

[lottawatta]

Actually, it is not in the comments section, it is part 3 of the risk management proposal:

3. Educational Program Updates. USA-WS and its Sport Divisions shall review and

update all USA-WS driver's training and instructional programs to include the following:

A. State boating law requirements, e.g., PFD and fire extinguisher requirements;

B. Basic boating safety and "rules of the water" training;se

C. Safety checklists, and operating requirements and recommendations from towboat

manufacturers;

Ohio boating law requires registration, even on private lakes. And while most of us on private lakes will continue to NOT register our boats, I can see the fact that we don't have registration in accordance with our state law as a means for the insurance company to deny a claim.

Additionally, I went to a USCG courtesy check a few years ago, and the first thing they told me was that my registration was expired and that a current registration or a USCG documentation was required to be on the boat at all times to serve as proof of ownership to be considered USCG compliant.

[lottawatta]

Sure, it is in the board packet as posted on the front page of USAWaterski.org in PDF form. Pages 48-50 and/or 107-109. http://www.usawaterski.org/graphics/downloads/2012JanuaryUSAWSBoardMinutesandPacket.pdf

 

I call particular attention to page 6, Task #2 which states:

2. Jeff Smith and Headquarters will work with Larry Meddock regarding driving standards and educational materials to insure that USA Water Ski’s programs meet or exceed U.S. Coast Guard standards.

[jdarwin]

Thanks. I believe some clarification from USAWS is in order.

[lottawatta]

I think the clarification has to come from the insurer as it appears they are the ones in charge here.

[jdarwin]

Agreed - but you and I are not talking directly to the insurer. USAWS is. And, we take direction from USAWS. USAWS needs to define the parameters and communicate clear and concise direction to their members.

[Horton]

USAWS needs to define the parameters and communicate clear and concise direction to their members.

 

I would guess some emails and phone calls are being exchanged right now.

[Razorskier1]

I have never been worried about my safety as a skier or judge at any tournament based on the driver. I have been disappointed a time or two with a driver who I felt had a tendency to hug one side of the course or the other, or to excessively counter steer (taking the handle away), but never about safety. Tournament organizers typically know all the drivers they have, and I rely on them and my own observation to gain confidence that I'll be safe. The DWI thing seems a joke to me in that it is explicit at sites that drivers, judges and skiers are not drinking. Could they be hungover -- I'm sure it has happened, but I also know that the drivers I know wouldn't drive if they didn't feel good enough to drive regardless of the cause. I get that this seems like a simple solution to the powers that be, but doubt that it changes anything with respect to perceived or actual safety.

[sunperch]

Just to clarify, in order for my family and I to spend a day skiing at our club's lake, both my husband and I would need to become rated drivers according to USA waterski in order for us (and the lake owner and the club) to be covered by the USAWS insurance??? We are all AWSA (USAWS) members practicing on a lake that has sanctioned practices from sun up to sun down from Jan 1 to Dec 31 skiing behind our own boat (which is registered and USCG compliant).

[ForrestGump]

Sunperch, as I read it you would have to go through the Trained Driver program. Day long course. You wouldn't have to become a rated driver.

 

[sunperch]

Is that an online course? If not, who would I need to contact to find such a course? Does anyone know who is authorized to offer that course? Only one member of our club is a rated driver, looks like he is going to be popular and busy as none of the rest of us have any formalized training other that hundreds of hours in the driver's seat.

[ForrestGump]

Typically, you could contact the Driver's representative in your AWSA region. It's an on the water course, so no it's not online. A rated driver will administer and test. It's pretty easy. The college kids at Texas A&M went through it last year.

 

I'd go onto your regional AWSA web site and email or call the rvp and ask. They can put you in touch with someone.

 

Keep in mind, this is a proposal. We won't know the real details for a while.

[lottawatta]

Keep in mind, this is a proposal. We won't know the real details for a while.

ummmmm No, this doesn't look like a proposal to me. In fact the board meeting minutes list the motion to accept the proposal and implementation schedule as "approved". Therefore, according to the implementation schedule, it is effective immediately.

[ForrestGump]

According to the email I have from the executive director, the risk management team is still working on what and how.

[lottawatta]

EXACTLY, they are working on the details, but the mandate is already in place. Just like the health care law, they had to pass it to know what is in it!

One thing I find particularly offensive is this:

from the board packet with emphasis added by me: "USA-WS's insurance partners (Global Marine and ESIX) have agreed to provide screening criteria used by other NGB's to assist in the development of USA-WS' screening criteria. It is anticipated that the screening will be undertaken by a third-party agency, which will independently determine (subject to appropriate rights of review as to the accuracy of the underlying information) whether a particular candidate passes or fails the applicable criteria."

 

Our leaders passed this without knowing the exact criteria by which a driver would be judged! Further, they presumably knew about this from Dec24th, the date of the proposal, until the board meeting, kept it under wraps, and passed it without input from the sport disciplines or general membership.

 

 

[ForrestGump]

No, I agree. They kept it quiet, knowing full well that we would all pitch a bitch. That right there shows the character of this executive leadership group. I have a real issue with that, considering the implications to not only tell rated drivers but more importantly the clubs. And whether you agree or disagree with the criteria, every awsa member should have a problem with how this has been conducted.

[lottawatta]

My Dad always told me not to criticize the leaders unless I was willing to get involved and change things myself. (He was on the AWSA BOD for one term, pre usa-ws.) At this point, I am not willing to do that. I choose to give back to the sport in other ways. But as a lake owner, judge, driver, competitor, and promoter of the sport, I am going to make my stance known to them. The leadership needs to focus on removing barriers of entry into our sport. They need to make it easier for a young family with a ski boat to join a club or private lake, enter tournaments and enjoy the lifesytle many of us know and love. The rule book has drastically expanded in the last 17 years I have been a regular judge. The impositions on the lake owner continue to increase. The insurance regulations continue to change. The technical requirements for tournament sites are continually becoming more smothering. We need to be eliminating the barriers of entry into our sport, not telling drivers who want to drive during practice (not even in a tournament) that they must submit to a background check and have attained trained driver status in order to pull their kids in the slalom course at 20mph on a private lake with no one else around in order to meet insurance requirements.

USAWS as a whole, had a net loss of 438 active members last year. Of that net loss 362 of them were AWSA skiers. Show skiers added 141, and Disabled added 2. The rest of the disciplines lost members. I am sure some of it is economy related, but it looks like we are driving members away, not attracting them.

[501Brandon]

I did some checking yesterday myself as I think our particular club is in a unique situation since we have 20 members and not one of us carries any type of rating within USA WS Guidelines... After a few emails and a few phone calls I dont think any of this is as bad as it appears or sounds. What I understand is that for us to properly insure and conduct sanctioned practices all personnel who intend on driving must be a trained driver... In order to be a Trained Driver we need to sanction and host a Clinic. This is not a bad thing I dont think especially for a group who has no rated drivers. We can all learn something I am sure of that. The Motor Vehicle Report is what it is. Our objective was to start conducting Grass Roots events at our site this year so we were going in this direction anyway with a few members getting Trained Driving and a couple guys getting Safety Trained. We want to see some interest in the sport around here and feel there is a huge gap between the weekender and the C Class skier. We hope our club can be the perverbial bridge locally anyway...

[boarditup]

I passed the on-line trained driver class. I have the card in my wallet. I have also passed the USCG Nav-Rules exam - closed book. This is the same exam used for a licensed captain in the under 500 gross ton class. As a USCG officer charged with marine safety and as designated Investigating Officer, I had to know the rules. I also spent time serving in all positions on a tugboat and then on the Eagle (sailing tall ship). As a teen, I passed the Michigan DNR boater safety class. There was nothing in the USAWS class unique to waterskiing that was not also taught in another forum.

 

My point is the current setup is what you would find from the USCGA or Power Squadron course. We should have a hands-on practical that should be demonstrated to another USAWS member. The skills should be towing specific: pulling up a skier, dropping a skier, recovering a fallen skier, basic course driving, basic open water pattern driving, show ski patterns (yes, it is valuable to know), double up driving (again, good to know), etc. This does not have to be a formal clinic with an administrative burden - just a driver and another member who sign off on a demonstrated skill.

[jdarwin]

With all of the monies AWSA sends to USAWS thru membership dues, club dues and sanction fees, perhaps AWSA could get a "grant" from USAWS to pay the $13 for each of our (AWSA) 800+ drivers. Or, perhaps we can reallocate the $34,000 we do get to cover some or all of this cost.

[h2oski]

Many have mentioned tournaments, the coverd practice thing is huge. Our club went through all of the hoops last year to have all of our practice sets and tournaments covered. It sounds like the Driver Training is being added this year. I'm sure that a lot of clubs have not in the past and won't do everything to have their practice sets covered. This is where the insurance company is exposed. Where else can you pay $100 a year dues and have insurance for every set you ski on your home site and every sanctioned tournament? I hope a skier never encounters a "tipsy" driver at a tournament, but a club member that may have a problem with alcohol, could show up on a saturday afternoon and offer to give you a pull? Sounds like these are situations they are trying to eliminate. If your site elects to not participate in the covered practice thing its probably business as usual. Our club has 25 families,

you do observe things that would indicate that a trained driver course would be a good thing. I agree with Joe, AWSA or possibly the state federations should step up to help with the fees for the tournament drivers.

[dave2ball]

So when do the new standards take affect? How available are the courses and when are the new clinics going to be held?

[jdarwin]

I sanctioned a trained driver clinic March 10th for my club. In order to drive our club boat, you will have to pay $15 to attend this clinic.

[clemsondave]

We have required all of our members hold a Trained Driver status for several years now. Instead of doing two courses/tests, why don't they just expand what is covered in the Trained Driver's clinic??

[Dusty]

I will follow this up with details from my agenciy's records people. I do know NCIC records checks are serious business. I am required recertification for access every two years. There are laws that govern why, how and when the checks are allowed to be conducted. A log is kept. Non-compliance merits a visit from the FBI. Reasons for conducting them are very restricted. Things like on-going criminal investigations, missing persons checks, firearm related issues and EMPLOYMENT. I am sure that some company can google names and find some available public records, but I doubt they will be a true criminal records check.

There are also laws governing where the reports are kept and who has access to them. There appears to be a protocol requiring a specific named person, as contact, archiver and auditor. Dissemination of the contents of a records check is generally forbidden. Disposal of the records is also mandated and conducted in specific ways, at specific times. An insuror is likely NOT entiltled to be privy to the actual contents of NCIC checks. They might be allowed to be informed of the check and a negative response or a 'clear' status.

I am still at a loss as what the proposed rule will address. A records check a year, month, week or yesterday will not determine if a driver is impaired today. Perhaps we should 'police' the tournament when it is under way? To me it's no different from finding a nail sticking up from a deck board- fix it right then- does it matter if it wasn't there yesterday or will be tomorrow when everyone is gone? Hammer it or remove it, and move on.

Re: AWSA insurance- perhaps things have changed, but you don't have to look very hard around our sport to find at least the anecdotal descriptions of the inadequacies of our 'tournament' insurance, and the seemingly incompatibility with our primary care providers. I don't think I'm going to rely on it, unless I really, really have to.

[The_MS]

Try working in the aviation field. You get probed daily by the TSA, DOT and local airports.

Piss, booze and DMV checks happen daily.

[ForrestGump]

Yes, but you're not volunteering to sling baggage either. :)

 

[h2oski]

@Dusty Re: AWSA insurance, agree its more of a supplemental insurance to your regular carrier. If you get injured and it helps with a deductable, mines $2000, it would be worth it, like you I'm not counting on it.

[Horton]

Personally I don't have a lot of energy or passion around this issue. It might be very important but I just have other things to worry about. My recommendation to USAWaterSki is as follows:

 

The first lesson of public relations is to be proactive. If the organization is going to make change then the organization should control the conversation. Most of the membership that is aware of this change learned about it on this website. Uncertainty and lack of clarification breeds disinformation and discontentment. USAWaterSki has website and blast e-mail capability that can be used to address these concerns in a timely fashion.

 

[Jody_Seal]

Thanks John your web site now has proved that BOS is a leader in information for the competitive water ski world.

 

Talking to Directors that were at the AWSA winter board meeting this whole subject was presented by Grew with absolutely no report or written information for our leadership to discuss or ask questions just told in a verbal report that USAWS would save 50K a year on insurance and that was that. Now the low down has come out and it turns out we as AWSA are footing the bill for problems that exist in the other sport groups.

This is a far reaching problem through out the organization with ramifications that will effect the overall health and growth of membership.

Their are already drivers, promo owners and sites within this region that are re-thinking what or if they will participate in the future. The organization has failed us in their attempt to communicate their intentions to membership before implementing the policy. apparently they missed the class on public relations!

[Dusty]

Amen Jody!

 

+1

[Mrs_MS]

@ShaneH

When in charge of 400+ "bag slingers", your required to check on them:)

Checking on them requires going out on the ramp:)

Going out on the ramp means you get tested just like everyone else:)

Yes...that's Aviation! Not fun!

 

[ForrestGump]

You missed my point, Kim. That he was getting paid, not a volunteer like all the drivers.

[Mrs_MS]

Pardon me, My bad

[Razorskier1]

I find the training requirements to be the worst form of bureacracy. I ski a public lake and a private site. I've been driving for over 30 years and am very particular and careful about every aspect of that job. As a skier, I wouldn't let anyone drive who hadn't passed muster with me. I would bet everyone else on this thread does the same. I am not a certified driver, just a guy who believes in watching, learning, and improving all the time. We have never sanctioned a practice on either of my sites. Seems like the mother ship is hitting a thumbtack with a sledge hammer.

[jdarwin]

Bump! Their should be some communication coming out of USAWS soon in regard to this. Better late than never? We'll see.

[jdarwin]

Bump! Their should be some communication coming out of USAWS soon in regard to this. Better late than never? We'll see.

[ForrestGump]

I'm over being all bent out of shape over this. I'll continue to drive until they tell me I can't and then I'll just politely give them the finger and tell em to go pound sand.