Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 11, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 Wrote this on a long train ride back in April but kept forgetting to post. Recently a few folks have requested it. So here it is! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oDlyJi8MRdF9t8uQcEMCUEGsivhQ2tP7qOO6HfPgCDg/edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 11, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 @Than Bogan, With your permission, I am going to link to this thread in my request for fundamentals thread so folks can find it that way too, K? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 11, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 @Than, Oh, and thank you very much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 11, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 @sunvalleylaw Please do! And you're welcome. I truly hope this helps some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 9400 Posted July 11, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 Very nicely written. I could have used that 20 years ago. Shoot, I could have used that early this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfennell Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Thanks @Than Bogan, hopefully I can apply this to get through 36 -15 because I am having almost all the problems that it describes and I have not been thinking about my stacked position as much lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jordan Posted July 11, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 Than...really good job! That article passes on very important information with a great deal of clarity, well done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller fu_man Posted July 11, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 @Than Great article. This is exactly where I'm at. I'm comforted by the fact that I have been working with these thoughts, in this direction, and with the practice that you have suggested. I'm discouraged by how long it is taking me to master this but I have started to feel it (unfortunately not very consistently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 11, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 @fu_man Thanks. Do not get discouraged! I skied in a very poor position for about 15 years (age 5 to age 20) and so I had a LOT to un-learn when I first started getting into tournament slalom. I worked on almost nothing but leverage position for at least 5 years, and believe me I still haven't "mastered it" -- every shortening is a new opportunity to watch your weak leverage position crumble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 11, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 @Than, just getting into really reading it now, on a short break on a busy work day. Very cool! I will learn much from this. Nicely written. I also am very analytical, being a lawyer (wow, I actually admitted that?), and a ski coach. I like how you describe the literal and figurative foundational qualities of a good leveraged position. The first thing that is opening my eyes is the difference between cross course speed, and down course speed, which causes slack. I had not thought about it that way before. Outside of the course, historically, if I am skiing well, I don't get lots of slack. In the course, it has often been a different matter. Elements of Position - first thing that hits me is the soft knees. I have tried to have this for years. Usually do ok, but can maybe be over stiff at times if I am pulling hard, and again, if I am in a hurry to finish my turn, I can tend to lock out my legs and push the ski around, rather than let it do its job. Hips not bent - I get that in pulling, but I see some variations of what I would call a "chair position" in some of the pics on the BOS site. I suppose that is what big dawgs do once they are big dawgs, and us mere mortals should try to maintain good position first and get to that stuff later. As in snow skiing, my students are not Bode Miller, and they should not try to copy Bode whilst developing fundamentals. That is all that I can really analyze or comment on for now, though I can see that as I get back into it, your sections on finding your position on the ground (reminds me of something I saw on an old Gordon Rathbun tape a long time ago), and symptoms to look for etc. are really going to help me find my position especially on a new ski. Off the top, I really like the little section of being open to the boat in a practical way rather than worrying about being entirely square to the boat. That makes good sense. Thanks again, Than (I saw somewhere else you prefer this to Nathaniel), for sharing this with us! I personally hope you find time to write at least some of your other chapters, particularly "Reach and Reconnect", "Pre-Turn", and "Handle Control", but really the whole enchilada. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted July 11, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 @sunvalleylaw - What you have to be careful of when looking at those pics you referenced of the Big Dawg's "sitting in a chair" is that it's a snapshot in time. Of one specific spot. Their base position isn't that. They're only letting the knees rebound and dampen the shock as the hydrodynamic pressure releases the ski from one edge to the other. So as soon as the ski comes back down onto it's turning edge, they're still standing tall in a stacked position. Also, when that rebound does occur, you can still draw a line from their ankles up through their hips and through their shoulders and...... wait for it........ their core never falls behind the handle while this process happens. Big difference from getting bent at the hips where the hips end up trailing a line drawn from the ankles to the shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 11, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 @ShaneH, very good point and well said. I get that explanation. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 11, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 11, 2012 @ShaneH Exactly. Perhaps I should point that out somewhere in my piece, as I bet that is a common source of confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashman Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 @Than absolutely awesome. And thanks for supporting the 15 off club so much. I'm always trying to remember that everybody has different rates of progression and that I'm not some kid starting all my habits from scratch- I have 25+ years of bad habits to "undo" and it's great to hear some perspective from somebody who's been there. It also occurs to me that most skiers never even try a course and that most of the guys on this site are the "top one percenters" of slalom skiing. I've noticed that at this point in my skiing about every blown pass starts with bent arms/pulling on the handle with my biceps. Better go hit the course tonight and work on some straight arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted July 12, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 12, 2012 @Than I love this... I think that i need to re-evaluate my position now!! Reading this, Asher came to mind the way you were describing what you want to look like when you are across the wakes. Tall, knees with a little bend, ankles bent, arms down and straight, shoulders "open" to the boat. Please finish this!!! good stuff!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GaryWilkinson Posted July 12, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 12, 2012 @Than. Tremendous article my technical buddy. I too am into the details of the sport we enjoy and your explanations of a key part to good short line slalom were righT and easy to understand. Great stuff! Where did you say that slalom manual is available? Lol Eagerly awaiting more chapters... Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 12, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 12, 2012 Crap. My worst fear is confirmed: People actually like it! Now I'm gonna feel guilty if I don't make more of it. But it's not that easy to find a 7 hour block like a train ride to DC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfennell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Where should I be edge changing learning 36/-15. I seem to come into 1 with too much down course speed and have a hell of a time eating the hit at the finish of the turn out of 1. If I get 1 good I have a decent chance to get to 4, but I still haven't run the course because I so rarely get a good shot at it. I think the problem has to do with the amount and direction of speed that I get into 1 but I cant figure it out. I am running 34 mph almost 90% and have never run 36 yet, I got 4.5 once and 4 about 6 times now, probably 50 attempts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted July 12, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 12, 2012 @sunvalleylaw - take a look at the Nate Smith video set. ( ) In particular try to pause the video the moment the lean starts. This is the position that Than is writing about. Even at -41, Nate has to hit this position to get to each following buoy. Then, try to pause the video right off the second wake. This is the middle of the edge change. This does look like a "chair" position. There are many reasons why this is the correct position at this time. But, to go back to Than's primary point - it is the position at start of the lean that determines the position throughout the lean which serves as the foundation of slalom success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted July 12, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 12, 2012 @Than wrote: " * Knees soft. I hesitate slightly to use the word “bent” here, because the degree of bending can vary quite a lot among successful skiers, and over-bending can make it impossible to achieve other elements of this position. They key is that your legs are not locked, so that you can use the largest muscles in your body (most of which lie between your knees and your navel) to apply pressure to the ski. Note that to maintain balance with knees soft, you’ll have to also bend at your ankles. Some skiers find it useful to focus on the ankle bend itself rather than the knee bend. * Hips not bent. Well, bent as little as comfortable. The less you resemble a sitting position, the better. From your knees to your head, you want to be at tall as possible." Than - I find that skiers stuck in this phase rarely have their knees locked straight when crossing the wake. Thus, I focus significantly on ankles, and mostly on the front ankle. I tell them that when you are standing and I say, bend your knees, your body automatically bends the hips, too. This is what we want to avoid - hip bend. So, I have them bend their front ankle. The result is that the knees will soften automatically due to the front ankle bend. Further, the back ankle and knee move too due to the focus on the front ankle. So, lean = no bend at the hips/waist, but front ankle bend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 12, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 12, 2012 @kfennel That's kind of a different topic, but personally I have no clue where to do edge changes. I'm not a skier who does a conscious edge change -- the edge change is a result of other things I am focusing on. (Or I assume it is -- my ski seems to change edges somewhere between approaching 1 and approaching 2 :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted July 12, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 12, 2012 Oh, and I totally agree - the one thing that is most consistently found in all top skiers is their lean position at the 1st wake. There are many, drastic variations elsewhere, but they all have a solid lean position as they approach the first wake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted July 12, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 12, 2012 @kfennel Rossi told me once that the edge change isn't something you do. It's something that happens based on things that you've done prior to it. When max pressure against the ski is achieved, the ski will edge change. If max pressure is achieved early, the ski rolls too early. If max pressure against the ski is achieved late, the edge change happens late. Ideally, you should edge change like Seth does in his 30mph 15 off video. That's because he's taking a lot of angle to the white water while in good body position and the ski releases at centerline and starts it's outward arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted July 12, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 12, 2012 @kfennel if you are coming into 1 with too much down course speed your issue isn't your edge change but your gate. I believe (without seeing you ski) that you need to be much wider at the gates. If you are fast at 1 you are too narrow. Get good width at the pullout, work hard behind the boat through the whitewater after the second wake then change edges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfennell Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 So I did as much as I could to keep my arms straight and keep stacked across the wake today, even didnt wear my clinchers cause they make it hard to keep my fingertips on the handle and my arms curl as a result... and... I finally ran 36 + got to 2 at 22 while pretty tired. I think I will probably get to 4 at 22 pretty fast and then I will be back to the same problem with my 1 ball :) I guess I just need to work on what you said chef and try to make sure my gate is getting me as much outbound speed as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted July 13, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 13, 2012 Awesome timing @Than! This is precisely what I was told to focus on last weekend. Are there any tricks or cues that might assist in getting stacked as you head for the gates? I've taken to squeezin' my peaches and looking peripherally to make sure my ski is between me and the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 13, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 13, 2012 @kfennell That is completely awesome! Way to go! 36 is quite a beast. It's huge to get through that. -22 is actually not THAT much harder. Then at -28 you'll need to learn some new tricks. Getting high on the gate is a great start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashman Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 @Than I'm really trying to work on this believe me I am. I feel like I have it figured out on dry land, as long as the handle is hooked up to my trailer ball I'm a slalom superstar but when I try to apply it on the water I just feel like I'm leaning back onto my back foot and riding the tail of the ski especially as I come out of the turn- any tips about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfennell Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 For me I just think about putting 100% of my weight on my front foot, I am skiing "wrong" foot forward so I have to feel like I am 100% of my weight on my left foot to be even close to balanced. Hard shell on the front foot helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted July 13, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 13, 2012 @crashman Think about making yourself 6 inches tallerby straightening your back leg more. In seeing your video in another thread, your position is that of someone almost sitting in a chair with your butt about a foot behind your knees and ankles. Knee bend is fine, but any time you bend your knees your ankles must also flex forward otherwise you end up with your butt back. If you were to make yourself taller, it might take some of that knee bend/butt drop away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller davemac Posted July 13, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 13, 2012 Crash...We had a clinic at the lake recently w/ a well known pro. On a free ski session, he ripped it up with his rear foot out of the RTP. Sadly, looked better than us "students" w/ both feet in. Might be a "drill" to try, to establish some feel/control with that front foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 13, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 13, 2012 Wow, I haven't skied with my rear foot out since I used to have to drag a leg to get the ski planing behind small boats a long time ago. Sounds like an interesting drill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted July 13, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 13, 2012 I coach a lot of skiers who are starting to cross the wakes properly or working on their first slalom course pass. I find that their muscle memory is very short lived. Thus, I am a big supporter of using all of the skiing time to drive good behaviors... Thus, always be in Leverage Position when riding/coasting before and after the course or waiting to turn at the end of the lake, when coasting to a stop, etc. These are perfect times to have perfect position with ankles, knees, hips, and correct weight/balance on the ski. Never "rest" your position when you are waiting for the course. Make this Leverage Position your "resting" position on your ski. Plus, you don't have to be concentrating on anything during this "coasting" time, so why not 1000% focus on body position? I see so many skiers relax to poor position -back foot weight, bent at the waist, etc. When you think about the number of seconds a skier spends leaning vs the number of seconds that skier spends before and after the gates, they really are missing out on an opportunity to build good habits. The adage is "Practice makes permanent." Every time you ski with poor position, you have undo this by skiing 5 times with proper position. So, make proper position your always position. When it starts to suffer, back off or reset. Keep the balance of your time on your ski in good position vs. poor position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashman Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I feel like a dunce. You guys keep telling me the same stuff and eveytime I think I'm doing it better I take more video and I'm really not. In two weeks I have a vacation coming up- might be time to get away from the buoys and do some free skiing for a week. @davemac there's a guy at our club that says to do that but my front (left) ankle is already half wrecked and I think I'm only one injury away from being a surfer- I've been afraid to do this for fear of twisting it @ShaneH thanks I'll try it some more @ToddL good points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfennell Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 This is just a personal theory that I would love to test on myself but I am afraid its too late but: If you are putting alot of back foot pressure and you are LFF, maybe you are supposed to be RFF? Get someone to push you from behind and see what foot you step forward with when you are surprised? What foot do you kick with? I wish i would have changed to RFF when I started skiing the course, I still feel awkward getting weight on my left. Note: This may be awful advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller bdougherty Posted July 13, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 13, 2012 @than, thanks for the article, I started blushing when you described this level of skiers. It sounded like you were describing me. My tournament pd is 1@28 off 36mph. Lately my 36 15off and 22off felt late and fast. I was sure the solution was my turns, after reading the article I have practiced the stacked position on dry land. Tried it in the course at 34 and immediately felt a huge difference. The key for me was straight arms. Skied a bunch of 36 22off today without a miss and made 4@28 twice (best practice score of the season). Thanks for thinking of us intermediate guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted July 13, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 13, 2012 @kfennell When determining front foot for a skier, I use all of the following methods. My opinion is that we steer/ride the ski with the front foot, so the dominant or balance foot should be in front. It has nothing to do with "stronger" foot/leg, but many beginners think that is what it is about. 1) Skier's Salute - while on Combo skis, the skier lifts one ski up while skiing on the other one. Then the skier switches to the other foot raised. After going back and forth a few times, the skier will know which ski he or she can hold out of the water the longest with the most balance. The other foot (the one on the water) is the front foot. 2) High Step Up - on dry land/dock, etc, have the skier stand right up against a chair or table or something stable that is about 18" to 30" tall. Ask the skier to step up onto the that item. The skier will instinctively step up with the balance or dominant foot. This is because the skier will move from a stable position on the floor to an unstable position as they push up with the step leg lifting their weight up to the higher level. The foot they reach up with is the front foot. 3) The unexpected Step - in this method the skier should not know what is about to happen. On dry land with a clear area in front, have the skier stand facing the clear area with his or her feet together and his or her arms out to the side. Position yourself behind the skier. Ask them a question like, "are your arms out straight" just to get them distracted, while they are answering push the skier forward abruptly so that the skier must step forward to regain balance. Instinctively the skier will step forward with their dominant or balance foot. This foot is their front foot. Sometimes a skier is quite symmetrically balanced and can give mixed results. Then, I do all three tests and the second one using a few different stable objects to step up on. I then, take the the foot that is indicated as the balance foot the most often across all of the tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 13, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 13, 2012 @bdougherty AWESOME!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfennell Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 @ToddL I agree that the dominant leg should be forward, but realistically for most people this is also their stronger leg, especially me, I feel like my right is way way stronger then my left, and it is definitely my dominant as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller slalomboy96 Posted July 14, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 14, 2012 @than Thanks for the artical, I have read so much and watch so much on 32-41 off skiing, its awesome to see this put together for 15-28 off skiers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted July 14, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 14, 2012 @kfennell Yep. Often the dominant balance foot also turns out to be the strongest one, but sometimes it doesn't. Rather, I was just pointing out that balance vs. strength is the better way to find the front foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller andjules Posted July 20, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 20, 2012 Great article, Than. You hint at thinking about the ankles, but @ToddL took the words out of my mouth: Thus, I focus significantly on ankles, and mostly on the front ankle. We all know you can only think about so many things. When I used to teach trick skiers (a long, long time ago), I realized that thinking about bending the front ankle made so many other good things happen without having to work at it. The back ankle bends by default, the knees bend forward by default, the hips (mostly) stay up by default. It's mental efficiency that works for most people. My 2¢. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted July 20, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 20, 2012 I slowed down the boat and have been working solely on this since @Than Bogan first posted this thread. For the past two months, I haven't been able to get to three ball at 22' off. Yesterday I decided to run a tournament set and ran early and wide all the way to the six ball - where I began my celebration a little too early and missed the handle! But it felt smooth and easy. Thanks for getting me back on track Than! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 20, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 20, 2012 @jipster43 AWESOME!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Than, Thanks for the great article! Boy Howdy did I see myself. STUBBORN I have been skiing for 30 years and still working on 34/28. Proper Ski setup and a carbon graphite ski have helped. Now I have the ski finishing the turn under me and can sometimes be early to the next buoy. The sides have balanced-out better. I used to really be a one-sided skier. I think if I can consistently get into a strong position behind the boat rather than pulling early (off the buoy) I will l get earlier and wider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 22, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 22, 2012 Based on my skiing this weekend (at the easiest site ever, no less), it is obvious I am entirely unqualified to give anyone any advice about skiing. But I guess I'm happy that I seem to be helping some people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ntq206 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Man, this sport can be so damned frustrating. I had my best set of my life followed by a set that looked like I went back to a year ago. Went from a total high to being so disappointed. Than, your treatise is excellent and sound advice - I just have to stop over-thinking it now when I'm on the water. If I think too much, I start to feel robotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted July 22, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 22, 2012 What I have noticed, is this does not only apply to 15 off... When I get into 32 off (every set) (I know this is not exactly the point you are making with the atricle) after my turn at 1 I get pulled forward and bent over and in a terrible pulling position making getting to 2 ball a ton of extra work. I know I will have 32 as an easy pass when I figure out how to just get out of my turn in a good position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted July 22, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 22, 2012 @ilivetoski When this was happening to me, it was because I was coming back to the handle before my hip. Once I learned how to bring the hip back in with the shoulders trailing it, I stopped getting crushed and bent over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted July 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 23, 2012 @ShaneH I preach this alot when I coach... Be more patient? Let the ski come around more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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