Chris Rossi -- gate and angle

[Razorskier1]

http://waterskimag.com/features/2012/12/03/learn-from-one-of-the-best-we-dissect-chris-rossis-technique/

 

This is a great little article but I really liked the pictures. First, look at where the boat is when he is turning in for his gate. Throughout all of my ski history I was turning in when the nose of the boat was about 5 feet from the gate. This fall I changed that and am now turning in much earlier (the left gate and one ball coordinates) and have felt like it is a game changer.

 

Second, and this one is for @Than_Bogan, look at the angle from the overhead picture as he passes through the wakes. Perhaps you could measure that angle and tell me what it is? There have been previousl threads where people have discussed the amount of angle you need to generate through the wakes -- this might be a good sample.

[Than_Bogan]

I look forward to reading this carefully at some point.

 

Short version: I can't do much for ya.

 

Long version:

 

Although I could easily measure the angle in the photograph (so can you with a protractor up to your screen), it appears to me that this view is not quite orthographic -- in regular English the camera is at an angle. This type of perspective distortion can significantly alter the angle that is seen in the image. If you can get somebody to tell me the angle of the camera's pointing, then some math can be done to convert the angles in the photograph to the true angles. In fact, some image processing could be done to "rectify" the image and show it almost exactly as it would have looked from an orthographic (directly overhead) view.

 

If there were some more buoys in the photo, there might actually be enough information for me to deduce the exact camera position -- we do this sort of thing regularly when calibrating machine vision systems. But I don't think there are enough things with a known relationship to be able to infer the angle of the photo accurately.

 

Sorry.

[Than_Bogan]

That said, it's obviously closer to 45 than to 90, which is (to me) expected.

[Ed_Johnson]

The gate should not be a "Constant" Angle...If done correctly, you should be "Increasing" Angle as you go through the gates.

[Than_Bogan]

@Ed_Johnson I notice "increasing" in quotation marks. Can you explain more? I think a literal increase in angle at that point is nearly impossible, at least on a short line, due to the geometry. (I can say more if anyone wants me to, but trying to avoid mega-geekery if nobody is interested.) In fact, Jamie wanted me to make a point of decreasing my ski's angle as I crossed the centerline, lest I ski away from the handle as it (again due to the geometry of very short lines) advances up-course. For my style, this has been a revelation at -38 (and even at -39, though it only allows me to turn 1 -- baby steps!).

[Ed_Johnson]

Are you kidding me...Are you really able to accept the fact that you would turn in for the gate and just hold that angle...Even the most basic of principle talks about a progressive gate, which means increasing load and increasing angle.

 

I am sorry here if I piss some people off, and they all click on the dislike button, but I am telling you, it is of paramount importance, at short line skiing, to cast out "Away" from the handle, at the edge change, to gain the utmost in outbound direction...This is the essence of the Reverse C, and the ability to be wide and early.

 

Is it easy ??? No, it is the hardest thing to accomplish....As Chet Raley told me over ten years a go, "Ski to the Beach."....... I am still working on that, because you feel like you are skiing AWAY from the course. AWAY from the buoy....Your subconscious will go crazy.

 

When you find yourself "Passing" one ball inbound, and not turning at one ball, you will totally understand it. It feels like magic..The key is to repeat it 6 times in a row.

 

I apologize for the rant, but this has been an ongoing quest.

 

 

[A_B]

It can't be that hard to figure out by "wasting" a few passes on trial and error.

Try one pass pulling like a "pus_y", and then try one trying to lower your leading shoulder and grunt as you go through the gates.

 

Which one works best for you?

 

My thought is that it is more perception of gaining more angle by trying harder, and you probably maintain the angle you started with, and the other is you think you are light on the line and maintaing angle, but you actually lose some angle and get pulled up quicker and need to carry the handle out longer.

 

Either can work, as Mike Kjellander demonstrated that even at the very top, there is room for artistic expression.

[Gloersen]

The timing of the change of direction towards the gates described by @razorskier really does help to avoid attempting those late turn-in/load & go gates which make it difficult to maintain out bound direction at short line.

 

Getting “stacked out wide” as @Horton has described is critical imo, because once the boat takes over, if not in good, stacked position; it’s too late, but establishing that position with minimal acceleration. By just maintaining that solid core connection, the “geometry” as @Than_Bogan describes will build line tension to the second wake.

 

This older article (paragraph 6) by Rossi emphasizes this mindset; “turn, turn, turn all the way to the second wake” (RHGB). This might perhaps be conceptualized by some as “ever increasing angle”.

 

Rossi's Key to Slalom Gates

 

Controlling that line tension past the second wake is what I take from the @Ed_Johnson perspective. If line tension is not controlled & maintained past the second wake (the “reverse C” concept), then one is along for the ride; casting out wide into a good reach then becomes formidable.

 

This sport encompasses a great deal of “conceptualizations” unique to every individual. Those with successful results tend to have a convergence of similar technique. It’s great to have this forum to knock heads and “see” what others conceptualize. Although skiing “mindless” at times seems to yield the best results.

 

[Than_Bogan]

I don't assume I know anything. I just try to ask questions when I am not understanding. Gloerson has really hit the nail on the head as far as different ways of understanding the same idea.

[Rich]

I think I'll stir it up a little for you all. Back when I was learning to ski shortline (in the 70's) I would follow what the top pros of the day "said" which was as the line got shorter you waited longer to go, that made me fast and made it impossible to maintain angle off the 2nd wake.

(I also think that back in those days the top pros were all big strong guys, myself being 5'7" 160

could not resist the boat off the 2nd wake with the technique of the day) Based upon observation of top pros I watched it looked like as the line got shorter they would turn in earlier & earlier as the line got shorter. No one said they did this, however it is what I observed. When I tried this approach it worked. (it took me 20 friggin years to figure it out) At 35 and longer I can wait later and still make a pretty good pass. I believe this is because at 28, 32 35 the skier doesn't really generate much speed differential between the line lengths. 38 is the game changer. I now go much earlier on the gate in. I call it "roll in" I start to roll in an entire boat length before the tip of the boat gets to the gate. As I "roll in" I'm free of the boat, the boat catches me at the white water, that is where I really resist the boat. (never adding lean, just resisting) I still fight the urge to want to "go hard" early from the KLP days. At 28 & 32 it feels like I'm literally doing nothing, its really boring to ski those passes and it really does feel good to start harder earlier, however I now know from experience that by "rolling in" on my easy passes I set up the timing for 38 & 39. I also learned something from Wayne Gretsky the great hockey player. He said he was better than everyone else because he didn't go to where the puck was, but to where the puck was going to be. Now the slalom course is stationary and we are moving, we have to always be ahead of the course. By watching video of really great skiers with a video camera on thier head was a real eye opener also because I saw how much earlier they were from the eyes view than myself. It all starts at the gate and going early, a full boat length early is important. Also note as the line gets shorter you will get the angle you need from white water to white water just because the rope is shorter. So GO EARLIER and just resist. Once you get it, it really isn't so hard. (it actually makes slalom easy) Keep all movements to a minimum, a 2 handed gate is less movement, less risk, and the turn in for the gate is a much different turn than a buoy turn, much less speed on the turn in. I know I have rambled abit on this, I hope my observations and experience help some of you to avoid the pitfall I had for so many years of mastering a good gate. I also hope you don't all think I'm too off topic!

 

To Summarize.

 

1:Pull out slow and easy, wide enough to be free of the boat pull.

 

2: Stand up tall in a stack position at the apex with the load on the left arm.

 

3: Roll in easy, when the tip of the boat is an entire boat length from the gate.

 

4: Resist the urge to lean or get caught by the boat untill you are at the white water.

 

5: Once in the white water only resist the forward momentum of the boat. Keep equal pressure on both feet to keep the ski level, bend you knees, and point the knees in the direction you are going allowing your entire body COM to go a little lower so you can keep from getting "caught" by the boat too soon.

 

6: push the handle low and keep elbows tight to the body, hands close to body

 

7: Keep the handle control off the 2nd wake (this gets harder as the line gets shorter)

 

As the skier comes off the 2nd wake they will naturally compress from the trough and the angle generated.

 

As the skier comes off the white water with handle close, more pressure on the right arm as the skier moves outbound, the skier will start to stand up to a stacked position. This allows the skier to stand over the ski, put more ski in the water on the preturn, and start to ski over the line, (this will create the reverse C position as the ski changes edge and also will look like the "pull up" described by many coaches, moving toward the apex, and getting "free of the boat" at the 1 ball.

 

If I have put into words what I "feel" and "observe" as a skier on the gate & approach into 1 ball.

 

 

 

[A_B]

Rich, I agree with what you are saying. At 38 off, it feels like you do nothing as you turn in, but don't you think you have to "work" harder to maintain direction as you get behind the pull of the boat, and that is what people perceive to be the "increasing" part of the equation?

 

There are some exceptions from top pros. Nate is one that loads really hard initially and looks like he is changing edges in the middle of the wake. CP is somewhat different, and holds longer.

 

I think there is more than one correct way to get it done, as there are many ways to turn a ski.

[Razorskier1]

@Rich nailed it. I spent years going late to the gate with tons of load. -35 and longer it actually feels pretty cool, because I was about 40 feet ahead of the ball and coming in on the backside like a rocket. Problem came at -38. Just this summer I have gone to what Rich suggests at the urging of a fellow baller. I also skied this way with another friend in Florida. We are both big guys. I'm 6ft and 200lbs and strong as an ox, and Jeff is 3 inches taller and an ox. Both of us are doing the same thing. Gradual roll in well before the boat gets to the gates, then just resist, or "block" as some people call it. Very hard to convince yourself to do it because it initially "feels" like it won't give you enough angle. Here's the difference. By taking a more moderate angle and resisting against the load, you maintain your outbound angle better off of the second wake and end up wide, early and in control of your speed. Using this approach you use less energy against the boat, but hold it for longer because YOU CAN. If you load the line hard and grab tons of angle through the wakes, forget controlling the handle after the second wake -- the boat will take it away. I call this "lighter for longer". When you take this approach you maintain outbound longer, your edge change is slower and more controlled, and you feel like you are so in control and early that it is sort of silly.

 

Contrast that with my old style. I turned in later and quicker. I kept adding load to the line all the way to the second wake where I would "hit it" one last time with a good hard load. Then I'd pop up, swing the ski and go. Here's the issue. By loading the rope and trying to keep grabbing more and more angle through the lean, I stretched the line to the max. Then when I changed edges, the rope would do a bunge and pull me QUICKLY to the inside edge and I'd lose my outbound direction. Now, like I said, this can feel really cool and it works for the longer lines, but I don't think there are very many of us that could make it work at -38 and beyond. There are some, I'm sure, but not many. Things just happen too fast and the physics of the loading and unloading work against you. This approach may work for Perfect Pass Classic or hand driving, and may work for really strong, really athletic, gifted guys.

 

My revelation this year was that I can run -38 with almost no energy at all if I stay focused on being lighter for longer and resist the temptation to "try to get early" by leaning hard against a 330hp inboard with ZO.

[Rich]

Being in top physical condition is very important ie: strength to weight ratio. Nate is super thin and has great strength to weight ratio. Watch Nate again, he loads white water to white water. He does ski early and changes edges somewhat earlier than some other pros. (Nate is super effecient) I personally was a big proponent of super early edge change, however after watching my own video of 28-39 which is on this site, I was changing edges to early because I was loading too early. After watching myself and comparing the top pros I will be working on white water to white water load in 2013. I plan on being in 5% better physical condition in 2013 which will enable me to make it appear easier. (better strength to weight ratio) I plan on working on the "roll in" concept to really take advantage of the pendulum effect it creates. (white water to white water) This should make 39 a consistent pass. What I see with the top pros is that they really are similar in the approach, and the more effeceient they are the further they get. I think Nate skis more in front of the slalom course and anticpates each movement earlier or better than anyone else. I think Nate uses the momentum of the boat better than everyone else. Yes there are lots of ways to do it. I want to do it the most effecient way possible. STYLE is ineffienct in my view, its about being effecient, lets call it "NO STYLE" style, and the more efficient a skier becomes, the more each skier will like like another efficient skier. The exception will be which foot you have forward, that will change the way a skier "appears" as they go through the slalom course. (one side will be more efficent depending on which foot is forward) So what I'm always looking for is to become as effecient as possible. Too get around as many buoys as possible as consistently as possible.

[Rich]

I think what Nate is able to do with his body type is be more efficient than Parrish with his leverage position, balance of both feet on the ski, getting the ski up on edge without pushing.

 

[Rich]

@razor good for you, you totally get it! Now "work on less" and get more buoys!!! Slalom isn't what most people "think" it is. And it really isn't what you "see" in lots of pictures (camara angle plays tricks) and it isn't what you think you "see" from the boat. Always think of what you would "see" from overhead. Awww... now I'm giving away all the "secrets"

 

[Rich]

My experience is that a lot of really "gifted" atheletes just do it. As less than "gifted" I have to really understand it all. I'm hoping that at 56 I can really put it together and outlast 'em! LMAO,

we'll see. One thing I have realized is, its really easy if you do it "effeciently" and impossible if you don't at shortline ie 38 & 39.

[Razorskier1]

@Rich -- I'll be 50 this year and I feel I'm still learning and getting better. Efficiency is key now because the body won't take the abuse of "old school" skiing. So good efficiency is key to longevity. I see guys like you and I keep telling myself I have lots more years of getting better! Thanks for chipping in with your thoughts -- always helpful!

[Rich]

Yes, thank god for perfect pass, high powered boats, and carbon skis, it has equaled the playing field so you don't have to be 6'2" 200lbs and strong as an ox.l

[Than_Bogan]

I've got the 6'2" part down; how's 170 lbs and strong as a damselfly? :)

[Rich]

@Than_Bogan LMAO!!!

 

 

[Razorskier1]

@Than_Bogan -- trust me -- you're better off at 170 than at 201 (my weight this morning).

[A_B]

I'd take either!

[Than_Bogan]

DAMSELFLY POWER!!!!

[Deep11]

Great thread! @Gloersen, @Rich,@Razorskier1 etc seems everyone agrees that if you keep stacked with the load off, until the white water, the real challenge is back to "handle control" as you change edge in order to keep you and the ski heading outbound. Achieving this "reverse C" position , and being able to actually feel it, has been my goal for the last 2 seasons. This has to be the most challenging aspect of our crazy sport. I'm now conceptualising a combination of what I was told by:

1. Seth - going to 1 bouy : drive the ski through the wakes using left hand/arm on to the turning edge, keep shoulders away.

2. As mentioned by Rich above: once changed edge try and keep shoulders away & get more pressure on the right arm - to help keep the handle in, keep speed, get up on the ski etc

 

When it works = so easy and early - just need to get everything right before the white water to allow it happen!

 

[Razorskier1]

@Deep11 -- all load management. Too much load and you can't control the line/handle. Too little and you won't have enough angle. Finding the right load where you can keep the elbows in tight to the vest past the second wakes is key. I spend no time thinking about which hand or arm feels what, but just on maintaining the right amount of handle pressure so that I can, in fact, keep it in after the second wake.

[Skoot1123]

@razorskier1 - do you do a one handed gate or two handed gate?

[Deep11]

@Razorskier1 - thanks! could simplify things further - will try.

[Razorskier1]

@Skoot1123 -- two-handed. I've accidentally done a one-hander a few times and it feels pretty cool because you are so free of the boat when you turn it in, but I've never tried to perfect it or use it beyond that.

[RichardDoane]

looks a lot like @than_bogan don't you think ?

 

[thager]

That's never going to fly!!

[Than_Bogan]

Wow, that really does look a lot like me, especially before I shaved my goatee and got my hair cut!

[doonez]

Could someone give a link to somewhere where the "reverse C concept" is explained?

[Jim Neely]

@doonez Schnitz explains it in his article "Edge Change Like the Pros." There are also a few pictures at this link http://www.schnitzskis.com/skitips.html

 

[PatM]

I would be interested as to when these photos were taken. In August I was in the boat when Chris was skiing at a tournament and he was using a two handed gate start. That may change the approach timing also

[Razorskier1]

I posted a bunch of pictures of gate turn ins for Chad Scott, CP, Dave Miller, Regina, Rossi and Todd R under a different thread. They all look the same regardless of one or two handed, or even 34 or 36mph. If I could find the thread I'd point you there. E-mail me if you want and I'll just send you the pictures.

[doonez]

@Jim Neeley what does this guy mean by

 

"Click on the button to the right and get my FREE report on how to "EDGE CHANGE LIKE THE PROS" for only $19.99 (for the beginner through pro skier. Includes "X FACTOR").

Once payment is received, I'll e-mail you this report within 12 hours (usually much, much sooner)."

 

Is it free or $19.99!?

[scuppers]

It's $19.99!

[doonez]

@scuppers then what does he mean by "and get my FREE report"?

[doonez]

@OB hahaha! I must admit I had never heard of him before now - Sorry Schnitz if you ever read this. Have you purchased any of his explanations? Would you recommend it?

[Ed_Johnson]

Unless you know everything there is about skiing, it is well worth the money !!

[mwetskier]

it cost 19.99 to push the button but you get the article for free as a bonus.