Just realized I'm not allowed to compete in regionals and nationals.

[kfennell]

By the way, Canada does not have this rule, they allow Permanant residents (landed immigrants) to compete. This keeps out any students and pros that are here training (because none of them have green card equivalents in Canada) yet lets people who ski and live there year round with no plans for leaving ski...

[Horton]

All sporting events are defined by some set of rules that should be intended for the benefit of most competitors. You have to know that not everyone will be happy but at some point the rules are the rules.

 

If Kevin can ski Nationals for placement & potentially become the US National Champion then so can every international skier that lives in US. I do not think the intent of the event is for anyone that lives in the US. Should we let all the Europeans, Australians and other skiers that live here ski Nationals? When we do that it is not longer the US Nationals.

 

If Kevin wants to ski at Nationals he needs to get there without the benefit of Regional placement. That is the way most skiers do it.

 

[skifreak]

I guess that's where I disagree with you. Nationals should be about the active US ski community, not who has the papers.

[kfennell]

I would bet that virtually none of the people that you are referring to have a green card in the US. Do you guys even know what the difference between the students here on visas or the pros here on visas and a green card resident are? Clearly not from the if we let you ski we would have to let everyone ski attitude.

[Wish]

@kfennel. Please clarify for us. Not trying to have attitude. Just the opposite. However, I will plead ingnorance to detailed immigration issues. What are the differences? What do you have?

[kfennell]

I have a green card, which means that I am a "Permanant" Resident. I got this by marrying my wife. The only other common ways to get one are to be sponsored by your company (Something that costs many tens of thousands and I doubt any pro skiiers have) or to win the green card lottery which is intended to encourage diversity among immigrants (and almost no countries that skiiers come from are eligible for the lottery normally). Having a green card is 99% the same as being a citizen with the following differences, I can't vote, I could get deported, and I don't have to give up my Canadian Citizenship. In summary green card holders are here to stay are are allowed to stay forever.

 

The guys that are in florida at the ski schools etc will be either on 6 months tourist visas where they can't "work" or probably on J-1 visas which are basically summer vacation work visas. Lastly the people that are here going to school are on F-1 Visa's which are the same as anyone who comes to the US just for school athletes or not. What all these visas have in common is the following: Restrictions on who and how much you can work for, RESTRICTIONS ON HOW LONG YOU CAN STAY, and they are NOT a path to staying in the country. None of them can be "converted" to a green card or citizenship. In summary they are visitors.

 

Maybe the most important distinction is that you can't just GET a green card. Anyone can get an F-1 or J-1 visa, and come here and win nationals and dissappear, but if Will asher wanted to get a green card virtually the only path for him would be to get married to an american and then wait 3 years or so.

 

I came to the US on a TN (NAFTA) work visa which allows engineers from Canada the US and Mexico to "freely" live and work in each of the three countries, mostly for the benefit of the US which has an ongoing shortage of engineers. I then met my wife, got married, and applied for a Permanant Resident (green) Card. I was approved after an interview to determine that we weren't faking it and given a 2 year card. After those 2 years I was allowed to apply for my 10 year card which will automatically renew every 10 years as long as I haven't committed a crime. Since I have been in the US I have worked and paid taxes continuously, and owned two houses. I have never even seen a waterski lake in Canada (thought I was once in McClintocks store). And know literally no one in Canada who skis or competes.

 

TL;DR: A visa is a temporary pass to come here and not really work. A green card is a permanent pass to be here and do whatever you like but vote.

 

 

[liquid d]

Damn Foreigners!

[ForrestGump]

@kfennell I believe most of the foreign athletes that live here are on O-1(extraordinary abilities) visas which have a 3 year initial, and then yearly extensions. It allows them to work too.

[Wish]

@kfennell Thanks for the education. I admit I had some miss conceptions of a green card. I blame Cheech and Chong for that. Sounds like you've had to go through a lot. Personnaly I wouldn't have a problem with you skiing with that kind of history or becoming a citizen for that matter. Your approach to living and working in the US is admirable. Retooling the rules may be a mountain to climb though.

[ntx]

@kfennell, Trust me, you are not the only waterskier from Canada that works in the states. Do you know Paul Melnick? He and his family own houses on two very nice private lakes, and supports the sport both here and across the border. I don't know how long Paul has worked and lived here, but I have known him for at least 6 years. (a great guy and great family that hosts some of the best events that I have ever attended) The rules are what they are. Sorry. At some point you accept them and move on.

 

I understand that just built a home at the host site for the 2014 nationals. Congrats. I don't think that entitles you to a ticket to the show.

 

@bk, said it best. It looks like you don't even have a 3 event score (EVER) and a top slalom score that is below max speed. So it looks like your plan was to qualify to ski nationals by a top 5 finish at regionals. This is one of the reasons that I support a min level 6 ranking for nationals EVEN WITH a top 5 finish at regionals. Let's not diminish the hard work of others by allowing everyone to ski. BUT the rules say that top 5 at regionals gets you in. So I will follow the rules. Maybe you should consider that also. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I think that is the overall tone of most of the posts.

[klindy]

I would think that a permanent resident is (for the purpose of the US Nationals) the same as a resident. If there was a 'rules change' request I would recommend that "or permanent resident" be added to the "US Citizen" requirement.

 

I agree with Kevin that one doesn't just 'get' a green card. I have a fair amount of personal knowledge about the process and it's not a slam dunk by any stretch. The key is the "permanent resident status" and not some kind of visa related 'work status' or some other kind of Department of Labor status.

 

What surprises me is that the USAWS application process doesn't even have a question about citizenship or legal residence. In essence if you have an address in the US you can basically sign up in whatever category you wish (regular member). That said, no one would ever know if you were a US citizen, legal resident or anything else.

[skifreak]

@ShaneH - so a simple rule requiring a permanent residency status would circumvent most of these issues?

[skier2788]

@shaneh how do you know so much about an 0-1 visa? Ex- girlfriend with extraordinary abilities? :) ooohh right. Sorry couldnt resist

[ForrestGump]

@skier2788 LOL. I actually had a girlfriend who was here for 10 years on a work visa for Shell Oil. So I became familiar with the process.

[kfennell]

@ntx it's not just a top 5 at regionals, I have to qualify for regionals which means having 2x level 5 scores I believe, it's not my fault that level 5 jump is like 60 ft, and slalom is 34 mph. This is more of a commentary on the fact there aren't many Men's 2 skiiers. Hard to imagine with a sport this inviting and easy to access!

 

@ShaneH and sure some are on all sorts of VISAS, but none of them would be allowed to ski if you opened it up to permanent residences, well except one starting sometime this year.

[A_B]

Just lose your birth certificate and run for President, then you can change it to whatever you want!

[skifreak]

@ntx Rules can and must be changed when they no longer meet the need they were meant for. If that wasn't the case, Rosa Parks would still be sitting in the back of a bus somewhere.

 

Past scores don't matter and shouldn't be brought up. Not everybody can be a hardcore three eventer from the start and just because a score isn't seen on a website doesn't mean they aren't practicing or deserve to compete if they qualify. All we're arguing is that he should have the opportunity to ski if he qualifies. You're entirely entitled to your opinion on qualifications and should think about emailing AWSA if you feel so strongly.

 

@Klindy - You've got a guaranteed room at SMRR. :)

[klindy]

@skifreak thanks for the offer!

 

Currently the rules do require skiing in a Regionals to compete at the Nationals (of course you need to qualify either through ranking list or regionals placement). That wouldn't change but allowing legal permanent residents (i.e. someone who no longer needs a visa and not including Conditional Permanent Residents!) to ski at the Nationals would, by default allow them to compete for placement at the Regionals too. You'd still need to achieve whatever ranking list requirements to ski in YOUR appropriate Regionals to be eligible for placement. If you ski out of region at the Regionals then you aren't eligible to ski for placement regardless of your resident/citizen status.

[lpskier]

@ skifreak Not to be a contrarian (while totally seeming to be one in this discussion), I disagree with your notion about going to tournaments where you know no one and not having fun. I have been to plenty such tournaments; in fact I look for tournaments at sites I have never skied, and always come home with new friends. I have never been to a tournament far from home and not had at least one person invite me to join a group going to dinner, etc. That is one of the things that to me make the sport so attractive: The people are all so friendly, even the contrarians.

[skifreak]

@Klindy - perfectly agreeable to that and it's all we're aiming for. As I stated earlier, I have a (very lengthy) email in to the board of directors. I'm hopeful that with a bit of discussion on immigration laws and what exactly the differences are in statuses, we can get the rules rectified.

[Horton]

This thread has exceeded my ability to care. Please keep non-ski politics out if it. I am out.

[kfennell]

@Rico Three rides and 2nd last, but that isn't really up to you to decide if that is worth it to me.

[ntx]

@horton, Is it time for the Panda yet??? LOL

[Dirt]

I don't think you will have much support for allowing foreign skiers (Permanent Visa or not) to ski Nationals. I like Kevin and Katie and enjoy skiing with both of them but I think a vote would be 90%+ against it because of the giant can of worms it would open.

[Horton]

@ntx this thread if far past that. I have to care to get out Jody the Panda

[Wish]

It has a name!!! Wow!

[skifreak]

@Dirt - I think if we actually sat down and assessed the status of people this *might* affect, we'd realize there's not even a can of worms to open at all. Pros and students are on entirely different immigration statuses and don't need to be included in an amendment to the rules. They would remain ineligible as stands.

 

Potential issues that might arise:

1. Abuse from other skiers who simultaneously ski in multiple countries. Ok, but currently there's no check on whether or not you're a citizen so that could be happening anyway.

 

2. He (or any other skier) skis, gets rankings and someday decides to defect to Canada. As soon as a green card holder abandons the country, they forfeit their status and can never get it back. So yes, maybe you now have a former nationally ranked skier who has returned to their home country. However, they're the ones hurt from this since they can never come back and I'd bet that 99.99999% of green card holders would never do this after jumping through all the hoops and shelling out the amount of cash a residency status cost them in the first place.

 

And it's only personal feelings here but if that skier was involved in the US ski community why should it matter they weren't from 'Murica. He's really VERY much less of a Canadian at this point than American (even though we like to give him crap). I also know nobody would complain about having an extra driver or tournament worker but we can't dare let him ski!

 

I'm entirely open to hearing why people are against this (aside from the "I hate foreigners" stance) because I can't convince them to change the rules if I don't know how the other side thinks. :)

[jcamp]

Is @kfennel a citizen of the U.S. or Canada? If (it sounds like it is "when," fortunately) he's a citizen of U.S. then he should ski at the U.S. Nationals. If he's a citizen of Canada, he should ski in the Canadian nationals.

 

Plenty of people live, work and pay taxes in the U.S. but don't get full benefits of citizenship ... because they are not citizens. That's the system. I don't blame a mostly volunteer-run organization like USA Water Ski for having rules that are aligned with that system.

 

Not to say that I don't sympathize with @kfennel. I do. I get how frustrated he must feel. But the lines have to be drawn somewhere and I think citizen/non-citizen is a reasonable place to do it.

 

 

 

[skifreak]

But permanent residents DO get full citizenship benefits with pretty much the singular exception of voting. Visa holders are a different story which might very well be all the other people you're thinking of. I feel like this whole issue revolves around people not understanding the differences in status (who generally needs to, right?). I can't help but notice that the only person who claims intimate knowledge of the process and requirements agrees that permanent residents should be granted eligibility.

[clark1001]

[ToddL]

I live in Texas. Thus, we get a lot of drama and discussion on concepts related to Citizenship with all of the Mexican nationals which reside in our state both legally and illegally. That said, there is an inherent conflict with regards to the definition and history of America vs. citizenship and immigration laws. On the one had, America still sells itself as the land of opportunity and has a history of inviting immigrants as the ultimate melting pot. On the other hand, at some point the pot gets crowded and filters get set and adjusted as to who gets in and how... Thus, the attitude of the rules starts to look like a barrier to new immigration. I just find that interesting, but also very understandable.

 

When rules don't make sense, it is because a new context has been discovered for which the rule appears to not account. At this point, the best course of action is to investigate the INTENT or principle behind the rule. The intent and principle will be more vague than a stated rule. There is often great agreement on the intent/principles, but expressing them into an actual rule becomes difficult and complex. (If we had a "AWSA Intent and Principles" book instead of a rule book, it would likely be less than 10 pages.)

 

With regards to US National competition, I bet the intent and principle behind the rule is to ensure that non-US skiers are NOT allowed to participate. I think we all agree on that. It is the definition of who is a US skier vs. a non-US skier that is in question here.

 

Someone said, that we have to draw a line somewhere. This is true when you must write a rule. Rules require minimization of judgement and an attempt to define black vs. white, what is allowed and what is not. Currently, the line is drawn with the word "Citizen". That happens to be a legal definition which does not include non-citizen residents, regardless of duration of residency. Even with @kfennel's definition of his own residency, it is not permanent. It is limited in time, but renewable sequentially and indefinitely given satisfaction of specified requirements. This makes his status different from a citizen which is life long without term limits or necessary renewals. His interpretation and intent of his residency may very well be permanent, but his legal status is not permanent. That is the distinction and the reason why the legal designation exists - to classify this status separately from citizenship.

 

Personally, I assume the intent and principle of the AWSA rule is to keep all non-US skiers out of regionals/nationals. Thus, there are really only a few next steps or outcomes of this issue:

1) Non-citizen skiers who intend their residency to be permanent and who wish to ski in US nationals, must seek legal citizenship to align their intended permanent residency with the legal equivalent.

2) AWSA determines that the principal of their rule was to exclude less permanent skiers (all Visa holders), and chooses to modify the rule to state, "citizens and legal green card holders."

3) Nothing changes. The rule stays as is. Green card holders, visa holders, etc. are not allowed to ski at US Nationals. Skiers intending to stay permanently in the US who have not yet achieved full citizenship are therefore not eligible to participate.

 

[MattP]

@Rico I like where you are going with that.

[ScaredOfCorbets]

And what if you have dual citizenship? Do you get to ski in US and the other country? Is this a new discussion?

 

 

 

 

[skifreak]

@ScaredofCorbets That's actually a fantastic point most people wouldn't think of. Many US Citizens are NOT require to forfeit their original passport and technically remain citizens of both countries. They could easily run off and compete for another Nation given the desire to do so even if they're classified as US Citizens.

[ntx]

You can Ski with dual citizenship until a point that you compete in a international event. If at that time, you ski for another country, you are no longer allowed to ski US nationals. Beleive it or not, this has happened. Some countries support top skiers much better than the USA. In fact, Canada is one of them.

[klindy]

interestingly, IWWF actually has a much lower threshold than USAWS/AWSA on this subject -

 

4.02: Skier Eligibility

A Federation may select its team in any manner it desires; however, each team member must be a citizen or applying for citizenship of the country which the Federation represents. In case of doubt as to the nationality of a competitor, the Judges normally will refer to his passport. If a skier does not have a passport from the country for which he is skiing, he must prove residence in the country for at least five years and membership in an affiliated club of the Federation. Each Federation shall certify to the Judges that all members of its team meet these qualifications.

 

In the US "applying for citizenship" can be interpreted as having your application with the DHS and still have years, perhaps as long as 15-18 years if ever, before you are considered to be a permanent legal resident. As a non-conditional permanent legal resident you're much, much further down the road to citizenship than a visa holder with their application submitted. DHS makes you wait a minimum of 2 years after you become a non-conditional permanent legal resident before you can even apply to become a naturalized US citizen.

 

If you interpret the IWWF rule literally to @kfennel's situation he would be considered eligible to ski on the US team (assuming his scores were eligible). I believe he's been a resident of the US for 5-6 years and is a member of USAWS. So in reality, according to IWWF, he'd be able to choose between the US and Canada if he were eligible to make the team.

[A_B]

I guess I don't buy in to the fuss about non-US skiers skiing in the Nationals. The last time I checked, there wasn't any prize money, and isn't it about the competition? If someone is living LEGALLY in this country, and has skied in the appropriate tournaments to get a rating, skied in the Regional for the area that they are residing in, then I could care less if we open our sport to them, so they can ski in the pinnacle event that this country offers AMATEUR skiers.

 

To make someone fly overseas to ski in European National doesn't seem very hospitable.

 

Wouldn't it suck to be an American working abroad for 3 years and you can't go to the most illustrious event and ski for placement?

 

Maybe this would make an interesting poll?