Transitioning From Pulling to Reverse C

[A_B]

I think @matthewbrown does an outstanding job of getting good angle off the ball, and then getting the ski out in front of him after the second wake. This is one of the critical moves hackers DON'T make, and if you want to run 38 and shorter, is a MUST DO. This is the critical juncture where the handle has to be in, but the skier has to make a move with his feet to get the ski out in front of him and on a turning edge (while still riding an outbound path). The Reverse C has to happen in order to maintain width. If you remain stacked after the second wake and over the ski, the forces of the boat will have bad mojo on you. If you get on an edge and don't have the handle in, you will be narrow.

 

To me, this was the key that I found years ago (and about 60 pounds, when I was actually a shortline skier). I watched hours of video trying to figure out why I could run 35 but 38 felt impossible. I realized I needed to amp up the pull after the ball and GET OFF IT, as I was always screaming early or narrow into the balls. There is a work zone and there is the C zone. If you work in the C zone, you may get one more buoy, but you will need to do something spectacular at the ball to run more.

 

Just my 2c. (from an old fat guy)

 

[The_MS]

I think this is an advanced topic thread.

[jimbrake]

But, if you stay stacked over your feet and driving forward past the second wake you can get really far up on the boat, then cut late, and kick a huge jump down the lake.

[Horton]

@No MS you knucklehead @ab choose to post in the way he wanted. There is no way in hell I want to discourage that.

[jayski]

Hey, @Horton play nice in the sandbox, no name calling, appologize to @MS for calling him a knucklehead...or you'll spend some time in the corner...trying to have a nice forum here and there you go tarnishing it....

[Horton]

@jayski the normal rules do not apply to @ms . He and Eric are always fair game for abuse

[A_B]

@Horton, who is @No?

[Horton]

@ab Ok. enough about my phone typos. Not news

[WBLskier]

This concept is something I’ve been working on for a long time, though I definitely don’t have it yet. I realize that it probably is all of the things that lead up to the point where you transition to the reverse C that dictate when that happens and not a point where you decide it happens. My question is this: at say 32, 35, and 38 off, if you are doing the other things right, where does the work zone end and the C-zone begin, ideally? It would be great to have some idea of if the transition is happening in or near the right place.

[ForrestGump]

IMO, the Reverse C is not a technique. It's a byproduct. If you look at the elite skiers with a more pronounced Reverse C, they move the load into their trailing arm leading up to the transition which frees up their upper body to stay leaned away from the boat separate from their lower body. @sethski talks about this in the thread in the Advanced section. Matt Brown, Marcus Brown, Seth are all really good at this. An example of a skier with a different technique and a less pronounced RC is Chad Scott. Chad gets in this super stacked, legs straight, locked in position behind the boat. He'll tell you that's a detriment as the line gets shorter and shorter. Because he's so locked in against that leading arm that he sometimes can't get his lower body and ski to release independent of what his upper body is doing.

[A_B]

@ShaneH, I almost put in examples of guys who Don't do this, and Chad was one. I think I have seen others, but rare. Ward McClain? A taller guy who carries his effortless-looking lean a long time.

 

Excellent point on shifting to trailing arm pressure. The C happens due to the handle control with shoulders back and the independent activity underneath the handle, which the skier must initiate. It won't happen by itself.

 

 

[WBLskier]

I get that this isn't a technique and you can't force it and it is due to what you did leading up to it...but does anyone have thoughts about where (ideally) it should happen if you have done the things leading up to it right?

[Deep11]

I like the idea of keeping your upper body leaned away (handle under control) and yet initiating independent movement of your lower half - both to advance the ski forwards and to let it find the turning edge.

I would be really interested in knowing what those who ski deep shorter lines use as a mental aid to making this happen? eg Horton was talking about doing something with his chin, Seth focuses on trailing (left going to 1) pressure, AB mentioned making sure you shorten the work zone.

Are there other ideas out there?

Softening the knees after the midline?

Trying to raise the inside hip just after you come off max load?

????

[jimbrake]

I don't know how to do it, so could someone please post any of the Terry Winter instructional videos he did while at Sunset Ranch. @WBLskier - watch where Terry's COM is as he goes through a turn and back onto the handle and begins accelerating, then watch where his COM is relative to his feet at the first white water, first wake, centerline, second white water and beyond to the next handle release. This should answer your question.

[jimbrake]

crap - edit to my post above. Forgot there was the video of Matt above in this thread. Just watch that one. Your position on your ski from hookup, through acceleration, to the beginning of the edge change to the finish of the edge change (and beyond) is dynamic. By that I mean you don't finish a turn, get into one static position, hold it to some defined point, change edges suddenly, etc. Watch Matt's COM as he hooks up and begins to accelerate, then watch where his feet start to move ahead. The point where his ski sets down in the second white water is where he is in the reverse C (as viewed from the shore, not the boat). Where he begins that process is way back at or before the first white water. Different skiers will be more or less pronounced in this process.

[A_B]

I know that I always felt I could pull like a bull behind the boat, and if anything, pulled way too long as the rope got shorter, that is why I had to think shorter pulls.

 

When I was really working on the concept, I remember at first trying to push the ski out after the second wake, and that was too late. Everything happens later than you think when you are going 50 mph behind the boat. When I made progress, I started initiating the lower body movement in the middle of the wake, with the goal of coming down after the second wake on a turning edge, in reality, it is probably happening at the end of the wash. You can't do this if your arms are out, they have to be in to your vest and handle in to your waist.

 

One of my "feelings" when doing this was I was pulling the ski from behind me (but it was under me) and I was actually kicking my feet out in front of me and sort of "hopping" over the wakes. It is just how I felt. When getting on the inside edge, it felt like my COM was now on the top back edge of the ski, if that makes any sense. Try changing handle pressure to your left hand after the second wake as you go to one ball, you will see that you will gain a wider path, as it lets you cast out better.

 

A word of caution, I took some of the hardest falls of my life, especially pushing the ski out in front of me going into my onside turns. I don't know if it is a body mechanial thing or what, but I felt like I was getting crossed up at times and all out of sorts. On a good note, you won't believe how sweet your turns and hookup will be, especially on the offside turns.

[Wish]

Just to clarify - lead arm = right arm going into 1-3-5. Yes? Interesting. I do believe that it is required to some degree for 38 to happen. I've been through 38 but its never pretty and very very asymmetrical. But, I think I've been told the opposite. Feel the load on the leading arm in the reverse C zone (really like that term by the way). But when doing so, I'm not in a locked lean by any means. This is my #1 prob of being unable to do this C into 1-3-5 (RFF) with any consistency. Was told to keep it simple. Keep upper body still. I'd say I'm usually hitting that same zone with equal pressure on both and in attempt to keep the handle close to my hips, I've been pulling on the handle and tossing my upper body over top of the ski to edge change. Very hard habit to break. Narrow and fast is the result. Now off the center line I stay still and feel my leading arm as having more pressure- but concentrating more on still/no upper body movements keeping this for a bit and as @ShaneH says, the reverse C is a result..I think. Without seeing a side view, I can only assume its working. What I see is my ski move under me from one edge to the other without me doing much of anything. Result is wider and I am keeping the handle much longer which is also an unintended outcome. Since this is new and far from what I have been doing I'm successful at 28off ball 1-3 but 5 is still inconsistent. All of this seems to be automatic on the 2-4-6 side but a major brain change on 1-3-5.

[A_B]

@Wish, yes lead arm is right going into 1,3,5. That's odd, as I felt it was way easier to do this going into 1 ball, it was the offside going pull into 2,4,6 that gave me fits, and the worst falls. RFF

 

If you don't believe the left arm pressure going into 1 ball, tie a handle on a pole or something, and walk out to one ball with right arm pressure, then left arm pressure. You will see quite a difference on how you can keep your chest pointed outward (counter rotated) and width achieved.

[A_B]

It would be great if @matthewbrown, or some of the elite skiers could comment on how they learned this important aspect of short line.

[Wish]

@AB, I've heard you say that before with regards to the pole. I need to try that but can already see what it would feel like and totally understand. My problem seems to lie in the fact that when the trialing arm has the load in that C zone, my leading shoulder gets pulled to the inside as it's not really doing any work or carrying any load. Am I to assume you apply some sort of counter/twist away to keep that from happening? Having the lead arm pressure, for me right now, is keeping me form having that lead shoulder lose it's counter while the ski is transitioning under me and both hands are on the handle. Would also like to hear from KC or Chris R.

[Deep11]

Thanks @AB just the kind of ideas I am looking for.

Your word of caution made me laugh - have ready considered ( and experienced) tweaking it too much!

[Ed_Johnson]

Agree with AB that being RFF, it is much easier to do the Rev. C going into 1, 3, 5. Going to 2, 4, 6, you are on your offside pull and it is MUCH harder.

 

The only way I know to do it is after the hookup, I shift my COM forward as hard as I can..My back lat tucks in and the fwd arm pushes fwd and down...This directs pressure towards the front foot and front of the ski...There is a rebound effect from ZO, and this is where I leave the upper body in the leveraged position, letting the knees come up and the ski go both ahead and back to the inside edge...Both elbows are to the vest and the handle is in close...You feel rather tucked in and compressed in the middle of it...When I go to reach it is down, fwd, and up, bringing the hip to the inside and countering.

 

I believe the offside pull is harder because I find it difficult to get Mass Fwd...I have done it free skiing, so I know it is possible, but not to any great degree in the course..I am constantly working on it.

 

My goal is always to strive for Rev. C after the transition and C position at the apex..Drives me crazy doing it free skiing and going brain dead in the course.

 

I do not claim that my method is correct or not, but it is the only way it has worked for me...I really, really, would like to find the best way to do this...I find it is much more mental than physical.

[A_B]

Ed, you know in my mind, it is one of the most critical moves in short line skiing, but one of the least talked about. That is why I put this out here. I don't know if it is just a lack of understanding, or lack of wanting to share. I am sharing what I know, and I readily admit it is limited. But, if you watch all the top pros, they all do it. At 34mph, it happens a little later than at 36, that's the only difference.

 

When my friend that skis in BD's has a slump, many times it is from staying stacked too long and not getting the ski out in front of him. It is one of the first things I look at when I do get to ski with him. He routinely runs 38, even with mistakes, and has gotten to 41 a few times in practice. To think there was only a half of a pass between us 10-12 years ago...... I went on a tangent!

[matthewbrown]

thanks @AB but I think this video will show a much greater example of keeping the ski moving, enabling it to cast out wide...@horton notice how stacked he his out of 1,3,5 and how quickly the ski moves from the right side of his body, to the left, whereas in my video my butt was slightly back and the ski movement was a little slower....obviously he was perfected that movement but it all stems from his ability to be in perfect position at the finish of the 1,3,5 turn and move the ski through immediately...sometimes it can be too much though causing the upper body to slightly fall behind in the transition, he is skiing better now and if I remember correctly we were tweaking his ski every set so he didn't have it where he wanted it for the 2,4 turn.

 

[A_B]

Thanks for the video. Notice how the ski sort of hops out in front going into 2, 4, 6? This is the feeling I thought I felt when I did it right. Excellent example. Not as pronounced on offside lean, but still there. Terry Winter also has some video where he hops into both sides but I couldn't find it. I know hops isn't the right word but can't think of a better one right now. Too sleepy.

[SkiJay]

It should be noted in this thread that there are two schools of thought when it comes to which arm should feel the most pull through the reverse C section of the edge change. I'll use 1,3,5 for clarity. While ultimately, the left arm takes the load just before the handle release, if you load the left arm too soon, it can have a tendency to open your chest to the boat through the edge change making you narrower. If you load your right arm, keeping your right shoulder low, you are pulling your chest closed to the boat so it is facing more across the course, promoting width.

 

Obviously, both methods work as different top professional coaches are devoted to each. With the left arm loaded, it seems to be more of a resistive move against the rope, resisting being pulled too open or raising the right shoulder too soon. Right arm loaded seems a more aggressive powerful move, where the more energy you add to the swing, the more across the course you end up facing. Right arm loaded also makes it easier to keep your right shoulder down which helps maintain your lean against the rope as your feet shoot out into the reverse C.

 

Which method a skier pursues should probably be determined by the unique personal collection of bad habits they bring to the table.

[SkiJay]

Here are a couple of Terry Winter clips as requested above. I hope they are the clips you were looking for:

 

 

[SkiJay]

This Seth Stisher video is one of my favorites on the web. Note that even though Seth promotes loading the inside/trailing arm (left into 1,3,5) he resists loading it so much that it opens his chest to the boat too much. He also keeps his lead shoulder down maintaining his lean against the rope. Good core strength and great skiing:

 

[h2odawg79]

@matthewbrown, Great video

 

Todd's "Vision" going into, through and exiting the Turns is exceptional. (especially 1-3-5) The body follows the Head and his head is Level which gives him great balance and stability and he is focussing on his various focal pts. far away from the Ball itself. i.e. the Shoreline, then down the Buoy line allowing him to stay in a balanced countered position from pre-turn to hook up and not being drawn into the Buoy narrow and fast...

 

Above all else, for me this "Vision" is what makes or breaks my continued Outbound path.

 

@AB, Great Topic

[Wish]

@SkiJay. That was my point in that there may be 2 schools of thought. In a way, as u stated, both can accomplish the same thing. Both have potential draw backs. The general rule for me right now is to find which allows the ski to change edge underneath and infront of me while maintaining outbound momentom (not allowing lead shoulder open to boat in the C-zone going to 1-3-5 RFF). So far that has been lead arm preasure. It's keeping that shoulder down and the line closer to my hips. But that is not pressure that I apply. More of an awareness to keep things still with the upper body and let the ski move underneath me. The pressure is more pronounced in the lead arm when I get it right. If I use trailing arm pressure or feel, the outside or lead shoulder gets sucked back into the boat and my upper body gets pulled to the inside causing the edge change. Terry works the hardest, in that video, through the C-Zone to keep the upper body still and positioned. As to which arm is holding load.. Also he does seem to suck his knees up. Or deep bending. Wonder if that's intentional or a product of something else?. Like the hop that @AB is referring to.

[SkiJay]

@Wish I had a coach tell me that softening the knees that much through the edge change is a move that doesn't work as well for tall skiers; Chris Parrish being a good example. His knees barely budge and there is no obvious reverse C through the edge change. On the other hand, Nate is medium-tall and he has a distinct reverse C out of the edge change. Since both techniques can get the job done at the highest level, it seems more a choice than the result of doing something else correct, or a necessity either way.

 

I've been wondering about the exact same thing as @Wish over the last couple of months and would sure like to hear some elites chime in on @Wish's question here.

 

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1530989/Waterskiing/BOS/Edge%20Change/Nate%201b.jpg

[A_B]

@OB, I think it is where you put the ski in transition. I don't think putting the ski out in front of you is a byproduct, I at least had to be deliberate about it. Maybe it is a natural move for some, but wasn't for me. The key is to put it on the opposite edge and still maintain shoulders back, that produces the RC.

[6balls]

Forward C, reverse C...hmm. I guess I'm destined to be an explanation point! No "C" flexibility in this guy.

[ForrestGump]

@AB You mentioned the key. But it is a byproduct because if you keep the shoulders back and leaned away from the boat, the handle in with the core, and let the ski transition, you end up with the reverse C. You might have to think about doing things to keep those shoulders back and away, but the Reverse C is still a byproduct of those other things, IMO.

[jackski]

@AB in the original vid you posted of Matt Brown is that Ray Brown music ?

[A_B]

@Horton, did the video, and his music credit is:

Rosario Bonaccorso Quartet

 

[Horton]

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on this subject

 

There was an idea a few years ago that if you had more power in your “Trailing Arm”* you would move your mass forward. It works like a charm on the dock and a longer ling lengths. In fact it might still be a great idea for 15 – 28 off skiers.

 

I do not know any shortline skier today who understands the mechanics and still thinks this is a good idea. In my opinion this was an unfortunate and ill advised fad. I am sure if you search back far enough in this forum you will find example of me encouraging it. I was wrong. It is the wrong idea. Sorry I learned it from a top coach – he was wrong.

*Trailing Arm =Left arm if heading to 1 ball

 

Also as a few have already said – the Reverse C is a result and not a technique. I had never heard the idea term before I saw this thread and I am never going to use it in a coaching context. In the dark ages skiers thought that they needed to LEAN into the course and REACH to make the ski turn. Holy heck did we said to never ride a flat ski off the second wake.

 

Wrap your head around this. Off the second wake => the more level your shoulders, the more vertical your spine, the more to the right your center of mass (going to one ball), the less & later you reach => the wider and earlier you will be. In addition to that =>the more your pelvis and sternum are pointed to the right => the wider and earlier you will be. If you strive for these things your ski will automatically sweep right and you will be in your beloved Reverse C position.

[mwetskier]

i think you mean 'sweep right' ?

[estrom]

@Horton, just so I'm clear, part of keeping your COM to the right (and reaching later) going into one ball is keeping rope tension in the right arm (with elbows tucked to your side), correct?

[9400]

@Horton could you get your panel to discuss the trailing arm pressure? I thought 1 or 2 of them wrote in favor of trailing arm pressure last year. I would be curious as to where they all fall concerning that. Thanks

[Horton]

@mwetskier I almost had to give myself a panda for that

[Horton]

@estrom yes

@9400 I will do something

[jimbrake]

@Horton - could you explain your perception of the biomechanics behind your statement: the more vertical your spine, the more to the right your center of mass (going to one ball).... In addition to that =>the more your pelvis and sternum are pointed to the right => the wider and earlier you will be. How do you have your spine both vertical after the second wake and your hips and torso pointing to the right? I totally do not get how that is physically possible.

[Deep11]

Oh no - just when you have a little bit of confidence about one thing someone comes along with a contrary view!

Isnt it Always the way with this sport :)

@horton I'm pretty sure that @sethski has been advocating trailing arm (left arm going to one) pressure. It could of course be that I am misunderstanding (again!). I know that Rossi has advised balanced pressure between both arms - which when stacked with straight arms actually seems the most logical to actually achieve. His gopro video on the front of the ski recently shows his stacked position, handle control and consequential "reverse C" really well.

Doesnt Right arm pressure (going to one again) run the risk of getting "lean locked". Keeping tension on the line out to the bouy line by loading the right arm makes sense and would take me back to what I was working on a couple of years ago.

I'm not too fussed about learning to reverse C - but when videoing my passes I think that's its a really good way of helping to assess if I am getting handle control/stacked/balanced correctly. Incidentally - sticking the gopro on the front of the ski teaches humility about how stacked you are and how close the handle really is when "working".

As an obsessional type A personality I find this really interesting and would welcome a consensus on this concept. (Realise that definitive advice is unlikely - but like everyone here I really want to use my time in the water as productively as possible.)

 

[Horton]

@JimBrake

 

You cannot keep really your mass over your bindings but you can try. Or more to the point you should resist the forces at work. Let’s talk about the inverse. As your shoulders and hips move left (going to 1/3/5) you are shifting your body weight to the left rail of the ski. That initiates a tighter turn starting from the edge change. Tighter turns sound good but if they start at the wakes you are never going to get out to the ball line. The slower and later you allow your mass to move to the inside the more you will ski away from the wakes and wider in front of the ball.

 

As far as the twisting part, the more you keep your stuff pointing out, the easier it is to keep your mass from falling to the inside.

 

@Deep11

I think you misunderstand him but I will ask him. I could be wrong. It happens.

 

[Horton]

@Deep11 I am specifically talking about at the centerline and out. Clearly you do not want to close out at the ball line and go full lean lock --all leading arm pressure (if you do please get video)

[SkiJay]

Another plus for loading the lead arm is that it is in a stronger position than the trailing arm to keep the handle pulled in close (maintaining the connection/elbows pinned to the vest/etc.) off the second wake.

[Deep11]

Reading the upgraded version of this on "advanced topics", thanks @shaneH the thread you pointed us at reassures me that i am working on the right thing. i am going to keep working on trailing arm pressure this season - on hook up, through the wakes, in transition and right up until i release to turn.

Thanks again.

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/6769/anyone-understand-what-smith-is-doing-in-this-image/p1