My thoughts on moving/removing the gates.

[Bakinblak]

I'll clear the air a little bit. I've only been trying to run the course for the summer. In that time I've never made it through the gates. If you want to use that evidence to discredit what I say then so be it. Those who never miss the gates, good for you. Further, I'll give my personal reasons for not trying pass through the gates later. I'll also specify that Im concerned about the entry gates. The exit gates I've got no qualm with. If you got slack then you need to ski better.

 

Second, any and all changes to the gates will only be for the better, whether they're removed or moved. Marcus' "tennis" idea was a good one to keep things the same, and quell complaints, but then new complaints rise such as world records, and then then whate about if the skier double faults and there's debate whether he/she missed the gates or not. Personally I think you're all to quick to jump on the idea.

 

From what I've noticed the main reasons for keeping the gates the same are:

1. Skiers need a reverence point to go towards the first buoy (great reason)

2. You just want things to stay the same.

 

Since Im so new I've got a fairly good outsider's observation. I dont know what your slalom competitions look like but from what I've read 3 judges and cameras for replay are silly, even if the replay adds another 30 seconds. Its too many eyes and too much maintenance to be watching one guy go through two balls, its not simple, its not elegant, its big and bureaucratic. There has to be a simpler way.

 

My next observation is that just looking at the course and the path of the skier, the entry gates don't seem to fit. The shorter the rope the greater the angle of the skier and thus the tighter the space of the gates and less margin for error, and as that space narrows those buoys by comparison get bigger and hitting a buoy wreck your run at best and cripples you at worst. Nick Parsons told me they were ankle breakers, though I've never hit a buoy like him or many of you I'll take your work for it, so why have two more out there at the entry gates...which brings me to my next point.

 

We count buoys, not gates. We care about buoys, we chase buoys, we design skis about getting more buoys and we assume the gates are passed through, but when it comes to competition the gate really matters. We dont say "DUDE I GOT 4 AT 35OFF AND THE GATES!" No, we assume the gates are passed and we care about the buoys. If we dont count the gates in our scores then why do we count them when we miss them?

 

The buoys are all about technique before, at and after them 6 times over, but the entry gates are just a thin window that needs to be timed right. If you miss the gates whatever you do after doesnt count. Again, why do we count the gates when we miss but not when we pass them? The best analogy I have is asking a batter in baseball to throw a ball up and hit it before stepping into the batters box. Sure the batter may hit it most of the time but hitting a dropping ball does not compare to a pitched ball coming at the batter. Can you imagine any game or inning (playoff or regular season, or spring training with some guy trying to make the team) wehre the batter whiffed on a dropped ball and was called out?

 

Two big observation I've made on the water.

1. To the buoys credit they seem to be in the most ideal path to the first ball. If you thread the gates you're pretty darn set, so I guess thats a reason to keep the gates, but for anyone who's missed the gates did you really say "oh nuts I missed the gates there's no way I can do the buoys!" You at least want to proof that you cant go around a few buoys.

2. Whether its free skiing or course skiing, you need a good solid pull to get out wide and to get to buoy 1 with some good preturn. Nothing is going to change that. With an improper pull you're either too late, have too much slack, too early or not fast enough to maintain a good preturn lean. There is no going around buoy 1 and nicely on your way to 2 without a solid pull to begin with. Thus the pull the other buoys require by defacto fulfills the need of the gates, so why have the gates?

 

Ok. I think I've made my point. It was gel'ing a lot better in my head two days ago and it came out stickier today.

 

SO, my solution, and some of you have already made it, kudos to you. Move the right gate back 3 ft and the left gate up 3ft. That way the line between the gates is more perpendicular to the path of the skier. The margin for error is wider, judges can see more clearly, the gates are more assumed to be passed, and skiers make the gates much more consistently thus fewer, if any skiers miss the gates unless its a cataclysmic failure, so more focus is put on the buoys where it belongs. Most importantly, veteran skiers still have a pretty good reference point for approaching the first buoy.

 

Me personally: Skiing is expensive. It costs be $25 a set, (4 passes or 2 kilometers of free skiing) I spend 20pct of my total income doing it and about 50% of my leftover income on it (after bills and feeding myself.) I sacrifice a lot of money doing this, and for me to miss a gate or hit the gates instantly burns off $7-8. If I miss a buoy and fall, fine, because I care about them, but if I miss a gate or hit it and fall over because of it I get angry. Last year I made an honest (if comical) efford to run the gates. I slowed the boat way down and tried to get it. I did 8 passes and blew $50 doing it and I sucked. I couldnt get it once. I was so angry about the time and money I wasted that for the first time I questioned whether all the money I was spending was worth it. I wanted to quit. Yep, you bet. Sure, some of you have your own boat and are only limited by time and gas, but I have financial restrictions. I also cant go out and practice the gates more than 4 times before going back to the dock and waiting in line. I already pushed the limits of what I spend to have fun, but I refuse to throw it away. Sure the simple answer is just to learn the gates and be done with it, but as I stated above the gates really arent needed and really dont fit into the course. Changing the gates probably wont draw more people into the sport, but it will make it slighly more accessible.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk57MENHU8s

 

I made this video two days ago. I wasnt saying things super smoothely. I made another verson tonight but it came off as cocky and I missed some key points and this one comes off as more sincere.

[ToddL]

First, I think your outsider's perspective is valuable for considering the merit of proposed changes. "New eyes" challenge assumptions and cause us to validate them and evaluate their continued merit. The end result may be a worthy reason to change or not. Deciding to not make a change after careful consideration of challenged assumptions is not a waste of time. It is simply an informed decision.

 

Regarding how we talk about scores, noting only the buoys and not the gates... Yes, that is true because our current rules do assume that any buoy score is a result of a valid start. To take this a little further, we count rounding 2-ball because the skier originated from a point outside and after 1-ball. Thus, if the skier missed 1-ball, we don't care if the skier rounded any subsequent buoys. Given this, we care about a valid rounding of 1-ball. For this to be meaningful, the skier's path to 1-ball must reflect a path similar to a skier headed to 3-ball after first rounding 2-ball. Let that sink in a second... The point at which the skier crosses the wakes on the way to 1-ball must be evaluated compared to a fixed and similar to the path the skier would have taken going from 2 to 3. Because of this, there must be some sort of marker to indicate a minimum required point at which the skier must cross the wakes and therefore make the rounding of 1-ball a valid, scoring buoy.

 

The right-most entrance gate ball is how that minimum required point is established today. If the skier skis to the right of that entrance buoy, the current scoring suggests that the skier had too much of an advantage headed to 1-ball. Subsequently rounding 1-ball after skiing on the right side of the right entrance gate buoy makes that rounding of 1-ball invalid and it doesn't score.

 

The left gate buoy becomes less relevant in my opinion. In fact, I have often thought that if a skier is so late that he or she misses the entrance gates to the left of the left buoy and can STILL round 1-ball, then the score should count. Moving or removing the left entrance gate possibly has no affect on the validity of the skier's performance.

 

However, while the boat is passing the entrance gates, the right gate buoy is obscured from view. Thus, the skier needs a visual reference which is currently provided by the left entrance gate buoy. Removing or even moving this buoy would impact current skier's timing and force them re-learn how to initiate their pass into the course. Many skiers will tell you that the timing and effort during the turn-in and lean through the gates is the most important factor that impacts their likelihood of skiing well or successfully the subsequent 6 turn buoys.

 

The current location of the right entrance gate buoy is unique in that its distance to the 1-ball location along the length of the course is already further than the half-way point between 1-ball and 2-ball. I am not aware of the specific analysis and logic used in establishing the exact current location, but it does make some sense... A typical skier's path from 2-ball to 3-ball puts the skier crossing the wakes a bit early of the half-way point. Thus, the entrance gates appear to somewhat mimic this position. I could see a valid proposal of retaining only the right entrance gate buoy, but ensuring that its location was the proper point to result in a valid 1-ball score. So, that is the question at hand really... Where should the right entrance gate ball be? Where it currently is or earlier or later???

 

Regarding the exit gates... They are simply the "entrance gates" coming from the other direction. Thus, any change to the entrance gates will also impact the exit gates. If we take the above logic about the entrance gate's right buoy being important, then that translates into the exit gate's left buoy being important. Well, nicely this means that the same buoy both on the way in and the way out of the course is the important one.

 

Just like a valid wake crossing point is necessary for a valid 1-ball to score, the same is true for 6-ball. Now, this is where it can get interesting... For a skier's 4-ball (or 2-ball) score to contain a valid full buoy, the skier must return to the boat's path (boat guide width) prior to the next set of boat gates - which happen to be the gates lined up with the subsequent odd-ball turn buoy. This distance is much longer than the distance from 6-ball to the exit gates. I've never really thought about this until the current discussion about entrance gates, but this seems inconsistent, right? For the skier to get a valid scoring 6-ball, he or she must return to the boat's path sooner than is required for a valid 2-ball or 4-ball score. Thus, one could propose that a single left-side gate buoy be added at the point equivalent to a 7-ball position and the skier must pass to the right of this buoy to score 6-ball.

 

If we were to propose changes to both entrance and exit gates - based upon a principle that these wake crossings should mimic the middle-buoys' scoring, then the following would have merit:

Remove the left entrance gate buoy.

Confirm or adjust the right entrance gate buoy to establish a minimum wake crossing limit for a valid 1-ball rounding to score.

Take the buoy you removed from the entrance gate and move it to the right side and position it the same distance from the 1-ball boat guides as the distance between 2-ball boat guides and 1-ball boat guides.

Do the same on the other end.

 

Now, the skier must simply pass the single entrance gate buoy to its left on the way to 1-ball and must pass the exit gate buoy to its right after rounding 6-ball.

 

Finally... All of this still requires that there be a buoy and a judgment of skiing correctly by it. The finite definition of "correctly" and "judgement" is where we are today. Today, we have judges who must determine if "correctly" was met. Currently correctly means center of ski and center of buoy must be aligned of inside of the gates. Thus, the skier can perfectly center and run over (or hop over) the buoy and it count. In the propose changes above, this judgement and definition is still needed.

 

So, is the real issue the current structure and placement of the buoys or is the real issue the means by which judges are expected to assess them?

[ToddL]

Note: from left to right is skier's path.

No more left entrance gate buoy. No more right exit gate buoy.

Added buoy for exit gate in both directions positioned the same distance as normal buoy-to buoy...

Valid entrance wake crossing can be anywhere in the green. Valid exit wake crossing can be anywhere in the green.

[Bakinblak]

ToddL I loved your first paragraph because its true. If what you believe is correct then it will hold up to other points of view.

 

I liked your subsequent paragraphs. Somewhere in the middle I got admittedly lost but I get the gist of it. The path to ball 1 needs to be the same as the path to ball 3 to count.

 

I dont think ball 6 to exit are nearly as hard as entrance to 1. Lets not debate that. I agree that one ball would be better than two. My biggest issue is that I have to thread a gate and worry about both left and right. I've stated my financial reasons for doing so and my reasons may be unique to me. Again I suck compared to you guys, or/and its all in my head.

[ToddL]

BTW, I don't think exit gates are harder than entrance gates, either. Here's why:

 

The variable missing when comparing gates to 1 vs. 6 to gates is what is going on on the other side of the wake... and with that added in, for new skiers, exit gates seem easier than entrance gates.

 

Let's take the worst case scenarios in both... Exit first.

 

A skier who pulled all the way to 6-ball has to make a turn (which will be late and down-course) and then head back over to the wakes. However, their path at the wakes is irrelevant. The skier could immediately turn straight and follow the boat or slice all the way across to the other side just like the wake crossing before it. Since skier path does not matter once the skier has skied through the exit gates, the skier doesn't have the added responsibility of being on a specific trajectory beyond the gates. This thus makes them easier.

 

Further, consider the typical path of the skier between mid-course buoys. Believe it or not, most skiers intersect the wake before (early of) the mid-point between the boat guides from buoy to buoy. The skier does not ski a perfect straight-line, zig-zag path through the course. Optimal path for a skier is to drive the skier across the wakes more aggressively and earlier than the mid point, giving time for the ski to travel outbound to the buoy line before reaching the buoy. Thus, if we were to position a skier gate say after 4-ball based upon typical and optimal skier paths to 5-ball, that gate would be significantly earlier than the exit gates are with respect to 6-ball.

 

Entrance gates...

Consider a skier following straight behind the boat until the gates are navigated, and then trying to move out wide and early of 1 ball. This is pretty impossible for most skiers regardless of skill and experience. Clearly, the wider the skier is on the left side of the boat such that he can ski through the gates on the way to a point early and wide of 1-ball, the easier 1-ball will be. Thus, the skier's path prior to the gates, through the gates and past the gates are all critical.

 

Entrance gates are harder than exit gates.

 

So, why in the world did I propose moving the exit gate buoy out further??? I just noticed the inconsistency.

 

Basic principle: The gate should be positioned to make 1-ball rounding valid just like rounding 3-ball.

Now consider the rule for scoring a valid 2-ball... The skier simply has to be back to the boat's path before 3-ball goes by...

So purely for consistency, shouldn't the exit gate after 6-ball be positioned in a similar fashion?

This is not because exit gates are too hard. Rather, it is because the skill to successfully round the other even buoys and score them as valid is significantly easier than the skill needed to round the final buoy on that side and score it.

 

This was a funny view-point that I had never considered before. It is not part of the issues that were being discussed in the poll thread, either. It was just something that only jumped out at me when I started with the thought that the gate should be positioned to make 1-ball rounding valid just like rounding 3-ball.

 

Again, this is the result of looking at something that has always been one way but from a different perspective doesn't seem consistent or make sense...

[Bakinblak]

Toddl, you make a strong argument against my suggestions and a great argument for your suggestions. Good reading.

[eleeski]

@Bakinblak I ski with lots of beginning skiers. I teach all of them turns at the buoy before gates. But as soon as they have mastered nice turns that round a couple buoys, it is time to incorporate gates. The gates really aren't that difficult and they teach the angles and speeds needed to run buoys. Work on those gates!

 

A skier that can run buoys AND the gates is more skilled than the skier who can just round a few buoys. If you can make the whole course without the gates, the next skill to learn is the gates. Don't fight the progression.

 

I do agree that credit should be given to developing skiers for being able to round buoys. But ignored gates should result in a lower score and no continuation (at least no more than up and back - the kids who run 10 passes need to be making gates to earn the time in the tournament). I don't care if 3 buoys and an ignored gate beats 2 buoys with gates or vice versa. Developing skiers should get past those issues soon with gate skills.

 

@ToddL Changing the whole layout of the course is a pretty radical solution to a problem that is quite limited. Occasional judging mistakes and high consequence minor form breaks are a problem that is rarely manifested. Perhaps it is quite frustrating to miss gates (deservedly or not) but it is infrequent.

 

Six ball is easier for me than any other buoy. Even if I'm really late. The problem with one ball is that I might be earlier into one than other balls. But in reality, it's a pretty reasonable balance. Chris P. can run 41off, I can run 32off, Lisa can run 30mph and Kirk can run the course on his trick ski throwing a flip at every wake crossing. The course is pretty versatile and inclusive. With the gates where they are.

 

Note that I use the left gate ball as my aim point. Ski in front of that and I will get nice angle into 1 ball. I also have magnets on the gate balls for the PP Classic boats. The gates in my lake are useful.

 

Eric

[Bakinblak]

I suppose everyone finds the gates easy but me. Your point about a good skier hitting the gates is the same as mine but in reverse. A good skier will go the path of the gates if they are not there.

 

Maybe i need proper teaching. The couple times i tried threading the gates i went way too early and shifted direction two or three time and after i was through id hustle out to ball one and miss or make such a pathetic turn that there was no way id be getting to ball 2.

[Dusty]

The old timers have explained to me that at one time the gates were the same distance away from one ball as the two ball. When they shortened the course to its current configuration, they made empirical observation s of where (most/best?) skiers were crossing the centerline and placed the gates there? As Eric said- try watching the left gate ball, put your ski against it on the upcourse side and I bet you turn the one ball just fine. Adjust from there, due LFF or RFF. Great gates make easier skiing. A friend explains it like this- "you can run 15 off with 35 off gates, but you probably aren't going to run 35 off with 15 off gates"... unless your name is Andy Mapple of course...!

[eleeski]

@Bakinblak It sounds like you need the basic gate lesson. Start just outside the left wake. As the boat approaches the 55m buoys, cuy decisively left until you are lined up with 2,4,6. Switch focus to the boat and when the front of the boat goes through the gates smoothly roll into a turn. Switch focus directly cross course as you continue turning until you have as much angle as you can generate. As you cross the wake note whether you are early or late but don't change your attack at the wake. At this stage it's OK to miss the gates - next pass you will adjust your turn in timing so you split the gates (I go when the back of the boat goes through the gates). You will find the marker that works for you to get the gate timing.

 

Once through the gates, continue heading straight out. Do not stare down 1 ball! I target an imaginary buoy inside and back toward the gates of the real buoy. Overshooting this positions me ready to backside 1 ball and in good shape for the pass.

 

Using cues like these will make the gates relatively painless. There are many subtleties that will refine the gates to make that 1 ball turn great - but that will take lots of time and practice. Good gate entry is an art.

 

Eric

[Murrski]

When threads on removing gates started - I thought about the following potential solution:

 

If the skier misses an entrance gate (early or late) and rounds all 6 buoys plus successful exit gate then skiers next pass (with line length change or speed change) would need to be completed correctly (both entrance and exit gates along with rounding all 6 buoys) then the previous entrance gate foul would be ignored. This potential solution would not require changes to gate buoy locations... would not require returning to same direction for a retry (if one fault was allowed). It would simply be like opting up a pass. If you didn't complete the next pass after the gate fault then the score would be 0-buoys at faulted line length or speed.

 

Thoughts?

 

[gregy]

@murrski that actually sounds reasonable.

[ToddL]

@murrski - I think that was also what @MarcusBrown suggested.

 

**IF** we had to make a change to the gates, there are some really good ideas going around.

When I was responding to @Bakinblak, I was contemplating the concept that the entrance gates should approximate the normal crossing point of the typical, correct skier. Per @Dusty, that is exactly how the current location was determined. Using that same concept, it occurred to me that the exit gates are too early when compared to the allowable room to score a full 4-buoys. Just stuck out, so I threw that into the mix. I know that exit gates are easier and rarely missed unless 6-ball was already sort of a "Hail Mary" attempt. In fact, if skiers had to head to a 7-ball, they'd miss the exit gates too early because they are so far down when head out of the course.

 

 

However, I agree that no change is really needed. I do like the "6 Contingent" idea which is then forgiven upon successful subsequent pass.

 

I, too, use the left entrance gate ball for lining up to cut. Loosing it would make gates difficult for me.

 

I think the scoring could change such that, the left gate buoy is irrelevant for the sake of judging entrance gates. Pass the right entrance gate buoy on the down-course side of it and the gate is good, no matter how late the skier is... Same could be said for the exit. On the Exit, the left gate buoy matters. Pass it on the early side and the gate scores. The right exit gate buoy should be irrelevant.

 

@eleeski 's suggestion for timing the gates as a beginner are pretty solid. Another thing to try is this: Pull out to the left when the boat hits the 55's until you are just a bit wide of 2-4-6 buoy line. (so far this is the same) Now, when the nose of the boat goes through the gates, start a smooth medium turn. By the time the tail of the boat is going through the gates, you should be in your lean. Aim for the inside edge of the right gate buoy and lean for it. The boat will pull you a little down course of that causing you to cross the gates somewhere between the perfect middle and the right buoy. That's perfect for a beginner.