How important is dry land training?

[Horton]

There seems to be some disagreement on the value of dry land training. We all lean on a handle on the dock every once in a while and a lot of skiers use a fixed handle for a stretch. When I say dry land training I mean:

 

Devoting time to leaning on a fixed rope as a way to practice on the water technique.

 

"High Scores" are tournaments scores if you have them or legit practice scores if you do not have tournament scores.

 

[Horton]

It will be interesting to see how this falls. If you have been reading other threads for the last week or two you know what I think. If everyone disagrees maybe I will rethink my logic.

[Marco]

I'll lean on a handle to stretch more than anything. Sometimes I'll have a handle in my hands while I am trying to visualize a progression, but there is no replacement for on the water training in my book.

 

I can understand how it might be helpful to people in the early stages of course skiing, however. Getting into a lean on a handle, even though it is static, can help less experienced skiers better understand the general position they need to be in behind the boat.

[Horton]

@Marco I totally agree that there is value at times. My question is if it is major a training tool.

[Than_Bogan]

Hard question. I use it, but it's not a "major training tool" so I went with "no."

 

But really my answer is "sort of."

[Horton]

@ed_johnson

You are the outlier so far among the short line guys. What is your dry land method?

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan I think we are on the same page. There is value at times.

[9400]

Dadgumit-I answered the pole without reading the instructions first. I need a Panda.

 

I do it some (leaning on a fixed rope) but it's not a major part of my skiing. Mostly just to test ideas, or stretch stuff out. I think it could help muscle memory for someone kind of new to slalom course skiing as long as there is someone to help correct alignment issues.

 

[SkiJay]

I think leaning on a fixed rope is a good stretch and muscle conditioner. But in my experience, it has nearly zero to offer if your goal is to change or improve your on-water technique. All it rehearses is a contrived static position that you may pass through for one nanosecond during a real pass, and it depends on a dozen or more dynamic moves that have to happen correctly in advance.

 

For what it's worth though, I think "Leaning on a fixed rope" is too narrow of a definition of "dry land training." If you broaden the scope of "dry land training" to include visualization and skiing-specific balance, flexibility, movement and strength training, then I think it's very important. It's been a key part of my winter-long program to give my skiing technique a complete head-to-toe makeover. (Now it's time to see if this technique makeover has taken hold enough to yield more balls at tournaments.)

[ForrestGump]

Ooops. I'm a damn idiot. I meant to hit the button for Not important 32-35 off. Instead I hit Is Important. Grrrr.

[MattP]

I think this poll also shows the level of skier who reads/actively participates in the forum in the morning. No one has voted below 32 as of yet.

 

@ShaneH @9400 I'm disappointed in you two...

 

@Skijay For the sake of this poll we are talking about leaning on a handle. I agree going to the gym, stretching/flexibility work is considered dry land training, but not in this case. I row, do yoga, and spend time on an Indo board.

 

I do believe that visualization can be just as "detrimental" as static pulling on a handle. If you dont know what to visualize correctly you are just practicing the wrong movements mentally.

 

I spent 5 days skiing in Orlando a month ago. I have not skied since and went to a tournament this weekend down there and skied alright, could have done better than my score. I went and skied with my coach before I left town and he said I looked much better than I had a month ago. I have not skied, but I did take video of my skiing with his coaching comments and extensive notes. I do watch these from time to time and make mental notes on my skiing and visualize the differences in my skiing. This is the only thing I can contribute the progress to besides being a BA.

[Skoot1123]

At the beginning of the season and a couple times during the winter I will lean on the rope to simulate being in a stacked position. It is useful to a point, but at most I would only spend 2-3 minutes on it at a time. So, I don't think it contributes (or hinders) anything toward my skiing.....FOR ME. With that said, I do plan to "condition" my hands before going to Coble's by pulling/leaning on the rope a bit. But I don't think it will increase my buoy count.

[Rich]

I learned how to move my body in a more effecient manner with dry land training. My logic behind it was I had done thousands of turns leaning on my back foot. Years of practice = muscle/mind memory. Since I had so much time on the water doing it all ineffiently, I decided to relearn on dryland in my workout center/garage. Every morning as a part of my training I did a step up exercise where I stepped up on a box learning to move my COM up as I stepped up on the box. I moved my COM up on the box standing on each leg 100, 200 or more times per day for months. (that would have taken years actually water sking) As I moved up on the box I also raised my hand up in a forward reach position. Another drill is leaning on a ski rope attached to a weighted rowing machine. I lean in the direction of I want to travel Keeping my core tight, raising what would be my inside shoulder in the direction I'm going. This all = relearning

how to move my body in a much more efficient way from the way I learned to ski, which was leaning back, and away. (THE TUG OF WAR between myself and the boat) I wanted to learn how to feel on dry land how it felt to have a resistance and move my body in a much more effcient way. Mission accomplished. This worked really well for me, it took me from a 35 off skier to a 38/39 level. It also helped my snow sking. I also use a skiers edge machine. It builds strength, is a plyo metric drill done on dry land. It helps with standing tall sking into the appex. These are all drills that had I only "water skied" it would have taken years to unlearn what I had learned, (tug of war with boat) vs learning how to move with my ski. I accomplished it all in 1 off season winter. I continue to use this dry land training as my body can only ski so much, and I can stay sharp with these drills.

[Rich]

I also would "test" my self on the water with drills before heading into the course, whip drills for edge change. Leaning drills where I have the luxury of a 3000 ft long lake, I would lean away for the entire length of the lake, feeling my body moving away/forward in a lean instead of leaning

away/back. That builds stamina and teaches my mind that its OK to have a slight forward momentum instead of the what I feel is FEAR based learning where we as skiers learn to lean slightly back and away as we move into the wakes instead of moving slightly forward and away in the direction we want to travel. (I do this by bending 1st my ankles, then kness, raising my inside shoulder, feeling my COM moving in the direction I'm going using the forward momentum of the boat as my energy source. Water sking is often counter intuitive, at least for me it was. Realizing that the only thing out there moving was me (the skier) that the buoys are always in the same place, (which sounds weird, but was an eye opener, an "ah ha" moment for me) that all we really need to do is link BIG ROUND turns together as efficeintly as possible is always my goal. By doing these drills I feel like I was able to relearn how to ski in a much shorter length of time. So it was a combination of dry land training, followed by on the water drills to make sure I was doing it correctly, followed by sking in the course. I also learn new line lengths by sking in front of buoys the entire course and also sking just inside buoys, then finally sking around the buoys. It always amazes me how when I see most people practice they just go down the line, making the same mistakes over and over again. I remember a saying. "doing the same thing over & over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity" Think outside the box and open new doors, create your own paradigm shifts in your awareness & your skiing.

[Rich]

To @horton I voted incorrectly, I don't know if you can adjust that or just give me a panda!

[crashman]

My dry land training falls into what @kcswerver was getting at in the other thread- demonstrate what I think is a good position or technique then ask for feedback. I learned a lot from the other thread so I'm glad you posted it KC. Ankle bend has been kind of an afterthought for me. I've been playing around with the balance board and seeing how shifting my body position affects my center of gravity.

[MISkier]

I don't know if dry land training will help or hurt me. So, I have not done it on a regular basis. I do occasionally stretch out with a handle tied to something, but don't have a regular routine. I know I need some sort of biofeedback on what the correct skiing position should feel like. It's hard to get that in the few seconds on the course and I just don't free ski with the same rhythm and timing as in the course. In short, I'd like to have something to improve my position and provide some feedback to me when I do it correctly. I just don't know what it should be. I do feel that getting the feedback in the course is more valuable, as I am able to see what difference an adjustment can make. I guess I just don't get enough water time.

 

To be clear, my high score is just barely in 32 off (4 in practice, 1.5 in tournament). So, my category designation is a bit of stretch.

[Horton]

@Miskier something at 32 is something at 32. No need to apologize.

[Rich]

http://www.skiersedge.com/

[Rich]

check this out, great tool picture previously posted..

 

http://www.skiersedge.com/

[Horton]

@rich very cool but not what I am asking about

[Rich]

@horton, most all of this is DRY LAND training. It has been my experience of teaching myself to go from the old tug of war, to a pretty efficient skier after 30 years of tug of war, being stuck at 2-3 at 38 for 10 years, this was my dryland game plan that took my sking to the next level, helped me LOVE zero off, and have more fun in the slalom course by actually improving. I know I added alot, actually gave out a good portion of my "blueprint" I hope it helps others see there is a way to learn on dry land skills they can use on the water.

[Rich]

DRY LAND TRAINING IS AN IMPORTANT/ESSENTAIL PART OF MY TRAINING

 

[MattP]

@horton is the one who can't read. Y'all are failing mesersbily

[KcSwerver]

I wouldn't say it is "important" to my training but during the winter, what else am I going to do? It helps build muscle and toughens hands. Also it allows people who don't get alot of time on the water to have something remotely close to that before the season arrives.

[Horton]

All I have learned is you guys are as confused as I am. .. and most of you do not spend a lot of time leaning on a static rope.

[9400]

Hey @MattP, it's a complicated set of instructions which requires actually reading them, you should see what happens when I have a 50 page set of documents.

[Horton]

I confess I wrote the poll before 7am so it may not be the clearest ever

[MattP]

@9400 I pray you are not an air traffic controller or something like that.... I know read the sentence and pick the one that applies to yourself was very demanding.

[Waternut]

I think it can help beginner skiers see and feel what position they should really be but that's about it. Especially those people who constantly break at the waist and ride flat across the wakes. However, I spent a good bit of time on that tree rope last year and I never felt it helped my skiing. It ultimately came down to growing a pair and having some painful trial and error before really learning any kind of form. I don't claim to have great form but even after getting better, I don't see the correlation between hanging on a static rope and making a dynamic movement on the water.

 

I started playing with design ideas for dry land practice that involves turns on both sides but I couldn't really come up with any solutions that weren't really complicated and required a lot of space. Even then, I didn't think it'd be much fun after a couple times.

[DanE]

I don't use dry land practice a lot, but it really helped when I switched from left palm up to left palm down many years ago.

It just felt too akward switching grip mid season, practiced leaning drills during winter layoff, started fresh the following season with the new grip and never looked back.

Maybe those of you that consider it a waste of time have access to ski practice year round or close?

[Ed_Johnson]

@Rich...What model of the Skiers Edge do you use ? Do you feel it helps you with your edge change and also, seperating upper and lower body movement ?

Did you ever try the single plate Mogul ?

[6balls]

I pull on a handle anytime I see one attached to something and wish I were skiing cuz I can't help it...but it's not part of training.

[The_MS]

This sounds like a scene from Water World. Do you have to have a handle in your hand to have it be considered Dry Land training?

[h2odawg79]

I seriously doubt this poll will conclude anything more then who does what! -That in itself does not constitute or vilify anything...

 

Again, what Pro Shortliners are doing and what they are TEACHING, can be 2 different things. Not to mention, THE BIGGEST DIFFERENTIAL MAY BE GOOD SKIERS DO NOT NECESSARILY MAKE GOOD COACHES...

 

A Great coach can see the picture and express the tactic from the Students point of view. A Good Skier can often only relate to what works for them....

[MattP]

@h2odawg79 I disagree this poll will give us a good representation if what our contributers are doing for their training habits. I also see you have not responded to the poll question.

 

Most coaches and almost all pro skiers ski at a level above their students and will be focusing their skiing on something different than their students, but that does not mean they are not teaching their students what's best for them at their level.

 

You are correct not all good skiers make good coaches we have discussed this in length on other threads and applies to all sports.

 

Lets stay on topic.

 

How does this relate to static dry land training?

[RichardDoane]

@horton - I think it's funny that people are actually asking for a panda

[gregy]

I don't get a lot of time on the water. Even during the summer 1 to 2 times a week. Dry land training helps me keep my mind focused on each step. I walk through the course and visualize my body positioning, focusing on things that I'm want to work on the next time I'm out on the water.

 

I can tell a difference when I'm doing it and when I slack up.

[tjm]

While I do not consider it an important training tool, I do visualize my set with a handle in my hands while I go through a "mind pass" or two. This I do find helpful.

[lpskier]

That is the problem with voting first and reading the instructions second. I would change my "is" vote to an "is not" vote. While I hang on a handle, it is to stretch my back, not to practice my position.

 

[Rich]

@richarddoane, why not ask? I find it funny! @Ed-Johnson its an S 4 it helps to a degree, by being in the best physical condition possible by using the skiers edge, doing single leg plyo drills hops, and other body weight exercises that will strengthen the mind/body connection will help in the edge change which is about having great body awarness and strength to weight ratio which allows a skier to feel thier way into the most efficient lean which produces the correct amount of speed/angle that leads to a dynamic edge change. The edge change is a function of the right lean which leads to the dynamic edge change. Just another piece of the puzzle...

 

[ForrestGump]

My life needs a panda, it would seem.

[Waternut]

I guess really for me if I can get into a good pulling position, I can stay there through the wakes. Pulling too long before the ball and/or coming out of the turn and getting into the proper position is where I fall short. So I can't visualize how standing in the right pulling position is going to help me which is why I no longer use dry land drills. Now if someone knows of a dry land drill to practice rounding buoys and getting into position, I would certainly give it a try...

[Horton]

For you @ShaneH

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

[gregy]

@rich I like that skiers edge looks like it would help develop better carving skills. When I practice whips and do it right really get the feel of sweeping carve snow ski turns. @Horton I do not spend much time leaning in a static position against the handle. It more for visualization.

[Horton]

@gregy

Whatever works for you.

I was making a point and now I am done.

[gregy]

Yep see your point Horton, thanks. Lots of good reading between the two threads though. Made me reflect on what I was really trying to accomplish with my dry land training, may change some things.

[Jody_Seal]

How do you push the wrong button in a poll? Not it!

32-35 off. dont do much dry land.... need all the energy i can store.

[9400]

I answered the poll before I read that it was in reference to leaning against a tied off handle.

I guess I don't like to read instructions....I'm a rebel that way.

[Brady]

To me, if you are trying to improve your ball count by using dry-land training, that is akin to a nascar driver trying to improve his lap time by sitting in his car and turning the steering wheel while in the garage.