41 and the gates...

[danbirch]

After seeing the video of what appears to be gates dissappearing at 41, I thought I'd see what it looks like to go through gates at 36mph and 41 off. If you have never done this, I recommend it.

 

With a Mastercraft, it looks like (at the moment you turn in and commit to your gate shot) the ball is in the trough, UNDER the water and moving, or with very little showing. Other visions of it are difficult as it is fairly submerged (and displaced), and camouglauged with white water. .... VERY DIFFICULT to see. By the time the ball comes back to the surface, it's too late.

 

I suppose that the pros are used to this sight, but it sure was an eye opener to see. I highly recommend trying it to get an understanding of what they have to deal with.

 

http://danbirch.com/41gates.png

[RichardDoane]

nice looking Strada

[A_B]

Do your have bungee material on the gate balls or solid rope?

[danbirch]

Canyon Lake has a floating course, the balls are attached to pvc pipes with a small fuse string (to release it if needed). So, it's a very large pvc pipe going out to the balls, then a 3/4" pipe rising up, string attached to it.

[danbirch]

This is a picture of Nate at 41 (gates not visible). If I was a pro skiing at 41, and missed my gates, I'd protest that when I went to adjust for them, they wern't there.

http://danbirch.com/nates_gates.png

 

[Drago]

Not the topic, but does he look "light on the line" in that pic?

[danbirch]

Nope! I recall a while back, Nate was asked about being Light on the Line, and his response was, "When the line goes tight, there is nothing light about it."

 

This is a freeze frame of the tapes that took Nates Gates, and the Masters from him. I think the argument above would apply.

http://danbirch.com/nates_gates_masters.png

[rodb]

they can't take the gates except from the top left video. that one is not clear.

 

[Wish]

I wonder how my water filled buoys would react to this. Ill have to give it a try.

[webbdawg99]

Are those frames supposed to be in synch??? Top left he appears to be coming off the second wake, bottom left he looks to be right behind the boat, and bottom right he's approaching the first wake!!

[danbirch]

I agree. It doesn't appear that they are in sync.

[thompjs]

Another thing I've noticed on reviewing gate video is it will look like the skier is going run over the ball or miss slightly, and the wakes move the ball over a bit and the skier goes through for a good gate.

 

It really helps on gate video to get the pole up to 20+ feet instead 10. Allows you to see over the spray

[bmiller3536]

@danbirch which gate ball are you looking at while skiing?

[danbirch]

the right one.

[liquid d]

Judge who was watching the gate, said he did not make it and that started the whole process.

[Texas6]

Great idea until I remembered my rope only goes to 39.5

[bmiller3536]

"This is a picture of Nate at 41 (gates not visible). If I was a pro skiing at 41, and missed my gates, I'd protest that when I went to adjust for them, they wern't there."

 

There is no time to adjust at 41 off, once you go your gone so the fact the buoy disapears after the boat is passes through really does not have that much effect because the skier commited well before this point.

[thompjs]

I've watched plenty of gate video, and at the point the skier passes the right hand buoy, it will be visible. It doesn't disappear for long anyway.

[Dusty]

IMHO, I see using video ONLY if for some (exceptional, AND excusable) reason the judge did not see the gate. Then THAT judge ought to get ONE look at real time speed- AND a caution to pay better attention. (Maybe also if the site has some defect that prevents proper judge tower placement- again, ONE look at real time speed.)

Record tournaments have requirements for judge qualifications- it is not their first rodeo, and they are supposed to picked from the "most qualified available", absent conflict of interest... In a perfect world...

[danbirch]

@Dusty These are pics of Nate @ 39. How would you judge them, good, or bad?

http://skiall6.com/media/kunena/attachments/42/Nate395off.PNG

http://skiall6.com/media/kunena/attachments/42/Nate395off2.PNG

http://skiall6.com/media/kunena/attachments/42/Nate395off3.PNG

[thompjs]

@Dusty The best way is to freeze frame the ski just as they go by the ball. Most of time no review is needed because it is obvious that the gate was made or not.

 

@danbirch, the view from the boat is really irrelevant.

[danbirch]

Thank you, @thompjs , you have a valid point. I've tried to read the awsa rule, and it sounds like the boat judge has the ultimate gate call, even though we agree that we don't always get a good viewpoint from the boat.

 

10.08.D.2.c

c. Each judge shall independently call the entrance gate by observing

the monitor. If one or both judges did not observe the entrance gate,

or the two judges should disagree, then the video would be replayed

at normal speed, slow motion, or frame-by-frame to make the call.

(If video replay is not available, the boat judge shall call the gates.)

[thompjs]

If the tower judges split, then the boat judge will have to make the call.

 

Pretty rare case at record tournament with gate video. I've got some DVR's that you punch a button that pops back 30 seconds, you hit play and once you see skier you can frame by frame the skier through the gates. Typically takes 10 seconds to review at most.

 

What I see as the biggest issue on the video replay is not having the camera high enough to see over the spray for 35 off and shorter.

 

When this issue occurs I'll hold a pencil up to the screen at the location of the ball so I can try to locate it as the skier goes by. Often you can actually find it in the spray, since you know where to look.

 

 

[smanski]

It is amazing how much more effort goes into judging the gate than the turn buoys. Make the skier pass to the left of the 55s and go whatever direction he wants after that. Disappearing gates at 41 would no longer be a problem.

[thompjs]

Most gate calls are not that close, and 1/4 or 1/2 calls can be very close and require video review as well.

 

I had some boat video of Goodson from Cypress Big Dawg that I looked at several times and it was tough to tell whether he ran over buoy or not, then if you gave him the bouy the point of handle release for 1/4 or 1/2 was incredibly close. I think he ran over it, but the judges call 2.25, 2.25, 2 live. Goodson thought he should have gotten 1/2 (of course!)

 

As a TC I would be all for not judging gates, if we could get rid of gate video.

It would really be easier for beginners to slowly build up to getting started in the course.

 

 

 

[Dusty]

I am missing something I guess. The gates are affected the same whether the rope is at LL or 43 off, I should think. From the skier's perspective, well up on the boat, the right hand gate is always going to be difficult to spot. If it can't be seen at all, I would suspect some work on bungees could be in order- but still wouldn't they be hard to see at any line length?

[danbirch]

@Dusty , great question! One difference is proximity. With a longer rope, the gate balls have more time to come up when the skier typically comes in for his gates (making visibility of them easy). With the extreme shortline gates, the boat is pretty much right on top of/at the gates, when the skier is coming in for his gates... As mentioned before, try cutting your rope to 41 off, go 36, and try your gate approach. It is amazing to see the gates COMPLETELY submerged at the moment a skier would normally come in for/look for the gates. I'm sure the pro's are used to that sight, but it's a real eye opener that (as I see it) makes the pro's even more amazing skiers than I realized.

 

One other thing that is interesting (regarding the current gate rule), is that you may notice that many/most of the pro's are supporting the idea that something needs to change.

[tbrenchley]

Most people have to realize one thing...at short line (38 off and shorter) you don't "adjust" after you turn in for the gates. We judge our start before the boat displaces them and then we just pull. If you attempt to adjust your gates at that point you're already done with your pass. If you are constantly cutting it close and missing a few of your gates you must change when you start because you will never be able to adjust on the fly at that speed and that line length.