will Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 We have been talking about some of the "truths" in water skiing lately. One that was most interesting to us was the amount of force loads a skier takes during a pass. We also thought about the amount of force getting up (deep water start) and what might be a "max" load say at a handle pop...... Well, in our small sample of 4 skiers. It was really amazing to see the data. By linking a force load meter between the pylon and and the rope we were able to get readings for all of these scenarios. Any wagers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller SkiJay Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 Handle pop has to see the highest peak load. They can be downright destructive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skihart Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 Handle pop .....hmmmmm say 650 lbs....pure guess Average ski pass say 525 lbs ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 Depends on the level of skiing. Pros - somewhere around 700-800 peak. Typical 35 offer - maybe 600. 15 to 22 offers - 450 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Edbrazil Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 Back some years ago, doing WaterSki Mag boat tests, we had a heavy-set guy doing the deepwater starts associated with time/distance to speed. With a 2-foot in start, he was racking up 700 lbs. Finally stopped abusing him and replaced him with a "Drone" designed by Ron Tanis. Way back, circa 1964, Jim Sylvester did some testing at Callaway around the Masters. That writeup is in a Water Skier from that era. I think that he measured Joe Cash and Billy Spencer in Slalom nearing 500 lbs. Should have measured Joe doing one of his barefoot deepwater starts, where his technique was just basically to muscle up, no foot/feet over the line. I've seen an unsuccessful attempt that way sling the handle back over and ahead of the boat, with a 75 foot line. Which we promptly ran over and got tangled in the prop. When Dave Benzel had his Lisa system, rumors are that he might have seen 900 lbs. with a top skier or two. I had a Dillon Force Gage for a while before I wrecked it with a towline break snapback. Around his peak, Mike Suyderhoud was pulling 600 lbs into the jump ramp, and holding a high number for a while, vs. in SL, where the peak is a shorter time period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will Posted September 5, 2013 Author Share Posted September 5, 2013 Skijay- 10-4 on the handle pops... Skihart- right in the ballpark AB- no Pros out there tonight so can't speak to that....rest are in the same ballpark w/Skihart ED- thanks for the history One of the skiers tonight weights 52lbs skiing at 21 mph @ -32.........174lbs max load Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller KcSwerver Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 32 off... Dangggg at any speed thats impressive as heck! Tell them i say good job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will Posted September 5, 2013 Author Share Posted September 5, 2013 KcSwerver.......Thanks I'll let him know...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 @Will, I remember reading results of LISA article which tested Mapple and two other skiers. I am fairly sure Andy was over 800 lbs at 39 right behind the boat. The other 35'off guys were around 600 ish. Quite a difference at 39. I know when I do a deepwater start at 250lbs with double boots, the load is very high. Just from listening to pylon creaking, a 250lb guy creaks the pylon a lot more than a 165 lb guy who runs shorter line. Lots of factors. I tried to track down the LISA system years ago, and talked to Benzel about it, and talked to the guy who built it. He didnt see commercial success for it and scrapped it. More recently, a newer high tech version of this was being developed but ran into time and money issues, and the incomplete system resides out west somewhere. I had an interest in using it as a training tool to determine if my onside and fried pulls were equal. Mapple was almost identical and the other guys tested were quite a bit less on their offsides. I still think it would be a great tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 @thompjs - might like to gather your data and methods... AWSA Tech Committee Member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 I'm going to guess that a stacked and patient skier (even a pro) stays under 600. I bet the bigger skiers who are skiing below -28 are generating some significant loads. They are likely the crank out of the turn type... Big skiers who have made it past -32 are probably a bit more technical in their skiing and have found efficiency and thus load less. Also, I'd say that handle pops due to fatigue are not very high, but handle pops due to trying to hang onto poor form out of a turn may spike above the normal lean forces. Deep water start forces will depend upon skier's method. I know some large guys who are very patient and efficient during the deep water starts, while I know some light skiers who sort of dig in and fight the boat all the way up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 I would say a handle pop at 35 OFF is around 1,000 lbs of force. (by the way, what was your sample rate on the load cell?) Normal skiing - 15 to 22 OFF - (ie: not the pros) would peak around 375 to 400 lbs of force. An advanced skier - 28 to 35 OFF - would generate around 475 to 525 lbs of force. The pro's force would be roughly 700 to 800 lbs of force. This is purely a guess. Getting pulled up out of the water I think would actually be higher than the peak loads during course skiing, but not higher than a handle pop. Obviously there are factors such as weight, line stretch etc that come into play when your pulling a skier out of the water, but I would venture to say that it would be in the neighborhood of 700 to 850 lbs of force for an "average" person. Now I'll go back and read the other comments. Can't wait to hear the actual readings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted September 5, 2013 Supporting Member Share Posted September 5, 2013 Cool stuff! I request that when you "publish" your findings, you also express everything as a factor on skier weight. I believe that is more generally applicable if one wishes to predict their own forces. For example 174 lbs of force would be very tame for me (about 1x body weight) but for your 52 lb skier that is over 3x body weight. If were to attempt a similar pass to him/her (with a little more speed so I don't sink!), it would be a better guess that I'd pull 3 x 170 = 510 lbs than 175. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 Just the differences in opinion here were reasons to get the new GPS version of a LISA system. I think it would blow light on the line out of the water. The edge needed and force to hold the edge at 39 off is probably 4x a skiers body weight. JMO. Yes, at times I feel like 1000 lbs coming out of the water. @mortyski was involved and spent a fair amount of $ (even though it was Canadian $) in "Mona Lisa" the new GPS based system that plotted skier position behind the boat and synchronized with pull force measured. It ran into some programming issues and is moth balled at the present time. This would be really cool data to look at for training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Gloersen Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 Flashback...WCS http://youtu.be/zfBg4jTR-O0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 Either one has to go around 165 lbs, so you are seeing 3.5+ times their body weight. Not exactly light on the line! The neat thing is to see the load off the ball now vs behind the boat with pre-ZO power. Slalom technique has adapted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted September 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 5, 2013 I'm going to refrain from commenting about gates in that video above. Oops, too late. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Mortyski Posted September 6, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 6, 2013 @AB is correct. I bought a load cell (rope tension device), a GPS system (accurate to 20 data points per second within a 6 inch tolerance), a magnetic timer, Dartfish Video software, laptop and a few other things to capture / record: 1) the skier position in the course, 2) the rope load and 3) skier speed / acceleration. The data would be all versus the time with the plan to superimpose it on a Dartfish video...sort of like the vital statistics of the ski pass. This would be the ultimate data acquisition for ski schools and for ski design. This is equipment is at a ski manufacturer now...we cannot find anyone who can acquire the data from the devices and program the equipment to download into a computer...as strange as that sounds it has been difficult. So if you or any of your ski buddies is a programmer please get a hold of me or @AB...AB has my e-mail and Wechat ID I'm an engineering and my plan was to see what the pros did (how and when) vs what us mortals did by watching the data and looking at the video...we could also compare how everyone skied different passes....how different skis or set ups worked...all kinds of good stuff but despite the equipment being purchased it is just sitting not getting used since no one knows how to hook it up. The data and the video was going to be the ultimate resource on just what is happening on the pass, the playback could be in the boat or on short depending on the situation. I guess when you are an engineer that does not necessarily teach you to drive trains or program computers my best, Morty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Mortyski Posted September 6, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 6, 2013 ooops a few typos above but you get the message Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will Posted September 6, 2013 Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 Guys, Thanks for all of the insights and sharing. I will pull together our sampling of info along with the methodology this weekend and post it. I agree this is the next step in truly understanding, teaching and coming to terms with the multitude of variables in our sport. Getting this kind of info to the skier can help improve technique and understanding....I'm really glad no one said 1200#.......... Good water to you! Best, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted September 6, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 6, 2013 @Mortyski, back in town? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Mortyski Posted September 6, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 6, 2013 Ni How @Ral...still in Beijing...get Wechat so I can talk to you....it's a free app and 300,000,000 Chinese people use it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted September 6, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 6, 2013 Maybe if we find someone to hookup Mona, they can get me straightened out on Wechat. Still doesn't seem to work right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brady Posted September 7, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 7, 2013 Guaranteed my load is higher than any baller on this site. With my fat ass and my old school turns, I can put some damn load on that line!!!!! @AB is surely not far behind. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted September 7, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 7, 2013 I actually pulled the pylon loose on a MC at a tournament at Pelican about 10 years ago. They switched boats out. It was probably loose anyway, but not sure if that is one to add to accomplishments or embarrassments..... I have been known to NOT ski light on the line. Maybe @Brady we need a t-shirt that says "heavy on the line" or something to that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted September 8, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted September 8, 2013 I heard that Ty Oppenlander pulled the pylon right out of the boat some years back. He's 200+ lbs and I am guessing that he generated some significant load to do that. Not many details on exactly what happened, but that is what I heard. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted September 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 8, 2013 its been rumored the lapoint boys pulled a pilon or two out of a boat in there day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Mortyski Posted September 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 8, 2013 @ab. I pulled a pylon out of a boat once...it had my watch on it that my wife gave me....I was so shocked I let go of the rope so at the bottom of the lake is my pylon, watch, rope and handle...that was when I was younger...now I give pylons load tests each time I make a start, and not so much when I pull. I was probably 220 lbs at the time and pretty strong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted September 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 8, 2013 Could make a great commercial if you have someone dive down and find it and it still works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 @Brady there's a few of us that load up the line from the time we say "hit it" until our turn is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller SkiJay Posted September 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted September 8, 2013 @Mortyski If your looking for data acquisition expertise, contact: * MoTeC - www.motec.com * Cosworth (was Pi Research) - www.Cosworth.com, or * AiM Sports - www.aimsports.com They are all on the bleeding edge of custom data acquisition systems for racing for cars, motorcycls, powerboats, sailboats, airplanes etc. Laying out a skiing data system would be relatively simple for any of these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.webp.594e76dd75aefabbbd8c63a3242fcd7d.webp)
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now