Gatormod product plan questions for the ballers

[gator1]

So I've skied on this thing all this season, and its been up to some at 39 (in practice, so I know that doesn't count, particularly since in my only tourney my first round score was 1@28. I was proud to make the gates. I get a little nervous).

 

Some other ballers have made their own gatormods off of prints I've sent them, and I made a few and gave them to guys who had wracked their ankle. Their reports have also been universally positive.

 

It works.

 

I've been trying to figure out how to make it easy for people to adopt it, and maybe save some more ankles.

 

My buddy with a machine shop and I are thinking of designing and selling a universal plate with an integrated, streamlined gatormod. This plate would accept most hardshells, which would be supplied by the baller.

 

The plate would attach to the ski with dualok. The theory is that the dualok, combined with the "two feet in" hardshell approach, covers the rotational fall injury mode (the one that can result in a spiral fracture.) In this respect, the setup would be the same as all the guys that are running dualok and hardshells today. I haven't seen anybody reporting a twisting injury with a "two feet in" setup, and mechanically that make sense to me.

 

The gatormod adds the coverage for the OTF and crushing OTF (the ones that lead to the ruptured achilles, dislocated peroneal, etc)that is not well protected by the dualok.

 

With the gatomod, the dualok can be amped up a bit, so you don't have to walk the fine line between not enough and too much. The mod will force the release in a risky OTF, and since both feet are locked in you don't care about staying on in a twister.

 

Additionally, the plate would accept rubber boots in the case of ballers who want the compliant feel and response. We'd have a retention strap on both boots, so after you slip them on you snap a buckle around the ankle. This is to keep both feet in and thus neuter the twister, while retaining the rubber feel.

 

As we have seen from any number of threads, most recently @efw rant on laces, the gatormod needs to look a lot less crude to be accepted.

 

The dog collar around the knee has been replaced by a Velcro strap with a carabiner attachment. That way, you put the strap on in the boat, and can leave it on until you leave the lake. Like a wimpy knee brace. The carabiner allows you to click the strap to the leash from the mod once you are in the boots, and click out in the water after a set. The levers in the back will also look a lot less like they were made in the basement, and won't flop around.

 

So, some questions for the ballers:

 

1) Is my theory on twisters valid, ie has anybody been seriously hurt in a twisting fall in which both feet stayed in the boots?

2) Do you think people would be willing to pay $80 +\- for a plate with an integrated gatormod?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jcamp]

Welcome back @gator1 !

[Rico226]

Glad yr back, sounds really reasonable, have spent over $2 grand since May when I broke my ankle on fogmans, with insurance deducts for surgery, crutches, walking boot, rehab etc

[Chef23]

$80 wouldn't be a bad deal but I don't like dual lock as a release mechanism.

[rfa]

@gator1 unfortunately I have not yet had the time to get my Fogmans modified with the gatormod...hopefully a winter project...as to your question above, dual lock is a non-starter for me. On the other hand, as the improvements you mention can be applied to the basic fogman system, I'm all for it.

[A_B]

Sound like the gator plate releases and maybe dual lock is fail safe last release.

I ran my Stradas on G10 with dual loc as a backup release in the event of a season ending ski tip tuck behind crash like I had in hard shells several years ago. I put them back on a Sequence plate because it was easier to move around for some testing I was doing, but thinking of going back to G10.

[gator1]

@rfa, Yep, the improvements transfer just fine to the stealth/fogman. We'd end up making a little retro kit for the Stealth/fogman guys. Drill two holes, mount the lever plate to the rear of the Stealth/fogman plate, and you're good to go.

 

@AB, the gatormod FORCES the dualok to release in cases where you want it to, but it may not. Specifically the perfect storm crushing OTFs (body crushed onto the ski in perfect alignment with the ski, ass crushed towards and past front ankle, g-force greater than what thighs and glutes can counteract) that don't happen very often, but end up in disaster when they do. So its like you said in the inverse. And basically a continuation of your strategy of backing up your Strada release with dualok.

 

The gatormod would be a failsafe for you guys running dualok.

 

We'd be making a stiffer version of the G10, so that it couldn't bend between your front and rear foot, and incorporating an integrated version of the levers you see on the back of my first edition gatormod.

 

BTW, there was a vid on BOS a while back that showed some young stud taking a crazy fall right after the buoy. He was about to suffer through a crushing OTF, but he was strong enough that he stiffened up his legs and back and ripped the ski out of the water tail first, shot up in the air about 4 feet, and cartwheeled around the tip of the ski. Basically, he was strong enough to force a release, but of the ski from the water. Pretty cool. And if I was that strong I'd still be playing hoops.

 

@jcamp thanks

[jipster43]

@gatormod1 I'd be interested. I'm not sure if I'd retrofit my Fogmans or keep my Stradas and go with the dual lock, but I'm all about safety. Especially after breaking my ankle this past May.

[dstone124]

@gator1. I'm inclined to agree with what you've stated above in terms of rotational release with a fogman system and it's short comings with OTF falls. Last year I broke my front foot in such a crash. This year I've had (2) such similar falls that have resulted in severe sprains which have left me doubting the system I've come to love for the past (3) seasons.

I've read your postings since you've first come on the site. I love your ingenuity. It'd be awesome to see what you and @brewski could come up with together. Hopefully one of you will hit the powerball soon to justify the labor of love that would be continuing the quest for the better binding system.

To further answer your question, as technical as most skiing personalities are, I like your approach to simplify your system. The last thing I'd be looking for in a modification is something else to adjust, and something else to fail.

Beyond that, $80 would be a drop in the bucket compared to the price of a lost season or multiple doctors visits as a result of the afore mentioned crashes.

Let me know if your looking for more test pilots. I'm a -35 skier that is obviously doing it wrong based on my resulting injuries from the past (2) seasons. It sure is a lot of fun though!

[A_B]

Why a stiffer version of G10?

Part of the attraction of the G10 is flex.

 

If you have some pics to send to my email address, I would like to check it out. I have an extra pair of Stradas that I could play with.

[dstone124]

@AB, flex maybe while skiing, but not In a fall. For the a single plate release on an OTF fall, the rear must release first (obviously) but when the base plate bends between the feet, it gives the body the opportunity to bear the forces of the fall (mostly the front foot) before the release is initiated.

At least that's what I've derived from the pain incurred and the time spent questioning why I've been hurt during recovery. I'm running the G10 plate and adapter so as not to drill my ski for the binding system.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong?

[Brewski]

I found a .125 7000 series aluminum front plate is really nice. It adds only a little stiffness in a small area that helps with an added blast of acceleration. I am currently using a .125 7000 aluminum back plate also but it took some time to get used to. I was running a .90 Wiley fits all plate but it buckled under the pressure and the rear Silvretta 500 would not release.

I am work with a new machine shop on my titanium sk8 mounts and hope to make both front and back G10 and 7000 series aluminum plates. Would love to do .100 6-4 titanium but the $$$ per plate would be around $500+ before machining, stainless would be nice to try also. The properties of the different metals is wild. The titanium works like a shock absorber allowing flex but hates to be distorted so its spring back return is lightning fast where as 7000 aluminum will flex and return as the ski does, stainless is not forgiving and is just plain stiff so it would be fun to have some elite skiers test them all but would bet the titanium to be the choice when all was said and done...

[gator1]

@ab: My new hero, @dstone124, is exactly correct.

 

Here is the scenario: You've just stuffed the tip on your weak side turn. Ski has almost stopped. You, however, are still traveling at a pretty good clip, but your main direction of travel is towards the top of the ski. Your knees are bent past 90 degrees, and your hips are dropping towards your front foot. You are pushing hard with both legs trying to counteract the momentum that is crushing you over your front foot.

 

Suddenly, since you have almost no linear flow of water over your fin and therefore our friend Mr. Bernoulli and his equation tell us you have almost no transverse force from the water to hold your ski tail in, you skip the tail.

 

Now, you are in deep sh!t trouble.

 

With the sudden loss of any pressure on the rear of the ski, your rear leg is snapping straight, powered by every ounce of strength you have.

 

The front of the ski is still buried in the water. Since it is a new $1200 culmination of 30 years of the designers effort to create a structure that WILL NOT FECKING QUIT TURNING, it is still augured in, and will not skip out.

 

Your weight is now completely on your front foot, and your front knee is way past your front toes. The ski is pivoting around your front foot, and your front ankle is acting like the fulcrum of a teeter totter. On the back side of the teeter totter you have your rear leg, conditioned to perfection by hours of supporting most of your weight in your pulls, because, let face it, you're not Nate Smith and even though it has been the FOCUS OF YOUR PATHETIC SUMMER YOU ARE STILL STACKING ON THE GD BACK LEG. SH!T.

 

Oops. Sorry. May have been internalizing there. Back to the scenario.

 

On the front side of the teeter totter, the water is pushing the ski towards your nose with about 600 lbs of force, again according to Mr. B.

 

Meanwhile, momentum won't let up, and you are still being forced into a deeper front knee bend, all your weight plus the added force of decelerating that weight is on your front foot and your hips are now way in front of your front toe.

 

At this point, it wouldn't matter if you were standing on the ski in your bare feet. Your front heel is not coming off the ski.

 

Your calf muscle will contract at maximum strenght, without conscious thought, in a physiological reaction known as (I forget). This response is designed (evolved?) to protect muscles so they don't get torn. Unfortunately, your Achilles is already loaded near its max yeild point (which is pretty dam impressive. In normal use, due to the mechanical design of your ankle, that achilles can take well over a 1000 lbs of load. No wonder you can hear the snap when it lets go).

 

So, it is at this point, two paths are open to you.

 

If you are in your gatormod, the cords running from your front knee to the levers on the rear of the plate are already so tight they have actuated the levers and pried the rear of the plate off the ski about 1/4".

[gator1]

answer to ab continued:

 

That 1/4 " is enough to have defeated the spring pin on your fogmans, or have popped the dualok.

 

But youre still getting crushed, and your front knee is still moving ahead of your front toes. Without some help, your achilles is going to rip. Now, the cords, via the levers, begin to lift the whole plate, becoming in effect, an infinitely strong backup to your front foot achilles.

 

And here @ab, is finally the answer to your question: As the cords lift the rear of the plate, if the plate is wimpy enough to bend between the front foot and the rear, your front heel will stay planted and your achilles will pop. If the plate is stiff between the two feet, the cords will lift the entire plate bringing your front heel up and you are off the ski in one piece. TA DA!

 

If you took the other path, and you are in a perfect storm crushing OTF without a gatormod, then:

 

You can't go to either side of the ski, your hips are in the perfect spot, forcing you juuuuust the right amount ahead of your toe, (a little farther forward and your back leg will help pull the tail of the ski with you, a little less far and you'll just squat on the ski) and Juuuust the perfect amount of ski tip is in the water to keep all this going just right. Well, then no matter what binding youre in, and in fact if you are on the ski barefoot, your going to hear the snap.

[gator1]

HA! Just because the marines trained your achilles @ob, they didn't make you bionic.

 

Some people, like ob, have a stronger achilles then others. But something has to give. If you look at the mechanical structure of the ankle the fulcrum function it provides is created by a bunch of ligaments and a real sketchy ball joint. By rearranging structure just a half inch or so, almost all the load on the achilles goes away.

 

In ob's case, his achilles held to the point that the structure was momentarily rearranged. In order to rearrange all that structure, those ligaments had to stretch. Also know as a really bad ankle sprain.

 

In my brother's case, his achilles held, but his structure let go, to the point that the peroneal tendon dislocated and the ball joint also dislocated. Unfortunately for him (but fortunately for all pheasant that live on side hills) when the ball joint dislocates it takes all the cartiledge with it, leaving poor Gordo bone on bone in his ankle joint.

 

These perfect storm OTFs don't happen all that often. That's why so many of us never get really badly hurt. Usually you can go a little to one side or the other.

[T_C]

OR you could just go with the white double reflex with the straps set to the middle hole on a single carbon plate and the releases set for your weight and forget about not releasing and work on skiing. I broke the ankle of my back foot and ruptured my Achilles on another hard shell set up and have taken similar falls on this set up and both boots released safely at exactly the same time. I Put the ski back on and kept skiing.

[gator1]

You betcha @tc. In fact, one guy can do that very cost effectively. First baller to make me a reasonable offer takes my 2012 size 12 left foot reflex. Carbon plate. Six sets in it, one heat cycle on the liner. Stock, unaltered, not-gatorized.

[eleeski]

@gator1 Be careful of the weight of your setup. Plates are quite heavy already. Adding stiffness to a G10 plate means a thicker and heavier plate. Perhaps adding a couple of small angle strips to the plate will give the stiffness needed to release the whole (flexible?) plate while adding minimal weight.

 

Powershells are a bit heavy. Perhaps your stiffened plate will allow a thinner G10 plate giving an overall reduction in weight. The safety from your mod will attract users and the performance will increase slightly (due to the weight decrease). You'll be famous!

 

Eric

[gator1]

@eleeski: plan is pretty close to your ideas. We're going to add an aluminum rail running most of the length of the plate. One on each side, about 0.100 thick, about 1/2" wide, only attached along the rear binding portion of the plate. Drilled with lightening holes to take out weight and look sexy. Rail will have a curve to it, slightly less radius then the ski surface. Rail will be joined at the rear by a cross member which holds the gatormod levers.

 

This will allow the plate to flex freely, until the heal starts to be lifted by the cords attached to the levers. As plate starts to bend, curved rail will rocker down on plate along the sides of the front boot, forcing the whole plate off the ski.

 

You are right, I think we'll be able to lighten up the plate.

 

@ob and I have been talking, looks like I'm gonna build one for him. Marines have been used for dangerous product testing for years. It'll be a piece of cake for OB.

 

@ab, I'll post some pics as this comes together.

[gator1]

@eleeski. Can't wait. Fame is what I'm all about.