Gotta Stop Plant Growth In Our Lake

[lhoover]

I researched a previous discussion but that thread was several years old. Thought there might be some new stuff around. Joe Darwin recommended Karmex (Diuron) but our lake owner balked due to no EPA approval for water use.

 

We have colored with Joe's dye (forget the name), but are being overrun with plants even out to 4ft deep. Have a few fish but owner also concerned about them.

 

More dye? Different chemical than Karmex? Need some help and many thanks.

[lhoover]

We are in Houston, by the way. We would invite you to come ski with us, but OB drank all of our beer when he visited in the Spring.

[oldjeep]

Zebra Mussels really seem to help the water clarity, but then you'll need a lot of blue gill to eat them.

[Kelvin]

@lhoover, we have sterilized grass carp. They work well, depending on the type of vegetation growing in the lake. A TPWD permit and a grate over the spillway are required. We don't have any negative issues with the grass carp.

 

Kelvin

[ral]

Grass carp is by far the best solution if you can have them. What is the concern with the fish?

[garyh20ski]

We are in Northern CA and DFG will not issue Grass Carp stocking permits to us. We had a pretty severe issue with Sago Pond Weed and Eurasian Water Milfoil. Last year we treated it with Reward. It knocked the weeds back but they quickly came back. This year treated with Sonar. First dose was liquid with two follow doses each 21 days later. The results were awesome. Weeds gone and have not come back. We did have a algae bloom after the weed die off. I think the decomposing weeds may have been a part of that happening.

[garyh20ski]

Forgot to mention the two follow up doses of Sonar were the slow release pellets.

[liquid d]

Stay away from chemicals if you can. None of it is safe. Period.

[Waternut]

The owner of our lake uses Diquat. He says it's friendlier to fish and other aquatic life but it sure takes out the weeds that reach the surface. You could see strong results in a few days.

 

Unfortunately, we haven't really figured out what to do with coontail or fanwort...not sure which we have but since it sits underwater, the diquat doesn't do anything to it.

[lhoover]

Kelvin, we considered the carp but very expensive and no way could they make a dent in our plant growth at the present. @Waternut, am I reading the directions correct on Diquat, i.e., approximately 1 gallon per 1 acre of water? You figure our lake is 13 surface acres X $100 per gallon? Mercy. Correct me if wrong or where to buy for cheaper.

[Wish]

What type of plant.? What are the depths? Have you contacted local universities? They will sometimes do research for free as part of a student project. Had every plant on our lake identified with percentage along with the percentage of the invasive plants, a full recommendation (products, amounts, application dir) to deal with it. We have use Aquithol granular for submersed and liquid for plants above the waterline.

[RichardDoane]

@lhoover - grass carp ROCK ! the Broho uses very little dye, and no chemicals, just fish, they take a few years to get up to speed but when they reach size they eat a ton of weeds

[ntx]

@oldjeep There is NO GOOD REASON IN THE WOLRD to introduce zebra mussels into a body of water that does not have them. The amount of stiches required to sew up skiers sliced up feet after getting out of the water at a tournament would be reason enough to keep them out of any ski lake. There are HUGE efforts around the country to help reduce the risk of them getting into lakes that currently are not infested. Do some research. They ARE NOT good for a lakes eco system. In fact, they may promote weed growth since they do filter and clear the water and allow addtion light thru. Zebra Mussels ARE NOT A GOOD IDEA. Look at what is happening to the Great Lakes area. (Michigan)

 

@lhoover You may be surprised how effective the grass carp can be. I have seen a lake get cleaned up pretty quick. In six months they cleaned out all the weeds and it got to the point where you did not need to weed eat around the water line. LOL They would come up to the lake edge and eat the grass growing at the edge.

[oldjeep]

@ntx - it was a joke. And we have plenty of them here in MN (although they really do make the water nice and clear)

[A_B]

@oldjeep, I thought you might have done too many yard sales behind the boat for a minute!

 

My guess is that you don't have enough dye in the water, so I would amp it up, and add White Amurs, (sterile carp). We had a bad algae problem and wasted a schload of money on Cutrine, etc., and until we got concentrated dye and Amurs, we were pissing in the wind..

 

To knock out the full light spectrum hitting the weeds, you need acid blue #9 (Erioglaucine) and acid yellow #23 (tartrazine) in a 10:1 ratio blue to yellow. Which is the make up of Aquashade. We don't always add yellow, but always have a deep blue color to our water. Some of the Amurs are now about 30" and they eat algae when weeds are not on the menu, and they chow down when you see them in action on a shoreline.

 

Our water is so clear this year it is unreal. We can see easily 6 feet deep like it is drinking water. Everyone has commented on how clear it has become. Also skiing pretty good too!

 

Google Sensient if you want to look at their commercial products. Much more concentrated than Aquashade, but I would put in more than their recommended coverage for the first couple years. I think the aesthetic color recommended is lighter than what you need if you have a severe problem. Dudley Chemical will sell you powders, which is another option, but messier.

 

To give you a rough idea, we use liquid blue dye concentrate, and the first year, we used about 25 gallons @ 50% solid content, (the stuff comes out like syrup). Our lake is 2,000 feet by 300' average, and 18 feet deep. So we put about 100 pounds of dye in for the initial charge. Now we add about 50-60 pounds each year in the Spring before the water heats up.

 

One downside to dye is that the water may not be as hot as before. There is no scientific data on this, but some ballers have posted this, so it probably has some credibility to it. I would rather ski in a couple degrees cooler than a bunch of weeds though. Our lake is not noticeably cooler to the other non-dyed lake that I ski in, and that lake has a weed problem. I have to clean all my stuff before I put them back in my lake to help avoid transfer.

 

 

[BobF]

+1 on grass carp. Last year our weeds had gotten to the point of reaching the surface in the shallow end of our course (6 ft). Stocked some carp very early this year and have seen dramatic improvement this season. They are expensive initially, but far less expensive than chemical treatments in the long run. We had to buy the 12+ size to help prevent theft by eagles.

[Waternut]

@lhoover I know the guy who owns our lake didn't use the 1 gallon per acre like recommended because he says the treated water goes over the dam before it can fully be effective. He used the broadcast method and just sprayed the weeds poking up through the surface. I think he used 1 gallon the first day and maybe another gallon a week or so later. It was still a massive improvement.

 

I'm sure fish would be the best choice if you can contain them. Unfortunately we can't. They will either swim up the creek or they'll spill over the dam. I would be curious to hear about other chemicals and options.

[ntx]

@oldjeep. Sorry I did not get the humor. @lhoover is in the Houston area of Texas. That part of the country has not seen the Zebra Mussel problems that exist in the Graet Lakes region of the country. My guess is that he has no idea what a zebra mussel is or the damage it does. So far, Texas has been spared the problem. In the last two years there has been some infestation in the most northern part of the state. The DNR and Texas Wildlife have a campaign of awarenss of the problem, and are trying to educate boat owners about how to not transfer the problem further.

[oldjeep]

@ntx - the humor here would be someone suggesting intentionally introducing carp into a body of water. We've got huge carp problems and the ones we have here are pretty dangerous to boaters and skiers. Grass carp are banned in MN regardless of if you have them "fixed" ;)

 

http://www.suttlefish.com/grass_carp.html

[Kelvin]

@ntx - I just read an article about zebra mussels being found in Lake Belton. That's getting too close to home.

[ntx]

@kelvin I know they are in Lake Texoma. I had not heard that they had gotten all the way south to Belton. Yes that is too close. I first saw them about 10 years ago on a lake that I grew up on in Michigan. Having been away from that area for a long time, I did not know the history behind them. What was interesting, was that on my last visit to Michigan this past summer, the same lake was no longer infested. Talking to the locals, they said that after a unusally harsh winter a year or so ago, they disappeared from that lake. The weed growth was as bad as I had every seen it.

[skier2788]

@waternut what is your situation? Lake, river? Said flowing over the damn. Any fish? Is the water used for irrigation or drinking water? I did aquatic weed control for an irrigatiin ditch company for awhile. It all depends on the above as to what I would recommend.

[Waternut]

@skier2788 I know the owner does let people fish in his lake and there are other people downstream that he didn't want to piss off. However, no one uses it for irrigation or drinking.

 

It's basically a creek. There is no current to speak of but there is enough flow into the lake that he can drain it and it would be refilled in a week. Sometimes when it's really hot, he'll drain it and let the sun cook the weeds for a week before refilling but he hasn't done that the last couple years.

[skier2788]

Cascade is the first that comes to mind. There is another one that worked better called nautique but cant remember if it killed fish.

[The_MS]

@Waternut If you have a flow out, you may not get a good product to stay in the water long enough to have a good result killing it. Carp will swim away and would be a waste of money. A contact herbicide on weeds above the waterline will work, but something like karmex or Sonar will just run out the end of the lake before it takes full effect.

[oldjeep]

One more thought - any way to get a harvester onto the lake? There are some services around here that will clean out weeds for $$$ with a big pontoon harvester. Or if you had enough interest on your lake, maybe you could buy your own Weedoo.

 

 

 

[Waternut]

We've dragged a cable behind the boat a couple times to kind of grab weeds in certain areas. That works pretty well but it's time consuming and laborious. If it's a really windy day, we will drive the boat through the stray weed clumps to cut them up and let the wind blow them onto the banks. Our course stays pretty clean but the drop areas can get messy quick which is kind of why the big black plastic sheets seem like a good idea. The plastic does seem like it could be a huge mess though.

[Conor]

carp Do a great job keeping weeds and grass away at our lake. Our water is very murky though. It does not look inviting for a swimmer. Our lake is half frozen now, and hasn’t had activity in 4-5 months. It is still murky. Any advice on how to take the murk out? Over the off season, geese winter on the lake. I’m guessing 4-5000 goose turds end up in our lake every season. All that organic matter has to be adding to murk? I know it blocks the light for weeds,but we have too many carp and weeds are not problem. How can I manage the murk? I have read that decomposing straw has some affect. Any suggestions/advice?

[Horton]

@bishop8950

@billgalli

[BraceMaker]

@Waternut can't you contain the fish? If the inlet is just a small creek and the discharge sounds like a low head dam, I would think you could use something like a snow fence and keep carp in the lake - they're sterile carp.

[Golfguy]

Don't use contact herbicides,( too short term) weed cutter,(will scatter seeds) or Zebra Mussels.(???) White Amur and tilapia are good. Sonar is great to catch up, then let the fish maintain the weeds and algae. Fish will be your friends, White Amur normally don't take a hook. Tilapia devour algae.

[bishop8950]

@Conor ya, the geese are not helping. Beside being gross, their waste will feed all the algae and weeds already in your lake.

 

Is it a man made ski lake? What is the water source? How deep?

[Greg Banish]

We have Eurasian Milfoil in Pine Lake (Michigan). We also have Zebra Mussels. The Zebra Mussels most definitely DO NOT hinder milfoil growth, but they do make taking docks/lifts in and out more challenging.

 

Our lake was treated with 2-4-D for the Eurasian Milfoil and it seems to really help. It must be applied as a granule directly at the root at a specific water temperature. IIRC, it was about 50*F, so applications were early to mid spring here.

 

Another note: harvesting Eurasian Milfoil DOES NOT WORK. The little bits you cut of will regrow, so you're only spreading it if you do that. You must kill it at the root.

 

Beyond that, limit the fertilizer or nutrients going into to the water. Lawn fertilizer runoff is a big problem for us, but rotting leaves can also be a concern.

[Conor]

@bishop8950...... it is a man made lake. The water source is irrigation ditch with water rights, that flows into main lake and outflow empty’s into another backup lake. It is prolly ten feet deep at its deepest point. I have tried discussing how to make the lake a little more appealing to swimmers. The bottom feels like sludgy muck when walking. Some of other owners on lake are worried that treating the lake might change the way it skis. Thanks for any advice

[bishop8950]

Cool. Feeding water from the irrigation ditch will be a perpetual problem as you will get whatever contaminants along with the water. Wells provide a cleaner water source to start. But if you are designed to feed from the ditch you will have to make it work.

 

10’ should help because at that depth the boat should not stir up the bottom.

 

With the muck on the bottom, either leave it and try not to stir it up, or drain the lake and scrape it ($$). There are some enzyme products that help “digest” the muck but I personally have not seen a sucsess story.

 

There are a lot of treatment options for your water and some may make sense. You are typically targeting aglae or weeds. It’s a matter of finding what works for Your lake and on your budget.

 

For the murky water, I know alum works but it’s not cheap. I gave more info in another thread and you can probably search for that

 

On our ski lake, we had weeds, algae, murky water and muck. We got rid of the weeds with Sonar. The algae was addressed with various copper products. After that we treated with alum to clairify the water. Then added a bit of dye. It took a few years to get everything under control but our water is super nice now. The muck is still there and someday we will drain and dredge.

 

And, treating the lake may well change he way it skis. But most will not notice or care. I think it’s also mostly a short term affect. We drastically treated and changed our lake and no body noticed a significant skiing difference, including me running through 39.

 

I have attached some before and after pics. The white stuff in the water is alum going in.

 

 

[Conor]

@bishop8950 thank you for all your info. How much alum is required for treating a man made waterski lake and where can I purchase?

[bishop8950]

@conor NP.

 

We pay a professional to come in and do the alum treatments as needed. Look for water treatment professionals in your area. You spray it on the surface with fan nozzles from a custom boat. If you don’t do it right you will waste the alum. You will spend Thousands of dollars, say $5k/treatment give or take and depending on dose. It works immediately and 12hrs later the lake looked amazing. We did 3 treatments over 3 years and seemed to get everything under control. We haven’t treated in 2 yrs and keeping our fingers crossed we won’t have to treat very often going forward.

 

Every lake is different and you have to figure out what works for you

[Fatroll]

If you are dealing with eurasion milfoil in addition to other invasive species that grow in organic sediment, consider John Tucci from lake savers. He seems to have come up with a variation of aeration with bacteria treatment. that can help without dumping chemicals into your lake. We are considering this for our 300 acre lake, but are still doing some preliminary testing to make sure its a viable option for us. Which I expect it to be.

 

http://lake-savers.com/