Pull versus lean

[cragginshred]

I have the tendency to as Rossi said from one of my clips 'pull the boat' versus stack leaned away. What is the key to getting the ski on edge with using a lean versus doing it using the 'beach muscles'. Please try and think back to when you had trouble with this,...what was the key to your break through to not have to try too hard?

[Ed_Johnson]

The key is being able to get into your forward stacked lean position without ZO knowing your there....You need to be able to fall in off the apex, leading with COM "Inside Hip" and not PULL in on the rope. Also, if you carry to much speed into the turn, turn hard, and Hockey Stop the turn, you also just informed ZO your there.

 

Once ZO starts loading against you it becomes nearly impossible to achieve a stacked , lean position, and you will be stuck with the position you have...The goal being to be ahead of ZO to make it work for you and not against you.

 

 

[SkiJay]

If the angle and body position you take off the ball creates speed at about the same rate as you are increasing your lean, the lean angle and the speed can get pretty impressive. If you plant your ski at a right angle to the boat trying to take too much angle, and lean away as hard and steeply as you possibly can, even with a perfect stack, there can be nearly no acceleration, only extreme effort and a chick-magnet sized rooster tail.

[cragginshred]

'Chick-magnet'...wasn't that in 'Borat'?

[Ed_Johnson]

Your choice being do you want to ski like "Borat" or "Nate."

[ozski]

After spending 3 days with Nate and quite a few coaching sets one theme came through, drive the front foot through the turn and delay the lean / do your work behind the boat. Nate's words not mine.

[A_B]

If you were participating in a tug of war game, how would you position yourself? Would you be stronger using your biceps or whole body? To use your body efficiently and to its maximum potential, everything would be aligned and in balance with the rope and as you leaned away, your hip would be up in close proximity to the rope and your hands. This to me, is leaning vs pulling.

[Gloersen]

Don't bend your arms!

Straight arms, handle low, elbows to ribs.

Lean in the desired direction of travel.

[A_B]

[A_B]

or from behind, (although I don't suggest wrapping the rope around yourself)....

[Wish]

And they are all right foot forward. @AB that is a fantastic example. You could photo shop a ski on everyone of those guys and aside from the few that are a little to closed off in the shoulders, thats STACKED!! Will be using a photo like this with anyone who needs to know/understand what stacked looks like. Great visual.

[cragginshred]

No need to convince me, maybe I was misunderstood. The OP asks 'what was key in getting to this comfort level to fall into an aggressive 'lean' for you'............Try to think back many years ago when it was a point you had to work on. I understand 'arms bent, against vest ect, I am referring to the falling into the lean aspect of the lean. I see really good skiers just kind of fall into it. There is a comfort a skill level there that takes years, I assume it was not natural to do this?

[A_B]

The critical point is the finish and hookup at the end of the turn. Ideally, your extended arm is straight and you ski and hip come around under the handle and you simply grab with your off hand and lean. In an imperfect scenario, which happens a lot, the arms bend and pull the handle in to take up any imperfection and then go back to straight with elbows now locked on sides of your vest. What kills you is breaking at the waist as the handle comes in and not throwing your shoulders back before the boat picks you up. This is when brute force used to work against PP. Not so much against ZO. You just have to think 6" lower for your shoulders each time as you get comfortable leaning away.

[cragginshred]

Good stuff AB! The pull out is prior to dropping at the end of the pass is always good practice to lean harder than I do in the pass. not killing the gate and coming in to one ball immediately aided in skiing back to the handle (versus placing it at my hip) per the coaches in the in boat.

[ForrestGump]

The boat does the pulling. A lean is nothing more than setting a direction, getting into the stacked position, and blocking the pull of the boat. Adding anything, whether it's by dropping the shoulder or flexing the biceps turns the lean into a pull. When you've got two things pulling against the other, the stronger always wins.

[Ed_Johnson]

Agree with Shane, the stronger always wins. In this case ZO is the strongest and will let you know it. However, there can be "TWO" kinds of leans...First, if you simply lean against the boat, straight down the line, no matter how hard you lean, the ski will stay with you maintaining angle, but that's it.

 

Now, if you lean with COM in the direction of travel, ie; ahead of the rope at hookup, absorb pressure with the legs and not the arms and back, the ski will increase angle, and accelerate out ahead of you...By releasing the leg pressure as it accelerates, you can now form the Reverse C position, with a great castout..Thus giving you the momentum to ride the preturn out and up on the boat.

 

Point being, all LEANS are not created EQUAL !!!

 

 

[gginco]

What is COM?

[gginco]

Never mind....Center of Mass.

[estrom]

I watch Nate and it looks like he sets his back pocket on the ball and keeps his lean from there. In other words, on 2,4,6, he just sits his right back pocket on the ball and goes from there, holding a light and consistent lean position. Sure looks easy enough!!

[Razorskier1]

@ShaneH -- nailed it! Anything more than blocking and you are just digging your ski deeper into the water and creating unsustainable load. Played with this a little this morning because we had a lot of wind. First few passes I was fighting the wind by pulling harder. Made passes, but not good passes. Then started keeping up on top of the ski at the connection point and just moving with the ski/blocking. Smooth, easy passes even in a 15mph wind with associated 6-8 inch chop.

[cragginshred]

Any of you used the 'Whip' drill to learn proper lean. This is not for you boys who grew up on a ski lake and have mastered -38' (or maybe 30 years ago you employed the 'whip'). If you are like me (2nd season ever at a private lake) skiing 34mph and -22 but need work on your offside stack Seth teaches the 'Whip' to be able to seamlessly go from side to side in a great stack via a leaned on edge position.

I see the value in this but suck at it. I have found great success in pulling out up next to the boat and holding that position for the length of the lake to drill a properly aligned position and use this to warm up.

[ForrestGump]

Whip drills are great. If you can't get into the stacked position in the whip drill, you won't do it in the course. So just keep hammering at it. I'd start every set with a whip drill, if I were in your situation.

[SkiJay]

@cragginshred‌ Whip drills rock for stack building, but it takes perseverance. I did two to four passes of whips every set for about a year to improve my posture, and it works. A couple of years ago, I spent a lot of time training with Seth Stisher, and he started every set with a pass of whips. If they are good enough for a pro of his caliber, they are good enough for me.

[Wish]

To the original question, I can't remember when "stacked" out of the turn fell into to place for me but holy crap did it take a long time. My daughter on the other hand had it in no time. Drills drills and more drills. As stated above, they work. Chasing the little orange balls simply motivates the chase and little else in early stage skiing. Pick any sport and you can probably come up with a half a dozen drills consistently used that you've done, seen or heard about. Now name 2 for slalom skiing. Seth has several drill vids along with Gordon Rath.... My daughter spent lots of time leaning away from the boat in a stacked position the full length length of the course both sides multiple passes. Whip drills, gate shots and anything else I could come up with. Learning curve I'm sure has been shortened dramatically because of drills. Sooo wish I had those vs "..pull harder....pull longer...lean more...." worthless.

[cragginshred]

@SkiJay what are some particulars in doing them? I have not even tried them in a year or so.

Width

Line length/speed

In his video he kinda raises the handle then drops into it..

How did he instruct you?

 

The pull drill is a great warm up doing it on the left side of the boat to train my offside stack.

[SkiJay]

@cragginshred‌ For convenience, here is Seth's video on whips a.k.a. the rhythm drill:

 

I like doing this drill at 34 mph and 32 off because it takes the wake right out of play. I also do it at 35 and 38 off to further familiarize myself with the rope's dynamics at these line lengths.

 

Seth doesn't just "raise the handle," this is a forward reach as he moves weight onto the front of his ski to slow it down and set up for an efficient turn-in. Notice how far forward the water is breaking on his ski, especially on his off-side. As you get better at it, the cut will get more dramatic and send you wider. As you get wider, he recommends you go ahead and release with one hand as you normally would. The two handed reach is just a simpler version of the one handed reach while whipping at narrow widths.

 

Also note how purposefully he moves his hips through the wakes. He is already on his next turning edge by the time he gets to the second wake. He keeps his arms poker-straight at ALL times. He keeps his hips up and forward the whole time. He practices keeping his head level at all times, and he keeps his eyes high looking down the lake the whole time. This drill rehearses all of the fundamental movements at the same time.

 

The pulling drill provides familiarity with extreme lean angles, great practice at standing tall and stacked, and proper balance on the ski. Notice how putting more or less weight on the front of the ski moves you forward and back on the boat. The further forward you can get on the boat, the more efficiently you are moving your ski through the water. I shorten the rope to 35 or 38 off to reduce the bungee effect in the rope and because it keeps me inside the buoy line, both for safety. I revisit this drill regularly too, especially the off-side. It's a lot of work, so twice down the lake, once on each side, is all I used to do. Now when I do it, I do half of the course on one side and the second half of the course on the other side.

[cragginshred]

@Wish it is very encouraging to hear someone on this forum say 'it took a long time! I think most folks have been skiing for such a long time they forget. @Skijay great video, i have seen it many times but will re watch, study and try it coupled with the particulars you suggested!!