RTP Ankle Sprain and Solicitation for Solutions

[DefectiveDave]

Howdy Ballers,

 

I switched to an RTP this year to be like Nate, and Chris, and Will, and Thomas, and a bunch of others, but things haven't been working out too well for me. I'd adjusted well and was getting back to where I was last year when I caught some rollers and al...most went OTF. Instead I recovered and tried to settle back into my pull, but wouldn't you know it, only the ball of my foot was actually on the ski. It turns out that this is not a good thing and I managed to sprain my ankle pretty badly. That was about a month and a half ago and with constant skiing the ankle still hasn't recovered (in fact it's starting to get much worse), so I'm going on a break for a few weeks while it recovers. Actually, the real reason I'm going to take a break is because the pain is started to effect my skiing and I'm developing bad habits to compensate for the pain (I'm kind of being a pussy about it). However, this raises a couple questions which I thought I would throw out to the community. I've looked around for answers and haven't really found anything satisfactory, so here goes:

 

1) Is it common to pop out of an RTP?

 

2) Would I do better to switch to an RTP other than the one which comes with the reflex monoplate? This thing is really thick (though adjustable) and doesn't appear to elastically hold the foot in place like others I have used in the past, perhaps making it easier for the foot to pop out.

 

3) I'm also considering the r-style rear binding from reflex. Any drawbacks? Seems like a good compromise to me.

 

4) I'm thinking about switching back to a rear boot for the support while my ankle heals (you know, rather than resting). Is it possible to mount a back reflex boot with less than 1 inch spacing between the two? I know they sell double boot systems on the reflex website, but I worry about the spacing created by the silvretta release. I like my feet to be as close together as possible.

 

5) If I can't mount a second reflex boot, are there any other options? I would like to try the OB4 system based on the excellent review by @MattP‌, but I think the full double boot system is out of my budget for now. Anyway to rent one for a month? >:-)

 

Any and all comments are much appreciated, including insults to my manhood for letting a sprained ankle get the best of me! I mean, I really probably deserve it.

[Waternut]

I don't feel comfortable with RTP's with a flat bottom but once I start making turns, I forget about it. I use the Radar RTP because it has a heel cup. Bottom line though, popping out of a RTP in an OTF fall should happen 100% of the time IMO. I've popped out of my Reflex a couple times when I've blown the tail and managed to stay in the RTP though.

 

Ultimately, I think your accident falls into that freak accident that everyone deals with at some point. I think it's more important to ski on what you're comfortable with rather than searching for that elusive zero chance of injury setup. Your quest to prevent one type of injury will likely increase the likelihood of a different type of injury. Such is the nature of the sport. Guy I ski with sprained both of his ankles with double boots, I twisted an ankle with a RTP, injured my IT band with double boots, and pulled my ankle with a Reflex and RTP because the mechanism was too tight.

[skier2788]

@DefectiveDave‌ I would give the R style rear a really hard look. I went from a rear toe to double boots and am now back to the R style rear. I think it is a great compromise. I get the heel support a I was looking for in the double boots but the quick easy release of a rear toe.

[DefectiveDave]

@Waternut, @skier2788‌, and @DaveLemons,

 

Thanks for the input and experiences. I also wish there was a zero risk setup, but I don't think such a thing exists either and I'm not looking for one. I do however feel based on my experience that the reflex is better than my old wiley style binders, so I would like to stick with it.

 

What I'm really looking for is a way to keep skiing while allowing my ankle to recover. Then I would go back to either an RTP (I would replace the reflex RTP however) or an r-type. I actually took 2 weeks off when I first sprained the ankle, but it was insufficient. I'm concerned that if I really allow it to heal it could take upwards of a month, maybe more. I don't want to lose that much of the season if I can help it.

 

@DaveLemons,

 

I have tried an ankle brace (this one which got good reviews: http://www.asoankle.com) but it doesn't seem to provide the dorsiflexion support I need to protect my ankle in it's current state. I've considered taping my ankle, but I've never taped before and I'm not certain if I could tape in such a way to limit dorsiflexion. Quick note, dorsiflexion is when the toes bend towards the shin and this is what's causing the pain when it bends too much. I have considered an ankle orthotic (something like this http://knitrite.com/images/Product_IMAGES/Orthotic_Textiles/Active_AFO_Sock.jpg) to limit the range of motion which I could fit into an r-type binding.

 

I was considering a back binder for the immediate future because they provide the dorsiflexion support. The front reflex binder does a very good job of supporting my front ankle and I probably couldn't ski without it at the moment.

[Than_Bogan]

Because my balance is not amazing, and I have very narrow feet, and I move around a lot on my ski (wish I didn't, but...), I will never go back to a rear toe regardless of how many pros do. It's much too likely that my back foot can come out and I'm then facing a big lever that would be happy to shred my front knee.

 

I suppose maybe with a system that can release a single boot rotationally (is OB4 the only such system?) I might not completely rule it out.

[MattP]

@DefectiveDave‌ First all take the time off and let your body recover. I have skied with a sprained ankle and it was very painful. It took months to fully recover because I continued to ski with it.

 

I would say it depends on how you have your RTP set up. I have been skiing on a more custom RTP and have only slipped out 1 or 2 times in 100’s of sets. I would say the Reflex RTP is not the best choice on the market. Try a Willys or a Radar RTP. The rubber compressing your foot down is what is going to hold you in. The two part velcro overlay is more of a recreational RTP. If you are the only one using the ski get something that fits you.

 

I have grip tape on top of the alum plate I also use for a gum rubber overlay instead of the standard stuff. It is all personal preference I can still ski with the standard overlay but I like the gum rubber better. Also I tried a Radar RTP plate with their foam on it a few weeks back and I could not get around 2 ball. My back foot kept slipping out. The boat crew did not believe me @webbdawg99‌ was there and I switched out the plates and I was back to running passes. The foam was just to slick it could have been because it was new but either way it was not working for me.

[gregy]

I saw a rtp with a heel strap made out of a scuba mask. Guy said he got the idea while trainer with Seth Stisher. He really liked it.

[skier2788]

@DefectiveDave‌ have you tried skiing with an ankle brace? Cheap at walmart. Have skied before with one on and used a knee brace for awhile a couple of summers ago. I spiral fractured my leg just above my ankle and have a plate and 8 screws in it now. I am very prone to spained ankles. I think skiing with a brace would help the recovery time if you don't want to stop skiing.

[Razorskier1]

I've skied RTP my whole life. My experience is that if you think you are going OTF, then pull your rear foot and jump/roll forward while pulling your front foot. Double boot skiers get used to the idea that they want to stay in the bindings. My belief is that in RTP skiing, you want to get off the ski completely before you hit the water. No ankle or knee twists, no ski whacking you while you roll.

[BraceMaker]

Here's some bracing thoughts. Anything that goes BEHIND your ankle is suited to prevent plantarflexion - that is as you plantarflex the footplate pushes down which pushes the back of the brace (like you pictured) into the back of the calf.

 

A: what you want is something to BLOCK dorsiflexion, obviously the best solution for this would be in front of the shin and long. Something like a long tongue attached to the cuff of the boot and articulated such that it loads up and holds you back.

 

http://www.oandp.com/articles/images/NEWS_2006-10-28_09/6.jpg

 

 

 

However consider that the position you want your ankle to be in is one of dorsiflexion if you want to be able to get into an athletic position.

 

There were some threads discussing boot heel lifts - this is a way to get the ankle into a position of relative dorsiflexion with out actually moving the ankle. The more heel lift you can manage the less dorsiflexion you would require to get your tibia into the same forward angle.

 

http://www.nupoc.northwestern.edu/images/research/LE_Ox_Operf.jpg

 

How geeky you wanna get here?

[6balls]

Been on RTP for 30 yrs, it's never been the source of an injury.

[DefectiveDave]

Thanks everyone for all the input. It's been immensely helpful.

 

@MattP‌

I don't think I quite understand your setup. So the grip tap is directly on top of the aluminum plate with no padding? And the gum rubber forms the top strap to hold your foot in place? Sounds interesting and something I might want to try. I know Mapple was apparently selling some custom RTPs at one point.

 

@BraceMaker‌

I would like to get appropriately geeky if at all possible. I'm guessing you make braces? Based on my experience I appear to be good with dorsiflexion up to around 10 to 15 degrees. Plantarflexion is not a problem. Is there a solution that could allow somewhat nature planrarflexion and restrict dorsiflexion beyond approximately 10 degrees? The closest I found online during my "research" was this http://www.richiebrace.com/subpage.php?page=restricted. However, I do not believe it quite fits my needs.

 

I don't believe that I want to totally block motion of the ankle. The ankle lift idea seems like it might be a good idea though to help compensate for the lack of ankle motion implied by a brace. Is there such a thing as a hinged brace with a stop which can be set to a desired amount of dorsiflexion?

 

@6balls‌

I'm the source of the injury. The RTP was just the tool I used this time.

[BraceMaker]

@defectivedave - that richie brace product is essentially a rivet placed just above the pivot and then a slot cut into the shell behind it.

 

Essentially if you put the cuff "centered" and drill a hole through the cuff and shell, then take the cuff off and elongate the hole in the shell, put a rivet into the cuff and reassemble, then the rivet will hit on both ends.

 

I don't think this is the greatest idea - since the ritchie brace with that isn't for such large impact.

[fu_man]

I have been a RTP user my whole life. Used to have issues slipping out of the standard RTP on my Senate. I got some of this and haven't had any issues since then. They used to put it on old school skis but haven't seen it used much on new skis. Mapple referred to it on one of his videos as well.

 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Safety-Walk-2-in-x-15-ft-Step-and-Ladder-Tread-Tape-7635NA/100132176

 

 

[Ralph Lee]

if your back foot ever slips out, your foot is moving around, or your heal is lifting too much, your RTP is not sized right for you. you can customize it completely for very cheap. plate from a metal shop, custom sized rubber from wileys, gray 3m tape from ace hardware. move the plate farther back than industry standard, size the rubber to enable your foot to push further in. (drill wider holes for rubber pattern if necessary.) your back foot will have more control, better support, better grip, and your toes can still be the correct distance from your front boot. stock rear toe plates are a joke!!

[ScarletArrow]

I read this thread earlier and honestly thought, how could and injury happen to your foot in the RTP? The whole reason I switched to a RTP is b/c I wanted to avoid further injury to my back (right) foot. I thought if there would be anything close to a failsafe, this was it.

 

Well... as luck would have it, this past weekend my foot slipped out on my opening pass as I came off the 2nd wake into 3 ball. I instinctively tried to put it back in before I made my turn, and I think my toes curls under as I did. I fell while making the turn and now my middle toe is sprained (is that even possible?) and my ring toe is black & blue.

[dchristman]

@ScarletArrow‌ Anything is possible. Many years ago my back foot came out of the RTP and I ran over it somehow putting a deep gash in my heel with the fin. How that could even happen is still hard for me to comprehend.

[MattP]

@DefectiveDave‌ Yes, you have it right. I will post a picture for you when I can later today.

@ScarletArrow‌ Dude, just let go! No reason to risk an injury!

[DefectiveDave]

@Ralph Lee‌ and @fu_man‌,

 

I think I'm going to try the grip tape approach. I recently got a Wiley RTP from a friend in the 8.5-9.5 size range. I figured it was a good, free RTP and worth the chance. Turns out this one is a bit too small and I can't effectively get my foot stuffed in there (I'm about a 9.5 size, but I heard you want the RTP tight). It came out of it a few times yesterday, but only one sorta cool fall. Here it is:

 

 

Anyhoo, I'm going to take out the current bottom which is some sort of anti-slip surface with nubbs and replace it with grip tape. I'm hoping this will provide a little extra clearance to get my foot up in there as well. If not I might drill extra holes in the rubber to get a little extra room.

 

@MattP‌

 

That would be awesome!

[ScarletArrow]

@MattP‌ Lol! Instincts...competitive instincts! The only thing going through my mind was, "I don't want to miss my opener!"

[fu_man]

@DefectiveDave‌ you can also use some washers as spacers between the bottom plate and the rubber to "heighten" the rubber from the bottom plate. This might allow you to get your foot in further.

[DefectiveDave]

@fu_man,

 

I tried this last night and it might have worked. I can definitely get it in a bit further. We'll see how it works this evening on the lake. Thanks!

[DefectiveDave]

@fu_man,

 

The washer method actually seemed to work really well. I was able to get my foot about another 1/4" into the loop. I'm going to add grip tape tonight per the suggestion by @MattP and hopefully that will be the end of this adventure. Thanks everyone!

[MattP]

@DefectiveDave‌ How did it go?

[MattP]

[DefectiveDave]

@MattP,

 

I haven't slipped out or lost a pass due to the RTP since doing the washer and grip tape mods. So it seems to be working pretty darn well. You can tell it's working in the pic below from the layer of skin where my heal used to rest. I kid, I really haven't noticed any extra abrasiveness compared to the rubber. In fact, it seems as thought grip tape slicks up a bit in the water, but it's still a step better than the original nubbed rubber that came with the Wiley. It also gives me another 1/16" clearance to really get in there. Thanks!