PP upgrade?

[skibumm]

I have read about every thread on SG and Z-box. I am considering upgrading my PP on my 94 Centurion Falcon with Merc 350 Mag. Currently have PP pro. Now that I am reading all of the threads about people not having the consistency that they would desire through the course I am doubting my decision. Should I upgrade? if so to SG or to SG with Z-Box? Will I have the issues that I am reading about of either hot gates or slow gates and hot during course or slow then fast and all over the place? I was hoping upgrading would make the consistency of my pull easier to achieve not harder. I ski 50% in course and 50% open water and run into 28 off on a good day at 34mph.

[BraceMaker]

Do you have paddle wheel/use it for trick?

 

I wouldn't bother personally.

[skibumm]

I don't use it for trick I do use it for my daughters who are from 22mph to 28 mph. I do have a paddle wheel.

[lff]

Based on my experience if you're going to upgrade plan on going with the Zbox. Although I finally got SG to work it was a pain getting the ball timings(gate, 1ball, 3ball) adjusted. After I went to the Zbox it was dead-on from the start. Never tweaked anything - even with a short setup. Make sure you have the latest code level(8.0.5 ?) and don't forget about inverting the tach reading if you have timing issues. That made a huge difference on my '03 Malibu RLxi beginning with SG but I have read/heard it makes a difference on others too.

[ChadW]

The Zbox upgrade solved all of the surging problems for me. I would definitely recommend it. I have it in my 2000 SN 196.

[skibumm]

I just ordered SG upgrade with Z-box. After talking to the tech at PP it think it will fit my needs really well. I need something a bit more intuitive to use for my wife when she pulls in open water. All the people who drive in the course I am not worried about and we don't have a short setup really. Do you invert the tach on Mech linkage boats as well?

[pgmoore]

" I need something a bit more intuitive to use for my wife when she pulls in open water."

 

I guess I've never really considered this, but do the pull and feel characteristics of Zbox work in open water in addition to in the course? If the engine response is based on an accelerometer (as I think it is?) as opposed to the boat's position in the course, the various pull settings would be equally applicable in open water?

[east tx skier]

It may depend what mode you use it in in open water. There is a practice gps mode that we used to use with SG. The main benefit, if any, was that it wasn't waiting for gate input from magnets or coordinates or whatever. If you open water ski with it in regular GPS mode, the zbox should be in the mix.

[skibumm]

#east tx skier is saying exactly what support at PP told me. In practice mode it supposedly runs off gps speed and is based of baseline rpm. He also said that Z box will make speed adjustments quicker based on accelerometer. I hope that it works as stated. I will say the user interface appears to be easier to navigate.

[colo_skier]

@skibumm I have the pp with z-box. There is a thread here on BOS were I purposely ran diagonally through the entrance gates (mapped course) and out to free ski. The whole system worked as if there was a course going in that direction. Point of this is that when you go through were you say the course starts PP just times a course. This was in both practice and tournament mode. For free skiing I would guess that it would react as it does in the course it just wouldn't give you buoy times if you didn't super-impose a course on it. This is kind of confirmed if you really honk on the handle in your pull out the boat reacts and there you haven't got to the course yet.

[GOODESkier]

hands down a no brainer. PP SG with ZBOX is the ONLY option for us old technology boats......... AND IT IS A GREAT CHOICE!

[skibumm]

@GOODESkier‌ thanks for the endorsement. It arrives today so I should be able to test it out tomorrow. I am going to calibrate it using capture mode tomorrow because I am in a tight time crunch and have to be off the lake early for a lacrosse tournament. I am looking forward to it.

[Bdecker]

Apologies for resurrecting and old thread, but I am considering this upgrade and have a couple questions. Most of my more serious skiing takes place on a shared ZO club boat, so my 05 197 TT gets public lake duty but we have a course and a wide range of skiers. My dad likes to drive and my primary concern is ease of use.

 

Once I get it dialed in will it be ZO easy to operate or do we still need skier weight, crew weight, +/- adjust for wind, etc?

 

Will it get close to ZO consistency?

[nam1975]

@‌Bdecker

 

I use PP, no magnet system. 99 Response LX EFI.

I have not done the Zbox.

The Classic Mode is much more consistent pull.

 

I only adjust for crew weight, and it works pretty good.

Wind does have some affect and will get you a slow or fast time once in a while.

 

I am not the type to calibrate and dial in each segment in GPS mode.

 

If sometimes +or - .01-.05 bothers you and you always want to tweak, you won't like it.

This is WAY down the list on why I ski crummy sometimes.

 

If you can set it and forget it, its fine and was used for years.

 

It is not ZO.

 

 

My 2 cents.

 

 

 

 

[Bdecker]

Thanks nam1975, I have classic and have used it for years. Very consistent if you have a driver that knows how to get it right. ++kx and it almost feels like ZO, but I want to be done with magnets and trying to talk driver through times to look for, +/- for wind etc.

 

I can get it dialed in at my normal site with drivers that understand the system, as long as once it is dialed in it is good to go.

[Deanoski]

Save the money!! pp classic is great IMO.

Z box is cool but it is not the same pull as Z off. close to not the same.

 

want a z off feel got to have z off.

 

my 2 cents

[DanE]

Close to Zero off feel=1100$

Zero off feel= 40 000$+

[Texas6]

I agree - I've had z-box on two boats now, a 2003 197MC and now a 2005 196SN - It sucked on the 197 but its pretty darned good on the 196 - The only place I notice a difference is in the set up but its nominal. The set up using Z-box feels more like PP than ZO. I feel that ZO accelerates and then settles immediately prior to pulling out for the gates. To me all PP boats feel as though they are still accelerating a bit into and during the pull-out. I like ZO a LOT more in the set up - but in the course, Z-box feels exactly like ZO to me. The surging is no longer an issue. If you can get your SG to settle in and give consistent pulls, so will Z-Box.

-

[skibumm]

I have had my upgrade for about a month now and would upgrade again in a heart beat. Easier to use and the feel is great. is it ZO no. But it is damn close. The main benefit for me was the ease of use for my wife and daughter.

[mac]

@bdecker…we have the same boat, 2005 MC PS197 TT, and upgraded it to z-box (ver 8.05) earlier this summer. My ski buddy owns a SN196 with ZO; we ski behind both boats weekly. Our z-box reacts and feels exactly as his ZO. Z-box has multiple settings/adjustments that allow the user to tweak the system’s response to match the feel and pull of ZO. We couldn't be happier with this upgrade.

 

As a side note, as soon as you upgrade to SG, there’s no requirement to set winds, skier weight, etc, and realistically you can leave the crew weight alone unless you are on a very short setup.

 

[BruceEmery]

Been using Z box for three years. I feel that it is somewhere between SG and ZO. Like Deanoski said, only ZO is ZO.

[Bdecker]

Ok, so I understand surging is an issue. I have plenty of setup space and am reasonably confident that I can get it dialed in. My understanding after reading a ton of threads is that DBW boats like mine are perhaps better "candidates" for the upgrade?

 

My real question is how much of the "menu, menu, down arrow, add 10, etc" will I have to do from the water? Simplicity for the driver is my primary motivation, but if I go stargazer obviously zbox will happen too.

[Texas6]

@Bdecker, once you have it dialed in, there is literally no menu jujitsu, just plug in the speed, the ZO setting, and select the weight range of your skier (featherweight (under 120), small (120-160), normal (160-200), Large (200+) - and I don't know if skiere weight is even a necessity, I get good times regardless (within 2 hundredths if I don't mess with crew/skier weight)

[Ed_Obermeier]

DBW Stargazer is a total no brainer for the driver. Once you get it set up you just throttle up and the system does the rest. No further adjustments required and it consistently gives the same pull/times pass after pass.

[Zman]

So, my upgrade choices with a 2007 DBW boat with PP Pro Classic would be:

Stargazer for about $450;

SG with ZBox for $1100

Zero Off for about $3000 (with new ECM)

Wait until next August and buy 2015 promo with ZO (I plan to do this anyway).

Should I do one of the first 3 options for just 12 months before I get a new boat? I really like the pull of the PP Classic, but wondering if one of the first 3 options would help practice for tournaments.

And, if I do nothing until I get a "new" promo boat, does setting the KX to ++ and PX to 10 or higher help any. Anything less feels like a "soft" pull even with good times.

[Waternut]

@Zman what about dropping the baseline rpms a little but increasing your skier weight? Might give you a slightly more aggressive pull. PX is the rope switch. Are you using one of those?

 

Also I personally wouldn't bother upgrading your cruise system if you're planning to buy a new boat within a year. Now if you're considering the new boat for the sole purpose of the new cruise, that's a different story.

[rockdog]

@Zman‌ I believe your PP Pro would be the single line display which means to upgrade you will also need to upgrade to the SG multi line display which is around $400 I think.

[Zman]

Thanks guys.

@Waternut‌ Yes, I using the switch.

@rockdog‌ I do have the latest PP (non-SG) with multi-line display.

Will likely follow Waternut's advice and save my dough for the new boat, and focus on my bigger challenge - my skiing. And, starting bumming some rides behind newer boats.

[GregHind]

If you fit Zero Off, you should get some of that cost back at resale and it should be easier to sell too. Probably won't get the full $3,000 back, but if you were going to spend $1100+ on that boat for PP, I'd be tempted to get Zero.

[Bdecker]

Thanks for all the responses. The order is in, anxious to get it installed. We can do back to back comparisons with our ZO lxi until it gets time to winterize.

[jhughes]

We are struggling with Z-box on my 00 SN GT40. Our skiers are losing at least a full pass behind this setup vs. ZO. For me -22/34 is a huge struggle behind this boat rather than a pretty consistent pass on our actual ZO club boat. A guy used to running -28 w/ZO could barely get out of 1-ball today on this setup. Just sent an email into PP for some suggestions, maybe it's fixable but I'm totally disappointed. While times seem slightly more consistent than SG and end course times are in tolerance to some degree I'm still getting fast second half of the course times and the gate pull feels really soft. Listening to the video the engine sound seems constant rather than the reactive noise you hear on a ZO boat.

[colo_skier]

Sounds to me like your z-box isn't doing anything. Video of my boat you can hear the boat react just like a ZO boat. If I don't have the mode set to the A, B or C settings then the boat doesn't react like ZO. ie SG feels like SG. There is an old thread on hear by me on what I had to do to get mine dialed in. Maybe there is some help in it. Search for "wonky"

[DanE]

@jhuges If you have calibrated baselines properly with the right crew weight entered try background settings Ball1 35, Ball3 20, B4 to Xit 30.

raise ABC adjust to 2.

Sounds crazy? For that hull and Gt40 factory background settings are out of whack.

This is all assuming you have a properly working system i.e no sticking linkage, adequate voltage, preferably added return spring for the throttle lever, standard spring is really weak.

Try setting rpm mode reversed too.

[jhughes]

@DanE thanks, this is good stuff that I can't wait to try. Voltage is good (I added direct power w/relay) and linkage seems very tight doing the linkage test. I'm still using the factory return spring. Do you have a source for an additional spring?

[DanE]

@jhughes‌ Sorry, can't help you with that as I live in Sweden.

I just used a regular pull type coil spring and made a small attachement bracket for the fixed mount end.

[skibumm]

@jhughes any auto supply store will have carb springs

 

[jhughes]

After playing with the Zbox settings and the ABC factor settings I have it feeling much more like ZO now! Happy camper.

[Bdecker]

I highly recommend this upgrade. We hit a rock with our ZO Malibu during a clinic yesterday, so the 05 MC197TT was pulled into emergency duty. I finished up the install on the ramp.... Skied great right out of the box. Wish I had done this sooner.