The fourth broken 404 in four years!

[skialex]

I really prefer 404 over the newer ones but I break one every year, no crashes after the first one 4 years ago. I'm lucky but I also feel it and stop before the crash, I will put a 400 and see if it lasts! Anyone with similar issues?

[skialex]

 

[MattP]

I have snapped a few over the years. The newer black releases from Reflex are stronger but after looking at the cost of a new release and binding as well from a safety aspect I settled on the OB4 System after breaking my last 404.

[DanE]

@skialex Exactly what is it you prefer with the 404 vs the 500/750 since it breaks so frequent?

[oldjeep]

Aren't those ancient snow ski touring bindings?

[Cam]

I've been using 404 releases for 14 years and never had one snap but had 2 seize inside after using them in salt water.

I have seen one snap but the skier was a lot more aggressive skier than me.

[Waternut]

I'm also very curious what is so special about the older releases that makes them worth the hassle of breaking them.

[skialex]

@DanE‌ @Waternut‌ I will try to explain the why, forgive any language mistakes, English is not my native language.

You know that all alpine bindings and boots manufactures have adopted a universal standardize fit for their products and for at least the last 50 years any boot fits to any binding, that is also the case with Silvretta. If you take the alpine version of 404 or 500 you can use them with any alpine boot but for the 500 in order to clip at the same position the release is attached to an extra lever which is attached on the plate. When you take the rear release only and use it on a Reflex plate the 400-404 clips like on an alpine boot whereas the 500 clips on the heel block on a different height that is why they made a new heel block for the newer models and you have to respect the 57mm otherwise the system can release without warning. I prefer the security that the 404 gives, furthermore on the 500 the spring brakes and you crash without knowing why ( they now change the spring to the 750).

I believe, to my opinion anyway, that 500-750 should be attached to different Bases to compensate for the height difference and not to a higher heel block.

All the above is my personal opinion on why I prefer the older releases over the newer ones.

I'm putting now a 400 which has the welds higher on the straight part and hopefully it will last longer!

Alex,

[skialex]

@Cam‌ I'm definitely not an aggressive skier, I'm trying hard to be more technical, ski equipment lasts for great time with no breaks or unusual wear except for the releases and they always break at the same side. I put a new 400 and we'll see!

[DanE]

@skialex‌ Soo what your saying the 500 had a problem they now have solved with the 750?

Reason I ask is I just bought a new Reflex boot with the 750.

[liquid d]

You've broken 4 of them and are still using them? Why? Sooner or later, you're going to get hurt.

[skialex]

@DanE‌ 750 is exactly the same as the 500 with a new better coated spring and a stainless steel screw. Spring should last longer than on the 500 and whoever wants to upgrade can buy the new spring and screw for €14 at Reflex.

[Cam]

@skialex like you I prefer the 404 and have bought up a few from snow skiers to build a small stock to keep me going for a while.

I don't think the aggression has anything to do with them breaking I was thinking more corrosion due to using in salt water so went to take a photo of one of my older 404's with some corrosion when I realised that the original design also has a "sideways" release (see pic) so it could be that we are using them outwith their original design specification and the sideways/lateral torque could be the cause for the breakages, but I am no expert.

 

[skialex]

@Cam I have a stash of new 404s and my broken ones have no corrosion at all and I too use them in salt and fresh water but every time I go back home I use my air compressor to dry the moisture and then I spray it with silicon spray, see the photo below, no rust!

[skialex]

You might be right about the sideways release and the stress to the metal!

[skialex]

@liquid d‌ I have not crashed yet whereas other friends of mine have crashed multiple time due to broken springs or poorly maintained systems.

[Cam]

@skialex‌ your spring tension looks pretty high compared to mine, the only one I saw broken was set at 7, I weigh 180 lbs and have always been set at less than 5 so guessing you are putting a lot more stress on the unit when you release, just a thought.

[BraceMaker]

@cam - exactly what I've been saying about the silvrettas.

 

However - if you examine all the single boot release systems/boots you will come through a conclusion.

-This is more for the ankle preservation thread really.

Rubber - no torsional release (ask me how I found that out.) - won't.

Lasted boot with liners that pull out - won't

Reflex - Won't.

Interlock/goode - won't.

 

My conclusion is that torsional release becomes less important when you run a dual boot set up. With both in you don't see the full torsional force on one ankle, and in fact torsional release MIGHT be more dangerous in a dual boot situation. Consider you rotate one boot hard enough to separate it from the ski while the other remains intact - and most likely you'd separate your front binding and not the rear, resulting in the tremendously damaging front foot out back foot in crash - good tibial snapping/back of head smacking crash.

 

On the flipside - I think torsional release is necessary for a single plate - and I suspect the OB4 single plate looks worthy.

[Waternut]

Judging by the way the metal is broken, you are definitely putting a lot of pre-stress on that arm to cause a failure like that. Is that a heel block? Could have a lot to do with it. I'd be curious to see the surface of the break to see if that was an all out failure or whether this has been building for some time.

 

Regardless... I'm truly amazed that the sole safety mechanism for your bindings has broken 4 times now and you are still using it. That's like saying that the airbag in your car may or may not save your life in a crash but it's guaranteed to go off once a year and possibly kill you for no apparent reason. Would be the last time I ever drove that car...

[skialex]

@Cam yes you might be right, I always set it just bellow 7 and I also weight 180 Lbs but it releases when needed without any stress to my foot, tendon etc. there is a possibility that my custom Teflon heel block stresses the release more than it should, I have trimmed it down a little, a year ago but as we can see it did not make a difference. It could be the tension, what number do you set it at?

[skialex]

I do not release more than two-three times a season, this season I have released only once. I work on my stack and avoid OTFs at all cost.

[Cam]

@skialex mine is set just below 5, the lowest I have used it is 4.5.

[giddyup]

why do we not see more people running REFLEX boots front and back, i see that reflex makes double boots, but i see very few people running them?

[skialex]

Few skiers run double Reflex but to my belief most skiers want the rear boot to allow for some movement that is why Goode uses a set of springs on the rear boot to allow heel lift or Reflex sells the R-style that also allow for some movement, some use rubber rear boot such as Wiley's and of course RTPs.

It all comes down to personal preference.

Also to my opinion I think that use of double Silvrettas do not guarantee that will release simultaneously!

R style is much safer choice

 

[Doug]

I have a brand new green 404 that I will sell cheap never used still in the bag

[Chef23]

@Doug I sent you a message about the release.