BigDawgs finals delay and protest - chronology

[Horton]

To say that the 2014 BigDawg finals did not happen as planned would be an understatement. Until the last paring of the final 4, it was perhaps the most enjoyable webcast I have ever seen. Kudos to the great guys at WebCast-TV.

 

After a morning on the phone with officials, skiers, and spectators, I understand the details of last night’s BigDawg final as follows:

 

It was pretty dark, and visibility was a factor.

 

Another factor is that the officials were asked to keep things moving for the WebCast and spectators on site.

 

The pairing was Miller vs. Rogers. They both ran opening passes.

 

When it was Miller’s turn to run 39, he ran it without issue.

 

As Rogers was getting ready to make his deep water start and head down the lake for his 39, a VW Jetta was driving along the berm between the lakes. On the bumpy road the car’s headlights were essentially creating a strobe effect. The bouncing headlights were reported by one source to be bad enough to distract the boat driver and impact the boat path. Others on site strongly disagree that the distraction was no more than the other skiers encountered.

 

Because of the light distraction (or not), Rogers did not run 39 and immediately requested a re-ride. While the judges were being polled, the boat with Miller brought him back to the dock. By this point, the clock was ticking, and time was an issue.

 

When the decision was made to grant Rogers a re-ride, Miller requested a warm up pass. The fact was, that after Miller ran 39, he had to wait for Rogers to request the re-ride, then for the re-ride to be granted, and finally for Rogers’ second attempt at 39. This means that Miller was waiting longer than he would have preferred between his 39 and 41 passes. Because it was believed by the officials that all of this happened within the 10 minutes allocated by the rulebook, Miller’s request for a warmup pass before his attempt at 41 was denied.

 

Rogers ran his re-ride attempt at 39.

 

Miller then ran 1 at 41.

 

Rogers then ran 1.5 @ 41.

 

At this point, a faction of the skiers on site felt that Rogers had been given an unfair advantage and protested in mass. They asserted that Rogers should not have been granted a re-ride to start with, and that because Miller had to wait so long between his 39 and 41, he had a potential disadvantage. The result of the mass protest was an hour delay in the event. Spectators on shore walked away, and I can only imagine what happened to the webcast viewership.

 

An hour later, Mapple and Rogers finally went out as the final pair, and Mapple won.

 

In my opinion, the victory was far overshadowed by the previous round. The skiers were divided and angry, and the show became a farce. The value to sponsors was tarnished. If skiers wish for BigDawg type events to continue, they need to understand the idea of “don't bite the hand that feeds you”. At some point, the skiers have to understand that the judge’s call is final even if they disagree with it

 

Notes:

Sources strongly disagree about how distracting the light was and/or how different it was for Rogers compared to the other skiers.

 

There will be rumors of conspiracies. Don’t be silly.

 

Some skiers assert that there is an unwritten rule about not asking for a re-ride in a Head to Head. If there is such a rule, it is “unwritten”.

 

[gregy]

In that situation could the driver have stopped the pass before it started?

[Marco]

That seems like an accurate summary except for one small detail. If the vehicle in question was indeed on the berm between the lakes, it could not have been a VW Jetta. The only way on to the berm is a narrow bridge barely wide enough for a golf cart.

[Wish]

Described to be bad enough to distract boat driver... Is the driver part of the deciding team in a situation like that? And did the driver have input? Miller should have had a warm up pass....IMHO.

[gregy]

@marco I wonder about that too. I didn't remember it being that wide.

[lakeo]

John,

Thank you for your efforts on the Big Dawg. But in the end I love the Big Dawg. These people Chet, Jeff, Ben, Jeff Dano, et al are my heros regular guys. I'm sorry there was controversy but I will continue to follow and love the BigDawg Thank you Greg Davis!

[ScarletArrow]

If we are relying on unwritten rules to govern our tournaments, controversies are inevitable.

[Horton]

as happens in life a sequence of unfortunate events can be interpenetrated differently by those present and can lead to unforeseen outcomes

 

[6balls]

Nice summary.

[ForrestGump]

Weren't they using the lake next to the jump lake for primary slalom, which has a street between the two on one side and the more narrow berm on the other.

[mwetskier]

it would seem fair for miller to have been given a warm up pass but you also have to consider that the amount of time he waited may not have been much more than the time rogers waited before having to run a semi cold 39 for a second time.

 

also all the tourney rules that have been written so far govern how an event is conducted and if the judges followed those rules then its wrong to argue they should have violated them just to appease sponsors skiers or any one else. only the judges are qualified and empowered to decide if the distraction was unfair enough to qualify for a re ride and that should be that.

 

@OB -i almost always favor any post you make but it surprises me that a former military man such as yourself would encourage the rank and file publicly questioning the controlling authority. isnt it supposed to be ' we follow orders or people die '?

[Razorskier1]

Thanks @Horton. Too bad this had to blow up like this. All in favor of daytime finals say aye!

[BG1]

Aye!

[BG1]

I’ve never heard of this unwritten rule but I’m not in the loop. Evidently Jeff, who has been at it for 25 years, and the officials had not heard of it either. Dave should have been granted a warm-up pass.

[Zman]

Nay

[RazorRoss3]

I think Miller should have gotten a warm up, past that I can't argue unwritten rules, written rules, and I wasn't there so I can't comment on conditions.

 

For changes I would be for anything that allowed skiers to ski at their best, if that means day skiing then Aye

[kstateskier]

Who was the boat driver? he/she should have weighed in on the decision for a reride (and he/she most likely was).

 

Spectators are in no position to weigh in on the distractive nature of anything for the boat driver or skier.

 

If the delay was long enough that Dave was brought back to the starting dock then he should have been allowed a warmup pass. Seems like the right thing to do in honor of sportsmanship due to the lengthy delay.

 

Which official (chief?) is in charge of timing the delay process with regards to a reride request and the 'other' head to head skier?

 

Sounds like Dave and Jeff both handled themselves with the utmost respect (as expected). Lets learn from this and move on.

[gregy]

@ShaneH‌ BD finals were on lake 2. Lake one was the Jump lake. There is a road between them (2 and 3) and the parking area was on both sides of the road. The berm is between lakes 2 and 3. @mwetskier‌ Jeff got to run his then 39 2nd time which he got the re-ride on. Then Dave had to go straight into 41 after the wait, so I can definitely see his argument for a warm up pass.

[SkiKolb]

I was there and I have bad taste in my mouth. If the skiers will stick to skiing, and let the judges do the judging, the event would have not had a delay, and the same result would have resulted. And a lot of us would have seen the final bracket.

[oneski]

I believe the skiers get to pick their own drivers. If this is true then the driver for Jeff couldn't be considered impartial.

[Horton]

I believe those two drivers are beyond reproach

[skibug]

@Horton, Are you sure it was the VW Jetta on the berm or was it the VW bug up on the grassy knoll?

[skibug]

Did Rodgers head go back and to the right when he saw the light?

[liquid d]

The drivers have no "Dawg" in the hunt...except all of us. They can be considered impartial.

[Ralph Lee]

who was the jackass driving the car?

[klindy]

I have been told that the event was run class L so I anyone skied well the score meant something. If that's true, there are rules with govern rerides, protests, warm up passes etc. Go thru the process and move on.

 

Alternatively, run the night portion as a class F, adjust any rule you want (including no reride requests if that's what you want) and put on a show.

 

The end result was fine. Any other option would have been fine. What wasn't fine was the 1+ delay, zero information and relatively public controversy.

 

Also there's no way anything bigger than a golf cart was on the berm between the lakes. I've just spent a week on and off that bridge and if you're knees hang outside the golf cart they'll be bloody on the other side. Golf carts have lights too.

 

[SkiKolb]

Skiers do not pick driver, the top seed gets to pick to go first or not. Car was not on berm but at the end of the lake flashing lights as he approached course at 39 is what I heard from more than one source. Whether it was intentional or not we may never know.

[Alvin_Neff]

@skikolb- I was there also and you are right on; the few individuals who started the mass protest acted immaturely and delayed the event. Dave Goode even verbally attacked Andy Mapple who was waiting on the dock to ski against the winner of that matchup. I guess Tyler was in the dark because the spectators were never informed of the details or facts concerning the reride. It is a sad day for waterskiing when Dave Goode and other Goode ski team members, who I will not mention, caused this kind of scene. They acted like kids throwing a temper tantrum. I cannot believe this happened to Andy being blamed for anything at all. I talked to Andy this morning and he handled this situation with the utmost integrity and respect for our sport. He is the true Big Dawg Champion and he deserves the respect and recognition for all his accomplishments and contributions to waterskiing!!!

[EricKelley]

Last year they had no problem denying my reride request. They told me a 32 start and gave me a 35 start. They said the show must go on and refunded my entry fee. Probably the right decision. Horton, it swings both ways, Nautique gets a tremendous amount of advertising and publicity with very little investment. I am thankful for the tour, but the Dawgs feed Nautique as well.

[Nando]

Razorskier1- Aye! I don't know how these guys are able to ski in night events- it's really difficult and there are enough variables during a regular event. It seems like skiers should be given the best chance to do their very best, and that's tough to do at night events. They make a great show, but...

[Wish]

@Nando‌ It is a show. Just like the pros that get tossed in front of crowds at public venues that have poor conditions at best. Ever ski at the Masters? Conditions ain't great. But everyone is there to compete to win, not set records. It's a public venue. Do we e want the sport to be in front of Jo public, or do we want these guys to stay home and ski tournys on their private lakes. No show, no advertising, no web cast, no prize money.... That simple. If Lights keep the Dawgs skiing then so be it. Rather that then chance it being just another tournament that few get to see.

[SkiKolb]

@Alvin_Neff‌ I agree with you. It was goode that Andy was still able to get 2 at 41 after that! I wish the judges could of thrown a penalty flag to the protestors. Maybe we as skiers need to adhere to a conduct code of sportsmanship?

[Ralph Lee]

personally I'm thankful for the spoiled brat, poor loser, softball guy who should of made it to the 'big leagues' behavior by all those involved. because of their poor sportsmanship i was able to attend a wedding and still catch the end of the webcast. congratulations to andy and jeff! heard it was a really hot day down in texas, maybe people got dehydrated and weren't thinking clearly...

note to all goode representatives, next time you guys are in such hot weather, fill up your baby bottles with gatorade!!

[KeownFILMS]

Anyone that knows Jeff will tell you that he doesn't like to "rock the boat" per se. He is very competitive but he isn't going to cause any drama. I'd bet money that if he knew all of this would've happened over a requested re-ride, that he would've never asked for it.

 

It's unfortunate that the judges were held up for so long, but they made a decision, and you have to go with what they decide if you want to be a part of the sport.

 

Some of you may know that in the late 80s Jeff ran 39' off in a tournament to set a world record, but apparently the boat path was a bit off, and it was denied. From what several people have told me, the boat was actually too far off the path in the opposite direction of Jeff, thus making it harder for him to complete the pass. Does he think that sucks? Probably, but he too damn nice to tell anyone if he ever felt sour about it.

 

It's just unbelievable that so much drama has come from something that Jeff Rodgers did (Rodgers is spelled with a "d" by the way). Honestly, I am blown away by how humble and unassuming he is for being one of the best to ever get on a ski.

 

Just imagine if the tables were turned. Could anyone see Jeff posting his public opinion on this forum, much less anywhere, or there being an hour delay? There's nothing wrong with Dave telling everyone how he feels, but I don't see Jeff doing that in a million years.

 

The Big Dawg is damn lucky to have him participate, and I wouldn't blame him if he just stayed at home next year...but then again, he's a freakishly nice human being, so that may not be the case...I hope.

[Stevie Boy]

Always lessons to be learnt, it's done, so we have to move on, looks like extra work for the organizers, to ensure vehicles are parked away from the arena, or all vehicles must reverse in and drive away from the lake, should there be a road adjacent, maybe screens, or a row of lorries to act as a screen, not easy.

It is a shame that such a fantastic event should, run into these issues, the other way round it is to simple have a competitors meeting and state clearly, if there are to be any re-rides, under what circumstances that they will be given consideration.

I must repeat, the organizers, helpers and sponsors of this event are doing, a superb job and I do not under estimate the amount of work that goes into making it the high light of the year for many people, as well as promoting the sport of water skiing.

I thank all of the Organizers, Helpers, Officials, Competitors and Sponsors for running this event, let's not dwell, on what was a unfortunate occurrence during the event,and move on.

More to the point, how do you control a individual who obviously was not aware that the headlights of his vehicle were going to distract water skiers on the lake, and clearly was totally oblivious to the impact that he was going to have, on the outcome of such a great competition.

[LeonL]

Wow the attacks continue, like a shotgun. And @OB, I personally don't take wrong calls to my benefit. I just stop. But that's just me, and after 25 + years in this sport I've heard the refrain a thousand times-" always keep on skiing, the judges might have missed the call". I don't adhere to that but it would seem that almost everyone does. @Alvin_Neff‌ , you say Dave Goode verbally attacked Andy. What reason and to what end was that all about. What "Dawg" (pardon that one) did Andy have in that fight? Sure ski brands were involved, but to let such a thing as branding come into play is the ultimate disgrace to our sport.

[ToddL]

I hope it is not about brands to the point that some think. I would not be interested in watching the Nautique/Goode Riders' Team Internal Ski Competition. I want to see the top 34 MPH skiers (who ski on any stick, who train behind any boat) doing their best for that title.

[Alvin_Neff]

@LeonL‌-I do not want to comment further on all the specific details of what was said, but you are right. Andy told him that he was just there skiing and that he did not have a dog in that fight. He was ready to ski against either one of them and would have beat either one of them on that night. It is a shame that some accused him of things like: manufacturing a win, or pre-planning this for many months. Andy Mapple may never comment on this forum about those involved, but all of those guilty parties should make public apologies to him. @SkiDawg- maybe you want to comment on what happened? I feel terrible for Dave Miller too, but Jeff Rodgers is also a class act. He was entitled to the reride under the rules of our governing bodies and would never have intended to stir this pot that boiled over. Most sports would have ejected, fined, or even banned some of the individuals from ever competing again. Now it is time to let others sort this out. I love the event and appreciate Greg Davis, Nautique, O'Brien, and all of those involved for bringing us such a unique event.

[Zman]

Just for the record, what sports would ban their top competitors from ever competing again for asking for clarification and some complaining? Guess I have not seen these sports yet. Really?

[ToddL]

A little bit of a cross post here...

 

A number of spectators on site (who were aware of the situation) discussed many ideas about how to handle the re-ride situation. They included:

1) Due to the delay assocaited with ruling on the re-ride request, the officials should have brough both Dave and Jeff back to the dock end of the lake, let Dave has his warmup and let Jeff take his re-ride, then continue as appropriate.

2) After the protests occurred with such "enthusiasm",

a) completely re-do the Jeff/Dave bracket.

b) take all three to the finals and have a three boat "head-to-head-to-head" final.

 

(Personally, I think the 3-boat final would have been a positive way to handle it and the spectators would have gotten more engaged in watching something unique like that.)

 

I hope this Advisory Committee (as suggested by Greg Maloon - see letter in the other thread) will address the delays and determine a process and list of pre-approved solutions for how (and for how long) critical decisions by officials will be reviewed and (when under protest) resolved.

[Alvin_Neff]

@Zman-I am sure you have seen many athletes ejected, fined, and put on probation for poor sportsmanship! Really?? They were not asking for rules clarifications!! They were almost to the fist fighting stage of an argument. Maybe you should ask around before making such comments!

[David Miller]

Guys everyone is missing the point the bottom line this is not a Pro Event and all the Big Dawgs know we dont ask for rerides due to lights. Point is lights are everywhere out there. Its not about Jeff being a bad dude he just did what he would do in any pro event. The reason all the Big Dawgs went wild over this is because we all know the show goes on no matter what! I guess you could call it a un written rule we would not ask for a reride due to lights because it would cause a lot of tension between us as friends and competitors not to mention delays in the event. Jeff is an awesome guy and I am sure he would not do the same thing again in the future!

[ScarletArrow]

Can somebody please write down all the unwritten rules for me?

[Zman]

Alvin. You still answer the question regarding your comments of banned for life. But, never mind. Not opening this chat thread again anyway.

[David Miller]

As I said in a previous thread the reason all the Big Dawgs went wild is because none of them would consider asking for a re-ride due to lights. Its just not something that would cross our minds. It is not that Jeff is a bad guy he just hasn't been a part of the Big Dawg group long enough to know. He did what he would do in a Pro event. I am not upset or mad at anyone I just want to make sure this never happens again. We cant start asking for rerides due to lights or flashes ever! And you cant tell the crowd not to take flash pictures!!! Come on that is crazy I think it is so cool with all the flashes going. It makes the event awesome. As skiers we need to focus on the course and our skiing not whats going on around us!! Thats the Big Dawg!!!!!

[E_T]

@Alvin_Neff‌ that's typical Goode when he doest get his way

[Tim Vaio]

This is a night event ..... What happens at night? People use lights to see, drive around, take pictures, etc. unless there was something that occurred that created an unsafe condition for the driver, a re-ride should not have been granted. If the condition was unsafe, the driver should immediately tell the boat judge about the condition before the skier even had a chance to request a re-ride or slow the boat down and get the skiers attention to stop. Unsafe would be something like a laser pointed at the boat or skier or something else intentionally trying to distract the driver or skier. A car or golf cart driving down the berm using lights to see at night could have happened to anyone.

Even though this happened, the only people who should have been engaged at all in this discussion should have been the impacted skiers or designated skier representatives period. I have personally been involved and seen this type of situation occur in tournament little league baseball, high school baseball tournaments, soccer tournaments, etc and it is uncomfortable while in the midst.

I am sorry this occurred and glad my boys weren't there to witness this difficult situation.

[Chris Rossi]

This seems like a judging/organizing issue to me. Every athlete wants to win and if they feel they have been wronged or presented an unfair disadvantage, should stand up for themselves and ask for a re-ride (Pro, Big Dawg, or amateur). This does not mean in any way that the re-ride should or will be granted. That lays in that hands of the judges and their understanding of the set rules by the organizers. Once the judges have made their decision, the event moves on. Any outside protest should not prohibit the event from continuing on, but should be submitted to the organizing body after the event so that a situation like this will not happen again. This was an unfortunate situation that punished all involved. I'm sure Big Dawg will address the situation and be better prepared for future events.

[Wish]

My daughter's high school makes us sign a document saying we are not allowed to communicate with the coaching staff or judges/reffs for 24hrs...period. I believe that is a FL high shcool athletics rule. That's an easy rule that would have stopped most of this.

[Ralph Lee]

well said rossi