More than just Stacked

[Horton]

For a skier at my level I think my stack is about normal. I typically run 38 about 1 in 5 tries or 1 in 20 tries depending on how things are going. The below image is a little embarrassing. I am not going to ever get down 39 like this.

http://www.ballofspray.com/images/warp-4.JPG

 

There are a lot of differences between my skiing and the guys that crush 39. I think I understand most of my faults. (There are plenty of faults in my skiing => let’s not list them all.) The one thing I cannot wrap my head around is how to get my mass that extra bit forward at the wakes. The guys at the next level are not just stacked but are also forward. Some are WAY FORWARD at the wakes.

 

I swear I will ban the first “Capt. Obvious” who says to “just bend my front ankles forward”. If was that easy I would not be asking.

 

When I try to simply move forward i feel awkward, weak and vulnerable. Vulnerable in a freaking scary way as if I feel I am going to collapse forward. Clearly I feel safe in my current stance but I do not think it is efficient. I know if I straighten my back leg more my hips will move forward. In the above image I see myself not doing what I preach but I expect the guys that crush 39 are doing more than that or something else.

 

I am tempted to revive Advanced Topics for this subject. Instead I am going to just ask that we stay on topic.

 

[jayski]

What happens @ the wake is a direct result of what happens @ the buoy...(before, through and exiting), this pic just shows the outcome of an earlier error

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Try counterclockwise rotation of your core. Push right hip forward and left shoulder back so your shoulders are facing the boat. You need to be more even and balanced. In that pic 90% of the load is on your right shoulder.

[Wish]

Bruce, I have tried that to some extent and load is more even but the off side load remains, in my case, on the left arm. Is it not the case that off side through the wakes the shoulders will remain more closed off. I hear what John is saying and agree with the uncomfortable feeling of just pushing ski out in front of me. Looking back at videos of myself (Water Ski Movie thread) the ski is not that far in front of me. I see someone like Marc Shaw as a skier that keeps his ski way out in front. So back to my questions of accomplishing the counter on the off side and the increased difficulty in doing so.

 

 

 

[A_B]

@Horton‌ sent you an email.

 

[mwetskier]

@Horton -i dont pretend to even have a clue what -39 feels like but i do know if you keep doing what you did you will keep getting what you got. chris rossi probably misses -39 so rarely he doesn't remember what it feels like and hes also written more about slalom technique than any other pro out there. this article from 2 yrs ago might contain a gem or 2 that can help you. btw i find i have to read his articles several times over to really get a handle on every little detail of what hes saying -

http://www.slalomguru.com/articles.php?article=connection

[jimbrake]

@Horton - straight back leg? (...I fear my time here may be coming to an abrupt end).

 

But seriously, I think a good deal of anyone's ability to be in a strong, safe, and effective stack coming into and across the centerline is a function of how well they began their acceleration . Also, the differences between what is strong, safe, and effective; strong, safe, and not so effective, and strong, sketchy and ineffective are subtle in execution and feel. If you let your ski, and more importantly your feet, pivot too quickly ahead of your mass at the finish of a turn, your acceleration will be delayed. Delay bad. Very bad. The slower you are to accelerate, the more load there will be and the worse your line will be across the centerline and outbound. That is where the "scary" part in your forward position comes from. In worst cases, the scary position turns into the dreaded OTF. The better you can come back to the handle with your mass traveling with or even ahead of your feet, the sooner and more effective your acceleration will be and the forward position into the wake is amazingly easy, safe, and controllable.

 

All this from a guy that struggles at 35. I can do this thing I'm describing so well, but so inconsistently. I'm battling 30 years of ingrained rip, grip, and fly/flail. I can absolutely crush it on my offside and it's incredible when I get it right - onside I have the toughest time staying with my feet and ski. I'm working hard to fix it.

[slow]

Focus on trailing arm pressure. My weight moves forward without being bent over. But not sure why.

[gator1]

@Horton‌: this is the question I was trying to get answered when we got into the straight back leg thing awhile back. And I got my Panda. Now you sound as frustrated as I was/am. I can move my weight over my foot and get the ski parallel to the water, but I'm terrified as I do it. And the terror is well justified by what happens at the wakes if I overcome prudence and stand on it through the wakes.

 

But I agree with you 100%, there is a common thread amongst all the videos of the studs and studdettes, and that is they somehow have more of the ski working for them by being more in the water.

 

I've spent this summer trying a bunch of theories, with no joy. And quite a bit of pain.

 

My only guess now is its one of two things: a) they are just so much better than me I'll never get it. b) it is not weighting, it is a combination of weighting and timing of angle.

 

Third set of the weekend last Sunday I had retired and was listing all my shit on ski-it-again. Calmed down and tried one more set with b). Seemed like maybe a glimmer of hope. But not enough to claim any insight.

 

So, I hope you get an answer to this. It would be the answer for a lot of serious guys stuck at the 38s.

 

 

[DefectiveDave]

I don't think I have any room to talk about the more technical aspects of skiing, but I've heard many people say they don't feel comfortable when they get out in front of the ski, or they're afraid they're going to go OTF. Maybe we need to get out of our comfort zones and really get in front of the ski?

 

Looking at @Horton's photo he looks like he has a really strong body position, but the tail of the ski is dug way in. I'd bet he could move much further forward on the ski without any risk of going OTF, but he'll still likely feel as though he's going OTF long before it is a realistic possibility.

 

Maybe the flight reflex is kicking in and tricking us into keeping our COM back at the hookup? Maybe the trick is pushing the boundaries of our comfort zone and getting closer to the edge (in this case of going OTF). Sure it will be scary as hell at first (especially at the speeds you shortline skiers are getting across course), but you would quickly extend your comfort zone.

[Horton]

I framed this around my skiing but I was really trying to start a conversation about getting more forward than just basic stack.

 

The most elite skiers in the world are much further forward then most of us realize.

[Razorskier1]

This may sound opposite of what you are asking. Push your feet further forward as if to advance the ski through the wakes. Pressure stays on the front foot. Looking at the picture I'd say that in a perfect stack your front foot would be under the line at that point. Counterintuitively, I believe this will move your COM forward rather than moving your shoulders forward.

[Chef23]

@Horton‌ can you find a picture that shows the stack you are talking about?

[jimbrake]

 

Stop the action at each centerline. I don't know how to grab frames to show only those.

[Chris Rossi]

@Horton can you post a picture of you right behind the boat from the set the first pic was taken? Was that pic from a pylon mount or a passenger? Need pylon mount photo. Your stack looks good. To me it looks like your upper body is slightly ahead of the rope but it may just be the angle of the pic. If so, this would put your feet slightly behind where you would like them. When I look at this, I see a guy who should be running 39. Just saying.....

[SkiJay]

 

@Horton

To my eye, moving your mass any further forward at this point might get dicey.

http://www.ballofspray.com/images/warp-4.JPG

 

Comparables:

 

 

[matthewbrown]

yeah you can't tell anything really from a snapshot. need to see the movement in slow mo....and, the two examples of terry and parrish are not what you want to be doing...just because they are pros does not mean every still frame example of them will be exemplary.

[gregy]

@horton good subject, one I've thought about a lot over the last few years. My theory and I'm not a very good skier so take it for what it is. Like Than I have to compensate my lack of athletic ability with my engineering mind.

 

I've heard about this with the west coast style etc for a long time and strived to ski this way with some success from time to time. What I've decided is not just forward but COM forward. COM forward is the key thing. I can put 90% of my weight in the front foot however if my hips are back I'm still plowing water. You can have your COM (hips) forward and still have your shoulders back (which will make you wake crossing full less frantic).

 

All forces act through a body's COM, that's basic physics, what I've found is there is a very fine line between what I believed was a good stack and a stack with COM forward. This can be demonstrated on dry land using a handle with 10 ft or so of rope. Get in a good balanced stack with a decent lean/load. You move your hips back just a little your going to fall back. Now try moving your hips forward (staighten rear leg and/or thrust pelvic forward) and try to keep you shoulders at the same position. What I found was with just an inch or 2 of movement of my COM my body wants to shot forward and If I step forward while keeping my COM forward I'll continue to go faster with no effort. When I can get this sking my passes become unbelievable easy.

 

I was told by some very good coaches things like put more weight on my front foot, get more forward on the ski, etc. but nothing every worked until I understood through dry land training what was going on.

 

Now another log in the fire. What about moving the ski in front of you as you come into the wake? You hear about this alot. What's the timing on this?

[SkiJay]

I'm sorry @matthewbrown (whom I admire greatly), but I think saying you can't tell "anything" from a snapshot is a bit dismissive. Yes video is better, but I chose three of the best skiers on earth who ski with three different styles, all at pretty much the same place in their on-side cuts, and they're all at 38 off. The pictures may or may not be of their most exemplary work, but they're pretty representative of the same point in time John is exploring, so I think it's fair that I've thrown them out there for reference points in this very interesting discussion.

[MarcusBrown]

 

 

2 Pictures of Nate at 41 off.

 

the first is him cutting 2 to 3. He is basically at centerline, but you see how much his COM is still leading his feet. Also, notice how little lean he has for what you'd expect you'd need to run 41 off.

 

2nd pic is him pulling out for the gates. Again, notice how much COM shift he has, in the direction of desired travel.

 

This is the fundamental reason Nate is the best. He moves is COM better than anyone else. @gregy is right though, dry land is one of the only ways to really "feel" the movement....due to the lack of good on water drills in water skiing. However, the statement "I can put 90% of my weight in the front foot however if my hips are back I'm still plowing water." is not valid. Not to get too deep, but the physics dictates that your ski doesn't care what you're body position is.....all it knows is where your COM is in relation to it. If you have 90% of weight on front foot....it doesn't matter if your ass is back and your chest over the tip, or if your hips are up and stacked....the ski will react exactly the same. HOWEVER, what body position does change, is the skiers ability to handle the compressive force from the ski and the tension force from the boat.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

Here's the simple truth, maybe I can find time to go deeper later:

 

The best time to accelerate is from the Apex of the turn (widest point), until centerline. Waste time poppin' wheelies or overturning and getting pulled out....and you've wasted acceleration credits (and therefore speed....which means no angle). That's part of the reason we can run our easier passes earlier....because the longer the line or the slower the boat speed, the easier it is to execute a nice carve around the buoy....which means we get more time to accelerate.

 

The best way to accelerate is to move your COM forward....balancing the amount of COM shift ahead, with the appropriate amount of lean away from the boat.

 

*Too much lean away from the boat => Reduces the ability to lead with the COM, because the added ski roll results in higher rope load, which increases the drag on the ski, which makes you feel uneasy about shifting anything forward except for your ski. Result is less cross course direction than desired.

 

The best way to move COM forward, is to Stack your body properly. Now everyone is going to be different, based on body type, mobility of joints...etc. Some people WILL NOT be able to simply get into a perfect stack....maybe their hips are too tight, or their ankles or boots are too stiff. Or maybe their feet are too far about. Million reasons...but those skiers out there who cannot properly stack, yet still get it done, have learned how to move their COM forward without the perfect stack....and without stacking through the wakes. (Dave Miller is a great example)

 

@wish and @gregy if the ski moves in front of you, you are slow. If you want to hit the breaks into the wakes, move your ski in front of you. *Thats also a great way to let your feet move outbound too soon, and get separated from the handle before getting through the second wake. Again, look at Nate above.....that's 41 off where the Centripetal Force from the Rope at Centerline is much much higher than at 32,35,38 off....and he's still able to lead with COM.

 

Thats the secret. But really its not a secret....we started this Conversation 16 years ago...just sometime bad info has clouded the message or derailed the train from time to time.

 

Glad to see the evolution in slalom theory since then....most people out there are understanding it.

 

Now....how the eff do you actually Stack?!!! @Horton maybe you need to make a trip up here to the Ridge soon. We could get a lot more done in person.

 

P.S. Anyone/Everyone is invited.

 

MB

 

 

[gator1]

@Than_Bogan‌ I think the italicized para above answers your post on "too much roll angle". Maybe I wasn't talking through my hat.

 

Loved the comments on foot weighting/ski attitude/ass dragging.

 

And, "...centripetal force".

 

Ahhhhh. Physics and logic. What a wonderful post.

[gator1]

That shot of Nate at the wakes, (or one just like it) has haunted me for 2 years. I can get in that position, but the aftermath is an OTF.

 

Here's my latest theory: He has the ski almost perpendicular to the rope. When the ski hits the wake, and decelerates, he has to deal with the step function deceleration's affect on his COM. BUT.....since he is travelling perp to the rope, when the ski decelerates there is almost NO added step function of load from the rope.

 

On the other hand, when I get up on the front foot, I am lucky to get the ski 45 degrees to the wake. When I hit the wake not only do I have to deal with the deceleration affect on my COM, I ALSO have to deal with an impulse load on the rope, because my ski is slowing down opposite direction of the rope's force vector (45 degrees to direction of ski, so I get hit with cos45 of the load spike).

 

Bottom line, the more angle you have when you hit the wake, the less the rope will be trying to drag your ass up over the ski and OTF. So the more angle you have, the farther you can be up on the ski without going OTF, Chicken and egg. Figuratively and descriptively.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton, the difference between skijay's #1 and #2 pics is the key. Six inches makes all the difference in the world! (yes in skiing too, just to get that out of the way). TW is stacked AND he's getting after it. You are 0 for 2 in comparison.

 

Marcus, good input as usual. Just get a haircut!

[matthewbrown]

@skijay agreed with the over generalization statement i made about not being able to tell anything from a snapshot, however as @chrisrossi was saying earlier, sometimes the photo is from centerline and sometimes it's from passenger side so viewpoint is tough. That being said, @Bruce_butterfield I will argue with you that terry winter is not in the best of position. He has too much load and his hips are back. He's going to come too hard to the inside through the edge change and lose valuable angle. Wont hurt him at 38 but wont get him anywhere at 41. This is something he has gotten much better at over the last few years since this video was taken, hence the consistent mid to deep 41 scores. What I will agree on with Bruce is that Horton has too much load and strain on the right shoulder. Hips need to be higher and mass more forward, aka the Nate Smith photos.

[bhs]

@MarcusBrown‌ have you shown us a video of a dry land drill moving COM forward? If not you need to show us one.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Matt, agree TW isn't in perfect position, but night and day difference between him and Horton. Pics of perfect position are really hard to find:)

[matthewbrown]

@bruce_butterfield at least @horton has cool goggles

[Horton]

Photos @‌AB sent speak for them selves

 

 

 

[Horton]

@jayski‌ if you saw my on side turn you would know there is a lot of wisdom in what you said at the top of this thread. We would need another thread to address that mess but I think I understand how to fix it.

 

Pictures of TW should be banned. That image you posted is radical strange. We should marvel but I do not see the lesson.

 

CP on the other hand I sort of understand & I want to ski like.

 

@Bruce_Butterfield I hear you but am frankly conflicted if that is really the right way to go. 1/2 the top coaches seem to say open your hips and the the other half say the opposite.

 

@jimbrake‌ I do dig a hole at my on side finish. I am working on that. I would be stoked if that solved part of this.

 

As for the Badal video I consider him to be a wacky example of fantastic talent. Mapple taught him to ski. No one else skis like that. He does a lot right but it is odd.

 

@slow I have been down that road. It works on the dock and 22- 28 off skiers but I will be damned if it ever did anything but waste boat gas.

 

@Razorskier1 I totally agree that I do not want my shoulders much further forward. I am not sure about pushing the ski forward at the wakes. That is what everyone thought years ago but look at Regina above.

 

@‌Gator1 I am just looking for the truth.

 

 

[Horton]

@Chris Rossi‌ I do not have the image as requested. I looked around and found some images I feel better about and some I really do not want to post.

 

I assume you like these two. Chances are it is only 32 off or maybe 35. I can fake it good with more rope.

@jimbrake‌ see my sexy back leg?

 

I think this is my typical on side stance. Not bad but not that extra bit

 

Here is a semi typical Off Side stance that makes me want to take up ping pong

 

 

 

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown‌ that is good stuff & trip to the Ridge is so overdue.

 

Funny that you talk about how your ski does not care what your position is. I think of David Miller and TGAS. Both have a COM that is pretty far forward but they get there in an unusual way.

 

When to accelerate? We think we want to wait to get on the line. We see Smith stay off the line until the white water but we really want as much speed and as little load as possible. Is this a conflict of ideas? I mean we know we do not want to crank off a ton of angle at the ball line... right?

 

 

[Horton]

As I stated above I am more looking for a better understanding than a quick fix to my skiing.

 

Yoda* was telling me the other day that he thinks only about 1/2 of the pro skiers in the world really understand how to get forward through the wakes.

 

 

*Yoda is a never to be named source for info from the elite ranks and knowledge.

[Razorskier1]

Totally agree with MB on level of lean/load. For me I think of ZO skiing as requiring me to do a lot less than I did when we skied PP and I was a less knowledgeable skier. You'd be surpriised how little load and lean it takes to generate speed and width.

[ForrestGump]

We've always talked about Nate not picking up the rope until closer to the white water. But obviously, that's a result of other things he's doing. That is probably a good discussion.

[Razorskier1]

I'm definitely taking up Ping-Pong . . . or shuffle board.

[Chef23]

This thread scares me a little. That picture of Nate looks like a recipe for me to go out the front.

[Than_Bogan]

@Chef23 A little? If that's what it takes to run -41, then my athletic limitations are no longer the only reason I will never do so!

[A_B]

When I used to ski a lot with my friend who has skied in several Big Dogs, and has gotten through 39 into 41, one of the key things I was watching while he skied was tip pressure. I think I have posted about this before, so I don't want to be redundant, but if he had the tip down going into the wakes, he would have a good shot at 39, if he didn't have the tip down, he struggled to get width. It is all about leverage. I guess if you have a deeper fin and can hold it, you may not need as much ski in the water for leverage, but for every skier, there is an optimum setup. Sitting back or having tip up through the wakes is usually not a win win scenario.

 

Regarding @Horton‌, I have always thought he is very solid, however, I think he is a bit compressed (he lives in Cali), and my preference would be for him to push his butt up and chest out to gain a little more oomph behind the boat. This would cast him out earlier and take some of the scrappiness out of his passes. That is just my opinion, so throw it out for others to disseminate.

 

I think of Ringo Starr in the Caveman movie where he straightens up the other cavemen and they walk upright....

[Horton]

@ab believe it or not, I strive to be less compressed. When I am narrow the first thing I wonder is if I am squaty (is that a real word)

[walleye]

@Horton watch any of the top 5 Girls 2 & 3 chest up @ab is talking about.

[gregy]

There is an issue of perspective as far as being forward when viewed from the boat. I set in the boat and watched KC Wilson damn near run 41off, at 39 and 41 that was the most angle I've every personally seen anybody get. But I watch the Wilson bros minute Monday with KC stroking 39 off with a head cam. Its pretty obvious he far from perpendicular to the wakes. You look at Gator1 28off from 100ft and you can see it a straight shot out of the buoy at a line that is less than 45 degrees.

 

So my point is if you in a COM forward position, the forward lean seen from the boat (at the wakes) is exaggerated due to angle to the wake and lean away from the boat. If you want a visual perspective for this take a couple of sticks and make a T out of them. Look at a lean away perpendicular from your line of sight then at a 45 degree angle to your line of sight with same lean. You see what I'm talking about.

 

We may not be in as bad of OTF position as we think we are, I don't know I've definitely felt that feeling of going OTF hitting the wakes.

 

From what I've seen on dry land training is that just a very small hips movement can get your COM in front of you along with the body positioning that MB is talking about that allows "skiers ability to handle the compressive force from the ski and the tension force from the boat". That combination is the key to skiing efficiently and not having the OTF feel. Its what I've been working for couple of years, now if I can just stay healthy long enough to make some progress.

[Razorskier1]

This is so hard because what we feel while skiing isn't what we look like on video.

[acmx]

Perception vs Reality has got to be one of the most difficult aspects of this sport. I video every set and usually accomplish about fifty percent of what I thought I did on the water. Great thread @Horton , I hope there will be answers instead of theory as my style looks similar to yours, especially the digging a hole at onside turn!

[A_B]

I have a theory about digging a hole at the onside turn, or rather how not to. Even when running late and hot, a skier needs to push their right hip forward (RFF) and pull the left shoulder back, which is 180 degrees opposite of what instinct tells us. Our instinct is to jump on the front of the ski, go into the turn with chest pointed down so we can "crank it", and what happens is that the ski tip digs in, stops, and then crumples the skier when the boat takes up the advance the skier made into the buoy.

 

The other hole is when you sit back and the ski basically just augers in from the back, and the tip pops up, then has to come back down and establish some sort of angle out of the turn. Usually resulting in slack hit, getting jerked out of a stacked position, then short at the next buoy. Going into the turn with inside hip up and countered will help keep balanced in those situations as well.

 

Just my random thoughts...

[Horton]

@ab extra shoulder counter rotation means you are moving around extra. I think you want to move forward ASAP and moderate your upper body movement. Most skiers have plenty of counter into on side already.

[A_B]

I'd have to see it. Maybe I am just an old style skier, but if I don't think about pulling my shoulder back going into the turns, I have a tendency to not do it. When I am rushed it is multiplied.

[swerveit]

I always relate it to a kid on a swing (me) and what point do I shift my COM and in what direction?

go try it, IMO it translates to skiing perfectly and gives you a good understanding of physics, momentum and energy transfer.

 

release the inner child and get on a swing!

 

- at the highest point if you try to engage your legs/COM to get moving again, you stall and loose rhythm, (getting on the handle to quickly)

- don't move COM or have it in the wrong place/time at the apex you don't have enough energy to go upward (not enough whip to get up on the boat end up pulling long)

 

[Deep11]

 

This is a really interesting thread and it would be a pity if it runs out now so here goes....

 

(I suspect that Horton has a few of these types of questions in reserve to keep us ski geeks interested)

 

The original question from Horton was how to move his centre of mass (COM) forward in order to help him achieve 39's.

It seems that while everyone is agreed that the balance of angle / com/ load / speed / acceleration etc is what separates the good from the bad and ugly, the advice to Horton has come round to his "stack" position rather than just focusing on COM.

I have taken a few screen shots of pros running 39 at roughly the same spot that Hortons snapshot is taken. What I see is that, while the Pros have what I would term an "indestructible" position (meaning that whatever else happens - increased pull from the boat, the wake etc - they will still be in control and gain speed and angle), Hortons position is on the limit. Any increased load from the boat or hit from the wake, looks like it would result in more "compression". It's unlikely to be much as he's really strong in this position (it's his default), but any "give" means that the power from the boat is being dispelled before it reaches the ski. As the line gets shorter this becomes less manageable and you can't afford the time to fix the compromises anyway.

I would tentatively suggest therefore that moving the COM forward is probably not the main issue (the pics of Andy and Rossi don't show any more forward lean than Hortons) but gaining a more "controlled" stack position that, as things get more on the edge, generates speed and cross course angle rather than load and compression.

Establishing that, a question I have about this (which probably applies to all levels) is how in the world do you approach changing a default stack position that has been refined over many years? Is it predictably possible?

We have skiers with us who have been skiing and competing for over 20yrs and, whilst always working on stuff, still have the basic compromises in their stack. It may of course be as Marcus says that they are simply not physically able to achieve the position required but I would suggest that if you can do it on land then it should be possible on the water.

My personal preference is to get away from the course and video every set, making and recording all the changes you try until you start to see a difference. I think you also need a reference point of video/pictures of a skier you think you want to ski like. As has been said before what you feel and what's actually happening are generally very different.

 

Where I may now overstep my pay grade is suggesting that from Hortons photo his goal may be to find a stack position that allows him to lift his right shoulder whilst keeping the right arm locked and loaded. This would have the effect of a more upright "taller on the ski" "indestructible" position like Andy and Rossi. Clearly would depend on the turn, hook up, tight line yadayadayada.......

 

Hope this thread continues.......:)

[SkiJay]

I can't help but notice that the worst "looking" stack here is by the world's current top skier. "More Than Just Stacked" is a good title.

[Horton]

@jayski‌ one image of one wake crossing does not mean anything. He may have hit a duck a second before that image.