Hard shell good or bad?

[NickD]

I am looking to "upgrade" to hard shell bindings. I ride a radar vapor 67 with profile double boot. My current bindings are starting to wear out and I have been thinking of going the hard shell route. I have been looking at the reflex double and was wondering if anyone has had any good or bad experiences with this?

[Than_Bogan]

So wow am I a broken record this week but everyone keeps asking the same question!

 

Search the forum for OB4.

[Waternut]

Upgrade is all in what you want. There is no right or wrong.

 

I kinda liked double boots but honestly feel like I liked the idea of double boots more than actually skiing with them so didn't go double Reflex. I really like my Reflex front boot but I think most will say to go with a RTP or the R-style if you're looking for a little more than a RTP. I went with the Radar RTP and didn't have any issues with support or comfort coming off of double hardshell boots.

[BraceMaker]

To me it is good.

 

But I would never recommend it to someone who doesn't regularly inspect their equipment... With any of the systems, when you introduce mechanical variables there is a very defined point where failure occurs to the mechanical bits.

 

It used to be an overlay tore, and if you were prepared enough to have some zipties around you could make it through the weekend. When your release snaps, or a buckle stops clicking shut a hardshell is done unless you have a variety of parts and tools - also many of the mechanical parts can fail causing you to fall, I've seen folks ski whole seasons with torn out overlays.

 

You currently have threads about setting the OB4, about a reflex release with an oblonged hole, and if you dig you can certainly find prerelease threads for 3M tape, and if you want I can discuss setting pin gaps on FM and such - all of these things need to be regularly looked at if you like to ski.

[rockdog]

Maybe you should try double vapor?

[Chuck_Dickey]

Reflex front and R-style rear works great for me. Tried Powershells, Strada's, EXO Pro's. Feel the safest and best performance is the Reflex. I like the heel lifting I can do with the R-style rear.

 

Have not tried the OB4 system but they look like a pretty good design.

[NickD]

Is the Reflex designed to release in a fall like the OB4? Or will it stay attached like normal rubber bindings?

[Than_Bogan]

Reflex is designed to release, yes. But I wouldn't then say "like the OB4." The OB4 system can release in waaay more directions.

[NickD]

@than_Bogan you seem to be against the reflex bindings. Any reason why or do you just prefer the the OB4?

[MattP]

@NickD‌ I have skied on both the OB4 & Reflex. If you would like my comparison let me know.

[NickD]

@mattp Yes, your comparison would be very much appreciated!

[MrJones]

Reflex with R style rear for about 4 years now. No complaints and cannot see changing for any reason. The OB4 may be great, I just have no interest in changing. That is my best testimony for the Reflex as well.

[BRY]

@NickD In regards to dual hardshells, most dual systems do not let the rear heel come up. Exception to this is the Goode PowerShells which have a mechanism to allow the rear heel to rise (works quite well). I tried some dual FM's that did not work for me for this reason, held heel down. Hence most top skiers now seem to be on Goode, front hard shell with RTP/rubber or dual rubber. I personally do not like RTP's as I personnally seem to have issues with the back foot coming out (rarely, but nasty when crossing wakes at shortline).

I am currently on Reflex with R-rear. Works really well for me, no pre-releases but comes off amazingly easy when needed. Did have a rear Wiley's for a while but tried the R-style rear due to cramping with the Wiley. I found with the R-style rear it was much easier to get and keep my hips forward.

[Than_Bogan]

Not quite fair to say I'm "against" the Reflex. Last year, it's what I would have recommended to anybody running rear toe, and would have been on my "worth considering" list for dual-shell users.

 

But I think OB4 has leapfrogged it. The ability to release in essentially every possible direction is a big deal, and quite honestly I think it obsoletes the Reflex release system*. I'll leave it to @MattP to provide more details since he has skied both.

 

*You can, of course, mount a Reflex boot to an OB4 release system. That's exactly what I'd do if I had been on Reflex. I'm pretty sure that's what Matt did, actually.

[MattP]

@NickD‌ Before I made the switch to the OB4 I rode Reflex and I trusted it for the past 4 years and at the time was the safest system out there that provided releasability and hardshell control. I promoted that product for skiers when I was on it. One issue I always had with it was the inability for the binding to release in a rotational fall. I injured my ankle last season in a fall where there was no pull from the heal which was the release point for that system. I looked at all the systems on the market and finally settled on the OB4. The OB4 System’s style of release in my opinion is the safest at this time for RTP skiers because it can release in out-the-front, out-the-back, rotationally or any combination there of in a fall. Reflex only releases OTF consistently.

 

One of the best features of the OB4 is the ability to use your current hard-shells or mount any kind of shells you desire. I was able to mount the shell I have been using for the past 4 years right onto the OB4 binding plate in a matter of a few minutes with the hardware provided from the factory. I will be moving to the OB4 hardshell in the coming months.

 

I also shattered 2 releases from reflex while skiing..

 

Anything else you would like for me to address any other aspects of the two systems?

 

You can read my full review here

[NickD]

@MrJones‌ what kind of support do you get on your rear foot with the R-Style? Is it more supportive like a double boot or is it more loose like a toe plate?

[Chuck_Dickey]

@NickD‌

I have the R-Style and feel it allows me to raise my heel but also feels much more secure than an RTP. There are two buckles on the shell which can be pretty tight to hold your forefoot in place but in a fall, your heel comes out without a problem.

[BlueSki]

Usually comes out without a problem. I am looking forward to surgery on my ankle due to coming out of the R-style with a problem. Yay, R-style.

[Chuck_Dickey]

@BlueSki‌

 

Sorry to hear that, what happened that you didn't eject from the Rear?

[packski]

I am kind of on the fence with the hardshell being an advantage over soft boots. Maybe they are safer, but with Mapple skis and other ski companies concentrating on torsional flex, it does seen counter-intuitive to have a firm boot while the ski flexes sideways.

[BlueSki]

@Chuck_Dickey‌, I went forward out of a turn and the heel of the Reflex liner stuck for a second too long. My foot came out, but not before tearing ligaments and dislocating a tendon. I was afraid for my achilles at first, it received a pretty good pull, but fortunately it remained intact. When I started with the Reflex I used my old HO EXO liner to aid in the transition. That one passed the dock test well enough. I tried the Reflex liner and that one just stuck in the R-style a bit too well. I am on an OB4 now (I have done a little skiing to soothe the pain of a tarnished summer) and am very pleased, but my season is basically done.

[jimski]

Has any one used the Goode power shells on there vapor

[londonskier]

@jimski Yes I use goode PS5's on a Vapor. No problems - been on them for 3 years. But I feel you can get your weight more forward with a RTP. As for release, nothing is perfect, but usually its ok. If you are used to double boots - no problem. Really comfy too. Just follow the guide by @scottchipman on the amount of dual lock you need. My rear foot got injured some years ago so I went to the PS system which for me is pain free. I don't know if there are still fans of PS, but I am. Alternatively there are loads of people using Reflex front and a regular rubber (but not too tight) rear.

 

[adkh2oskier]

I ski w Old tech Rubber w Toe slip, have for years. Seems to me it's a personal preference. But I have noticed that almost all the broken/messed up ankles and knees seem to come from guys riding on double hard shells. More often than not it seems to be front foot injuries from hitting a buoy and the ski stops dead and forces compression of front ankle doing the damage. Just an observation.

[Steven_Haines]

I ski with a similar release to the Radar binding, although mine are in a hard shell version (mimics Radar) if they're adjusted correctly, they're about as safe(Radar style release) as you can get as far as I can tell. I haven't seen the OB4 system yet, that maybe be the best? The jury is still out, but they sure look to be designed well!

[Jim5]

I just recently transitioned from RTP to R-style. I have the buckles on last notch, so clipped in as loosely as possible. Had no problem 1) moving my heal while skiing, 2) coming out of it on different falls. Basically, when strapped on loosely, it feels like a RTP with a heal-cup.

[MrJones]

To be really honest... I don't think it matters. There are excellent skiers on rubber, semi-hardshell, and hardshell. From a performance standpoint I don't think there is an "upgrade". If you feel more safe in one vs. the other is a different story.

[Chef23]

@adkh2oskier‌ there are issues of ankle/achillies on rear toes as well as double boots. Even with properly adjusted bindings people get hurt sometimes. A friend of ours tore his achillies on a rubber front with a RTP and it was a front binding he had come out of lots of times. Sometimes shit just happens.