Greatest Misconceptions and Misunderstandings & why

[JAS]

Anyone want to give “pull” a definition. Seems like skier body is nothing more than an energy transfer link. How does one efficiently pull harder?

My answer would be to optimize ratio: Energy Available/Energy wasted. (Largest # wins)

-rigid body

-pull through center or mass

-enough forward lean to maintain optimal pitch of ski

-enough edge angle to minimize side slide

-yaw that matches cross course angle allowed by cross course speed

 

For each of us the answer probably is different ??

[A_B]

Horton should probably ban “pull” from being used on this forum.

 

It’s lean and resist. How to do both is the art that we all must find an athletic way to accomplish.

 

Leaning typically is not accomplished well by starting with your head or upper body and usually works better when the hips start the process with properly aligned body. But, I bet we all know skiers that run a lot of passes by dropping their head toward the water and the body looks like it is following their Noggin around the whole pass. Will that achieve great results? Probably not, but it sure looks like their having fun, and boy is it hard to get them to stop doing it. Almost like smoking or eating sugar.

 

Resisting properly is best when everything is in alignment and the load is transferred through the shoulders down the core of the body to the ski. Some people have straighter legs than others but the location of the handle, like lifting any heavy object should be kept close to the body to absorb the load through your core. Think how you wouldn’t pickup and hold a 150 pound box within your arms straight out in front of you, although we all know some gorillas that can do that, but that is not efficiently using your core power. The other concept to think about is a tug of war match. You wouldn’t lean against the line bent over, or with your body angled off to one side. Everything is in alignment.

 

The tricky part in skiing in a lean position is that you must not do this all at once and you need tip pressure in the proper amount to get the ski to engage in an ever increasing amount until you enter the wakes which all reeuires increased resistance. This is when we find the “fall forward”’or “lean forward”’comments that seem to contradict just leaning away from the boat and resist. While all this is going on in your brain cpu, the feeling of an eminent yard sale out the front must be quenched, hence you hear someone from the boat yelling at you to keep your eyes level to the waterline and look across the wake at the next buoy and for the love of God, don’t look down at the wake, or surely that’s where you will end up.

 

I’m sure some Engineers or Quantum Physic types will take exception to the above descriptions, but that is how this almost 60-year old financial guy feels about it.

 

 

[Horton]

Yeah let's just all agree that the term "pull" is problematic but almost everybody uses it. I think we can all agree that if you're actually exerting bicep strength and bending your elbows during acceleration phase it's a super bad thing. We commonly say things like "pull too long" when we should say maybe "lean too long".

 

We all have enough trouble agreeing on fundamental concepts. As long as we all understand each other can we not go down the rabbit hole of terminology. I tried to start a lexicon page a couple of months ago and nobody was interested so I don't even care anymore. If you really want to argue about terminology let's talk about "smear".

 

I should likely give myself a Panda for the previous sentence

[ALPJr]

In New England we say Schmeara

[A_B]

@Gloersen I would be fine with the video if he would be saying LEAN!

 

Totally agree with @Horton in feeling pull on biceps that bent arms make skiing a bad thing. (Sung to Bon Jovi).

 

I have told skiers to try to ski the whole pass with arms straight and the only way they can get the handle into their hip is to lean away. It has had some success breaking these arm skiers from bad habits.

 

But, I am sure there are some guys out there running 35 off with Popeye firearms and gorilla biceps that reel the rope in wherever they are.

[Brady]

Is it just me or are his hands opposite the way they should be? @A_B ??? You seem to be the resident old man, and you have been skiing since Moses parted the Red Sea...am I right?

[BraceMaker]

@Gloersen Würk!

[A_B]

@Brady - RFF LHT (Left Hand Top) and vice versa.

Yes I am old, but I look and act much younger than my age...

 

[BraceMaker]

As in left palm up

[A_B]

hold the handle out in front of you going straight up and down and the opposite hand of your foot forward is on top.

[BraceMaker]

Right so ok in vid

[jipster43]

I have all sorts of horrible habits and my tournament best is only 2@32' off, so who knows how applicable this is to all of you with a good stack, but when I skied with Terry Winter last August, he told me to think of the rope as a rubber band. Whatever energy you put into it before the wakes is going to be pulling you out of position after the wakes.

 

It seems like this concept still jibes with the idea of "lean and resist" as long as you maintain your initial lean angle and not fight for more. I suppose this probably goes without saying for many of you shorter line skiers, but I thought I would add the perspective of a duffer.

[Horton]

I have come to the conclusion that you may not really want the handle literally on your hip at centerline. : - )

 

More in a few days when I figure out how to explain it.

[Ed_Johnson]

@jipster43 ... Just to add to your perspective, something Andy Mapple told me years a go, when I was trying to understand Zero Off. He told me to keep in mind, what ever you do to ZO, it will return it. In other words, if you spike it hard, it will come back hard. If your slow and progressive, it responds the same way. I have found this to be totally true and backs up what Terry is telling you.

 

[Horton]

Bump from the archive

[VONMAN]

@Horton...Thanks for the Bump. Great topic, very informative glance at the past.

[Zman]

On 5/27/2018 at 7:49 PM, Horton said:

I have come to the conclusion that you may not really want the handle literally on your hip at centerline. : - )

 

More in a few days when I figure out how to explain it.

@Horton - have you figured out how to explain that yet? 

[twhisper]

@HortonExplain yourself🙂

I think it's important to decide what it is you're trying to do at centerline. Should centerline be your max load, or should it be the point where the edge change is taking place? As soon as the cutting edge pressure is being released from the ski there is going to be a greater separation between hip and handle. At a skier's easiest pass there is going to be an earlier release of the cutting edge pressure. At a skier's most difficult pass, especially during an off-side cut, there is probably going to be a later release of the ski's cutting edge pressure.

I think you're probably right that hip to handle is more of an idea that skiers should be striving for to achieve a stronger position because many skiers have way too much space there (similar to straight legs vs bent knees as a concept), but I can also tell you that my board shorts literally get worn on from my gloves.

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Its been almost 5 years and @Horton still hasn't figured out his "conclusion".  Hmmmm.

[JackQ]

@twhisper, The answer to your question, “Should centerline be your max load, or should it be the point where the edge change is taking place?” I believe the answer is both, at centerline or marginally before, you should have max load, and at the point start your edge change, utilizing the load to assist the movement to the inside edge.

Contrast on how difficult it would be to have a flat ski and then make the movement to the inside edge.  I conceptualize the movement as rolling the ski from one side to the other almost pushing the inside tip into the water during the process  

[Horton]

@twhisper @Bruce_Butterfield @Gloersen @Zman

I don't know WTF I was thinking when I made that post 5 years ago. Maybe I had been watching Sacha Descuns too much and had some strange ideas about his stance at centerline. Anyway it was a bad idea. 

[Horton]

1 hour ago, JackQ said:

Contrast on how difficult it would be to have a flat ski and then make the movement to the inside edge.  I conceptualize the movement as rolling the ski from one side to the other almost pushing the inside tip into the water during the process  

Interesting that you say the part above in bold. I my mind, the ski wants to flow out bound so if I act as if I am letting the ski go flat it will travel a wide path and roll in anyway. If I force it to the inside edge I will likely run a narrow path and move my mass to the inside prematurely.

[JackQ]

@HortonI may not have accurately described my thought.  I am referring to some skiers that have a flat ski with minimal to no load at the 1st wake, flat through centerline and then at or past the 2nd wake they struggle to get the ski on the inside edge as the are going straight with little to no load.  I always attempt but don’t always succeed, is to transition from the pulling edge, to the inside edge in one continuous motion, and to minimize the time between the tow. 

[Horton]

Bump - sorry for all the missing images.

[VONMAN]

Great info, second time reading it. Going back to Nate's great turns. Could his secret weapon be the length of his ski. When I started ski four decades ago the in thing to have a short ski for quick turns. If you were on a 65 or 66 inch ski that was the trick. Me being 200lbs+ needed a 67" ski or my turns would be hockey stops around the ball. When ever I would try a 66" ski I just couldn't carry the speed around the ball.

Look at Nate probably a great candidate for a 65" ski but his ski of choice is 67". Could it be the length has the extra volume to keep him moving/support to carry him around the ball?

So here I am on a 65" Denali large, having fun and enjoying it's great turns. This has been very informative keep it rolling.