Boys 3 - The progression from 34 to 36 mph

[gregy]

I like the idea of something like @elr is talking about would be great. I know its been discuss before. I really don't know why so many folks are so resistant to change. Like I said before, its time to start thinking outside the box.

 

I remember a video that was posted here a while back about golf dying and how resistant the traditionalist were to change and how others were trying to make it more attractive.

 

I couldn't find the complete video but it was: HBO Real Sports: The Future of Golf. There talking about holes that 1.5 ft in diameter, Soccer golf on the same courses as regular golf. Thinks that I would consider much more radical than allowing people to pick there own top speeds.

 

When Jack Nicklaus was asked about changes to bring more people in he said "what difference does it make if it introduces more people to the game" .

 

We can just keep saying "this is way we've always done" right into oblivion.

[Chef23]

@andjules I don't know if you have ever had a kid make the jump. It is a change and for some of the kids 36 can seem really fast. I have a kid that was a solid skier at 34 mph capable of running into 28 off (who has spent time with high level coaches) that got rag dolled at 36 mph and 22 off resulting in a concussion. I know the fall was much harder than it would have been at 34. I understand there are risks in the sport (he jumps as well). He has recovered and recently started skiing 36 mph. It did cost him half of what is a very short water ski season last summer.

 

I am not sure on where I fall on all of this. I do know that when he was recovering and getting his confidence back I would have preferred him to stay at 34 mph and be able to run down the rope. That option might have had him back for one or two tournaments at the end of the season. Since he could run 34/15 and 22 but was still a little gun shy at 36 we skipped tournaments at the end of the season.

 

I have said this before I think kids that can run say 32 off at 34 mph have no issues making the transition. Kids that are working through 15 off at 34 and even kids that can run 22 off have a more difficult time adjusting to the speed and can put themselves in worse positions that can lead to injuries.

[Than_Bogan]

@Chef23's experience makes sense to me, and makes me wonder about qualifying into it. Suppose once you run 34/-28 you then move into "B4" or whatever we choose to call it.

This does create two "skill-based" divisions (B3 vs. B4), which is sorta weird in a system that is otherwise entirely age-based, but if there's a serious problem with losing skiers, or there's a safety issue, then qualifying in seems to make a lot of sense.

 

Or maybe overlay this with @elr's idea: Keep it as one division with zero-based-scores, but instead of your choice of speed, your top speed is 34 until you run -28 in a tournament and thereafter it is 36. That sorta works out, because somewhere around that mark is where most would cross over into getting the same buoy count at 36.

 

It's arguably a minor tweak, but to me it feels like a lot less of a change vs. the current rules, because all top skiers are eventually forced to 36, as opposed to creating some incentive to ski at 34 forever. And it would only be near the boundary that we'd ever have to compare scores that came from different speeds: for the most part the 34 mph skiers would be scoring significantly fewer total buoys than the 36 mph skiers.

 

And this could apply in B3, M1, and M2. The "older" skiers around that skill level probably also benefit from learning short-line principles before taking on 36?

 

Huh, kinda liking this. I wonder what I've failed to consider!?

[Creeker]

Here my $0.015 worth.

 

I'm not much of a skier, though I've been working at it for a few years now. My son is the skier. He has done well in the sport for a being 1st generation skier. To the folks who have helped him, I cannot thank them enough.

 

Some background:

 

First tournament was at LM and he was in B2. We did not understand what "off" was and what a buoy score was. The support, acceptance, and encouragement by the pro's, fellow skiers, and others at the lake was amazing. By the end of the season, he was running -22 off at 34 MPH do to some great coaching. Did not go to states/regionals/nationals.

 

Next season, a PB at regionals, 4 at -35. Finished on the podium at Nationals in B2.

 

After nationals, graduated to B3 and 36 MPH. Thanks to all his coaches, he transitioned into 36 MPH well. -15 and -22 was completed before the winter rolled into the area.

 

Spring time came and by the end of first season in B3, he had a practice PB of 1 at -38 off and a tournament PB of 3 at -35. Went to states and regionals

 

The second season in B3 has just finished. A lot of work on technique, but something had changed. Took a while to figure it out... he had out grown his ski. A new ski toward the end of the season and -35 off was coming a long just fine, and a PB of 2 at -38.

 

Then a couple of weeks ago, a horrific crash on his warm up pass (36 MPH, -22). Out of commission for a while (concussion). No regionals or nationals

 

What has been noticed moving from 34 to 36 MPH? As my son states, he could get away with a bunch of technique issues at 34 MPH. At 36 MPH, the skiing techniques are critical, especially at the shorter line lengths. He loves skiing at 36 MPH, it has forced him to work on his technique.

 

One issue with skiing, is that there are not a lot of kids in the sport. One reason he stays in it is the help and coaching from all the adult skiers in the area. Skiing is hard. Skiing at 36 MPH is really hard (tried it once, did not go well). Without the coaching and help, the transition would have been much harder. We are extremely fortunate and thankful to have some many folks who have dedicated so much of their time and expertise to a new family.

 

Having watched this transition from 34 MPH to 36 MPH, I favor the idea of having a B3 and B3+ (Maybe its called B3 / B4)

 

B3 and B3+ are the same ages (15-18)

B3 is 34 MPH, B3+ is 36 MPH.

The skier (with parental approval) gets to chose the speed.

 

The reason for the 34 or 36 MPH for 15-18 year olds is the ability of the skier and the skier's access to coaching. Without access to good coaching, success in short line 36 MPH is difficult. I know my son would not be where he is without it. Coaching a 36 MPH skier is different than coaching a 34 MPH skier. Those that can teach a skier to ski 36 MPH short line are very special.

 

Another factor often overlooked in kids skiing 36 MPH and those learning to ski 36 MPH is the access to a good boat driver. As a person who is new to the sport, I had no idea how critical driving the boat is to a young person skiing at 36 MPH. As a new driver, I can say that it is much harder to drive the boat at 36 MPH with a 140 Lbs short line skier than it is to drive the boat with 34 MPH M4 skier running -38. Why? IMHO, the margin of error is much smaller with a B3 36 MPH skier. Also, a M4 -38 skier has had many years of good drivers and not so good drivers and has had to learn to adapt. A B3 skier has not had the same number of years to adjusted to different driving abilities. Again, we are extremely lucky to have some great skiers in the area who are also some of the best drivers around.

 

In short, IMHO, after B2, it should be optional as to which speed a skier wants to ski for the following reasons:

1. Not all skiers will have access to great ski lakes, great coaches, great drivers, great boats, etc.

2. Skiing at 34 MPH maybe considered safer

3. Skiers develop at different times, different ages, different rates

4. Learning to deal with bump at 36 MPH -15 and 36 -22 MPH passes can be quite the challenge.

 

 

[LeonL]

This really has not so much to do with the subject of this thread, but I support the suggestion from @elr. That sounds like a great idea. It restricts no one and gives a lot of flexibility without any scoring advantages/disadvantages. Great idea!

[Than_Bogan]

Here's another alternative that is kind of similar to the ski-34-until-you-qualify idea. For a handful of passes, you offer two options, where each one scores the same. For example, you might offer a choice for three of the passes (which in practice would really only be for two of them):

 

.

.

32mph

(34mph LL -- separate topic but can we drop this? Sheesh)

34/-15 or 36/LL (presumably no one would every choose the latter)

34/-22 or 36/-15

34/-28 or 36/-22

36/-28

36/-32

.

.

 

There are some other potential advantages of this approach:

- It handles the "day of qualifying" a lot more cleanly -- you just immediately go on to 36/-28.

- It allows people to follow a sequence that may be more beneficial for training, and still get credit for them, as opposed to 34/-22 counting as if it were 34/LL

- Many skiers would never ski 36/-15 which is kind of a hated pass.

- It could generalize easily to other divisions, offering the option of a slower speed for -22 and -28, but always eventually getting to -28 at max speed.

 

And it still has these advantages:

- Everyone who becomes good enough eventually goes to 36.

- We only need the same age-based divisions we already have; everyone could use the options above in B3/M1/M2

- Elite skiing is totally unaffected -- everybody there is starting at 36/-28 or shorter anyhow

 

The biggest disadvantages I see are: a) confusing the officials a little at a tournament, and b) my buddy Dave Allen would have to modify the scoring program!

 

But I'm starting to really like this! Thinking back to when I was a M2 skier, I probably would have done 34/-28 as my opener then on to 36/-28, except I got 18 more buoys for completing 36/-22 as my opener. Sure, I expected to run 36/-28 almost every time, but it still felt so risky to NOT take those 18 extra buoys right away.

[John Brooks]

I like what I see from @elr and @Than_Bogan . Seems like something like this might also be a good alternative for something like MastersMen as well, a possible way to ramp up the competition.

[schroed]

There are a number of threads going on in BOS that all relate to the same problem: we need to redo how people are grouped for competition. My solution for this would be to have three age groups (Boys, Men, and Senior Men), three ability groups within the age groups (1, 2, 3), and an open division. So, if your a young boy just starting out, you'd be in the Boys age group, ability group 1. Make that top speed 30 MPH. As the kid gets better he'd move up to ability group 2. Make that speed 34 MPH. Finally you could have ability group 3 go 36 MPH (for boys and men; perhaps not for senior men). If this setup was implemented you could ensure that boys that "aren't ready" to go 36 could stay in ability group 2 and go 34 MPH. I also think this setup would make it more competitive for everybody and be more fun.

[Mateo_Vargas]

@Schroed I like it as long as we aren't considered Senior Men.

[Deke]

OK, so if you want to think outside the box...

 

It might sound weird but what if divisions weren't set by age and gender at all? What if divisions were set by qualification instead, such as previous performances at line length and speed? Who cares what age you are, you would be placed in a division based on your previous performance.

 

Just a thought.

[ntx]

How do overall skiers fit into all this??

[MattL]

When I moved up to B3, I was not running 34 yet. Everyone was saying that 36 is so scary and they tell me about all of the horrible falls they've taken. I ran 34 very soon after I moved up to B3. Because I was running 34 most of the time, I started practicing 36. I was very scared to ski 36 the first time. 36 seems very fast compared to 34, however I feel like the difference in the wakes is the biggest difference. At 15 off, the wakes at 36 are non-existent. There is only "rough water". There still are wakes at 34 so this is a big difference for me. I have found that at 36 you are in the rooster tail at 22 off though. I have taken some "fun" falls, but have never taken a fall that actually hurt me. After I was getting deeper into 36, I got more comfortable with the speed and I was not scared of it. In my opinion, the scariest part of 36 is caused by not being comfortable with the speed and everyone telling you their worst experiences of 36.

[harddock]

Maybe not as prestigious but there is also the INT league. They have divisions in all age groups You can be 14 and be a novice up to advanced capped at 34.2 or expert open @ 36. They have jr expert, men both up to 34 and then older than 35 advanced, advanced open, open and super advanced open, super open, and pro determined by ages and working on15&22, or 28&32 or35 and shorter. You compete against people with similar ability and once you've achieved all you can in your division you bump up. Your ability dictates your division. Less intimidating, more competitive! Unfortunately they are only slalom waterski. Wake board, skate and surf are there other genre's offered.

[Chef23]

My major issue with INT is that the events are generally just one round. I like having 2 or 3 rounds to get a score. I do like having ability based divisions.

[John Brooks]

Interesting to look at the AWSA scoring system @Chef23 & @harddock and see that the scoring system allows for the difference in speeds. How about in all AWSA divisions giving the skier the choice to ski any speed they like, any rope length they like? The scoring model accounts for the differences.