New Reflex Supershell with R Style Rear Evaluation

[Ed_Johnson]

I will start off by saying, this is BY FAR the BEST Boot System I have ever used, and I believe the safest.

 

Background: I have been using Double Boots since the early eighties..Started using Double Hardshells in the Mid Nineties, to include Powershells, Fluid Motion, and Fogman. In 2000 I tried a Reflex Front with a Wiley Rear, but my back foot felt like I had no control and went back to Double Hardshells.

 

A year a go, I was talking with Andy Mapple about having more lower body movement, COM control, and he told me to try the Reflex with R Style Rear. I was already on one of his skis and his Lake is 10 mins. from my house. I decided when his next new ski came out that he was working on with Chris LaPoint, I would definitely go over and try both. Sadly, that opportunity has passed.

 

At Nationals this year, I got to see first hand the New Supershell System with R Style Rear, and I was really impressed how Reflex had incorporated all the Modifications that skiers have been doing for the last several years..I also kept thinking about how I could get more hip movement with the R Style Rear that Andy was talking about. Talked to Daniel at Miami Ski Nautique, who sent me a complete setup overnight.

 

Evaluation: First set felt really weird at first, but there was no doubt that there was way more hip movement available than I ever had before. I just stayed at running 32 and 35....2nd set was a lot better and I started getting way more aggressive with my COM movement...So much so that I backsided 2 ball, loaded WAY forward in the direction of travel, accelerated like a Rocket, and OTF off the center of the wake..I had not planned to purposely test the system this way, but it worked flawlessly, and was really entertaining for my ski partners.

 

Two days later and the 3rd set...Now I had confidence that the system worked like it was suppose too..Andy had told me you had to really tighten down the back 2 straps on the Rear R Style to keep your foot in place..I had done this, but wondered if it would release properly in a fall...It did, so I was no longer worried about that. Now I could go out and work on things I was restricted to do before and feel I can now take my skiing to the next level...Plus I will have more freedom to test more skis without having to go through $50 of Dual Lock and a lot of work every time.

 

Conclusion: First impression was how much lighter the Supershell System felt on my feet compared to the Powershells..Also, the increased amount of hip movement available is really evident..The biggest surprise was how much more connected to the ski I felt..The front boot is absolutely Rock Solid and gave me MUCH quicker edge changes...I felt this same change years a go when I went from Rubber to Hardshells, but this was Hardshell to Hardshell..I believe the Double Front Horse shoes, combined with the Heal Piece insert, really eliminates any flex with the boot...You are really one with the ski...It would be a HUGE adjustment to go from Rubber to this.

 

So after only three sets I am really impressed with this System, very comfortable of the safety aspect, and have listed both sets of my Powershells on Ski-it-Again.

 

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[Than_Bogan]

Geat review! We need more binding reviews. Critical equipment that seems to get "afterthought" treatment sometimes.

 

[OldboyII]

Thanks for comprehensive review.

I am a very intermediate skier but missing a feeling of control and response which I have in alpine skiing.

Question to experts:

Is this system suitable for intermediate skier?

Or it is an expert choice?

 

Besides it may be a bonus for air travelers with ski - almost flat ski w/o boot(s) will fit to smallest Sportube )

 

[gregy]

@Ed_Johnson can you explain why it gives you the ability to move your hips more as compared to the Powershells.

 

Please post some pics if you have a chance.

[Deanoski]

@OldboyII yes great set up for intermediate I know many that have gone the reflex system and had more control. tight boot to protect the ankle and set the release easy or hard to release.

 

[Ed_Johnson]

@OB1 ... Dual Carbon Plates..Does the ski flex more? It may, feels way different from before, but now I am able to get my hips more to the inside coming into and off the apex..Also. lead more with COM when loading, plus a definite quicker and more effortless edge change.

 

@gregy ... You can move your hips more because you can flex your rear ankle more...There is nothing to restrict it...It is a very noticeable difference. Listen to what Andy says about it towards the end of the video starting at 7:31.

 

[Ed_Johnson]

@OB1 ... I believe because you have 2 Carbon Plates, separated by an inch or so, you actually free the ski up to flex more than the full G-10 Plate that the Poweshells have, plus 2 layers of Dual Lock. It also feels MUCH lighter.

[ISP6ball]

@Ed_Johnson, I was looking at moving from double rubber bindings to this set up, but your saying it would be a huge adjustment. What do you recommend for me? Thanks

[Ed_Johnson]

@ISP6ball ... I totally recommend this setup, I believe it is the best there is, and one of the safest, along with the OB4. Just realize it may take a while to get use to. There has to be a reason so many Pro-Skiers are on Reflex.

 

Another point no one has brought up before, but I feel with ZO you need to be front foot dominant. Double Boots worked well for me with Perfect Pass, where the reactive power to your load came back at you slower....ZO comes back quicker, so I feel I need to load quicker and have forward COM in place quicker..ie: Nate Smith. Who uses a rear kicker..The rear high wrap boot can restrict forward hip movement..Don't take my word for it, listen to what Andy says about it in the video above.

 

If you want one call Daniel at Miami Ski Nautique and tell him Ed Johnson from Orlando sent you. Free shipping and no Tax if your out of state...Daniel knows this system and can set one up for you. They give excellent service.

[rockdog]

@ISP6ball any change requires adjusting to, it's just that some are worth the effort and some aren't.

 

In this case it will be worth your while, I have done the same changeover a while back and can vouch for it. Good write up from @Ed_Johnson .

[gt2003]

@Ed_Johnson , any idea if they will be making it in a size 13 for us mutant midgets? I robbed my Obrien Targa bindings off my synchro before I sold it and have a feeling I will need new bindings next year. Thanks

[Ed_Johnson]

@gt2003 ... I am a size 13 and it fits fine...This is the largest one they will build..Just get the Thin Liner instead of the Thick one and you will be fine.

[gregy]

How close of spacing can you get. I wear 13 also. I'm worried I can't get my foot close enough together.

[Ed_Johnson]

@gregy ... I can actually get my feet closer together with the R Style Rear than I could with the Powershells..Not sure you want to do that though..Will explain in my Set #4 Evaluation shortly.

[Chef23]

In the r-style the toe of the rear boot is cut off so you should be able to get them as close together as anything except for a RTP or maybe a Wiley if your toes are actually touching the back of the boot. Certainly closer than double hardshells or Radar boots unless you make some modifications.

[Ed_Johnson]

Update, Set #4: ... Today I moved the rear binding forward as far as it would go, which left a gap of only 3/8" between the Carbon Plates..Started out at my normal opener of 32 off..Ski felt really nimble coming around the turn, good pullout and Gate, but Bam, overturned one ball big time...Ran a couple more passes and realized the ski was really sensitive to input off the apex..If you want it to turn on a dime, this is your setting..I've still stuck with only running 32 & 35 till I get it dialed in exactly like I want it.

 

In conclusion: Never felt bindings before that could affect tuning the ski so much with such small movements...This is more like Fin Adjustment...I believe this is a really GOOD thing...I've decided for the next set to move the rear back one hole, which would give 3/4" space between Carbon Plates. Also, I had my rear boot angled at the max setting, so I am going to reduce that by half...If I remember correctly, Andy had his plates at least an inch apart, and the rear angled about half..Will give it a shot Fri. morning to see how that turns out.

 

 

[drewski32]

Are you really supposed to make the buckles on the r-style tight? I run mine very loose so it doesn't hold me back on the ski. I went to this from a rtp

[Ed_Johnson]

@drewski32 ... I believe loose may feel good to you because your coming from a RTP, which is as loose as it gets...If you look at Andy's video I posted above, he states to tighten them as tight as possible to keep the foot from moving around.....For me, or anyone else that is coming from a rear hardshell, we are use to our whole foot being firmly in place..What we now have with the R is the ability to flex our ankle much more forward without being restricted by an upper cuff. This allows more hip and COM movement, which I will attest too. That is the real benefit to this setup.

[gregy]

@Ed_Johnson I measured heel to heel on my present setup at about 12.5" . I'm 6'2". Size 13 feet. How tall are you? I'm thinking ideal spacing would be somewhat dependent on the height of a person. I've always tried to get my feet really close but recently discovered I ski better with a more seperation. I'm ready to do some experimenting as well.

[Ed_Johnson]

@gregy ... I am 6'4" @225lbs. It seems to me that when they are really close the ski is ultra sensitive, and farther apart is more stable.

[gregy]

I think Andy was about the same height as me. From what you remembered, seemed like he perferred a wider spacing. What I'm feeling is that its easier for me to get into and stay in a stacked hips forward position. May be due to a more stable feel?

[Adam Caldwell]

Too close is not good. Very hard to recover balance when getting in trouble, or even when your in amazing shape, maybe too early, its nearly impossible to stay off the nose. The extra spacing allows you to control those situations easier without being punished for having an amazingly early preturn. 13" is about the max I can go. I am 5'10, size 11shoe. But usually am most comfortable between 12 3/8 to 12 5/8. 12.25" is about as close as I ever want to be.

[skifan]

@adamhcaldwell .. is that measurement from the back of the front boot to the back of the rear boot?

[Ed_Johnson]

@adamhcaldwell .... I would be glad to test one of your skis with the Supershell Binding system and give you in-depth reports back. I'm in Orlando and can ski all year round on our own private Lake.

[cruznski]

This is a great thread, and it is appreciated. Now I am not an up to date equioment skier, and in fact are on old HO Animals but they are pretty much done. It was my thought to get the most of my time on the course, I am really thinking about Reflex. Ed do you think it would be an ultra shock to the system to jump on these from rubber? I am pretty adaptable.

Also if one has a narrow foot, so do the 'thick' liners take care of some of that?

Also I am thinking of jumping right up to the new one with the double horeshoes and all as described here.

[gregy]

@skifan the distance between. Heel to heel or ankle bone to ankle bone, etc.

[drewski32]

The new shell is larger, correst? Is that an improvement, or is it just different? What's the reason for that?

 

Also does the double horseshoe affect the ability to release?

[Ed_Johnson]

@cruznski ... Yes it will be a shock, but a welcome one..Yes you want to go to the New Supershell, it is so vastly improved over the old system...As far as liners, I have always used the thick ones, however, the Supershell is stiff, so it feels narrower to me...I just got off the phone with Daniel at Miami Ski Nautique and he is sending me out a Reflex Thin Liner to try...If your interested, call him and tell him I sent you..He is the one there that is knowledgeable about the Supershell and can set you up.

 

Once you get use to this system, and it may take a few sets, thats normal...You will NEVER go back to rubber again..You will have total control over the ski like you never had before.

 

 

[Nando]

@cruznski , just to echo Ed_Johnson's comments (and thanks, Ed for the reviews, these are great), I made the switch last year from Animals to a black cuff Reflex with R-style rear, primarily to free up my rear foot and hips, but also to get the control of the hard shell. The adjustment takes a bit, for sure.

 

The main things I noticed at first were that the Reflex, by eliminating the thick sole plate of the Animal, transmits a lot more feel through the ski, which I like. It also is sensitive to how tight the buckles are- the flex of the hinged cuff is altered quite a bit by the tightness of the top buckle. Starting with it quite loose helped me adjust to the greater sensitivity of the system; I now ski with it a bit tighter, but loose enough to maintain flexibility. Likewise, the R-style rear can be fine-tuned a bit with the buckles, as has been mentioned.

[DaveD]

After reading this thread and thinking back on others that discussed moving the rear binding back, I moved it back about a 1/2" tonight before my first set. After 2 set tonight, I'm glad I did. My weak-side turns calmed down and became more consistent. Hopefully I see the same results tomorrow to prove to me it wasn't me just skiing better.

 

Sorry Ed, don't mean to hijack your thread on the Supershell but this discussion did provide the motivation to make the change.

[Ed_Johnson]

@DaveD ... Glad to hear it..When I moved mine back just1/4" it made the ski more stable without compromising anything else....I also reduced the rear angle of the R Boot by half and it even allowed for more hip movement.

 

Also, to keep the feeling that I was in a Full rear boot, instead of a half boot, I placed a strap around the top of my rear liner and pulled it tight....It fools your mind really well into thinking you still have an upper cuff, like a rear Powershell....Works Great !!!!

[DefectiveDave]

@Ed_Johnson ,

 

Thanks for posting your review! I know a lot of us are curious about the new supershell and are happy to hear your thoughts.

 

I have a question which I have trouble verifying from the images. Does the new heel support result in any additional heel lift of the boot? I've been using an 1/8" lift on my normal Reflex 750, which I like.

[ISP6ball]

@Ed_Johnson what kind of strap are you placing at the top of your rear liner? Thanks for the help

[Ed_Johnson]

@DefectiveDave ... Yes, there is definitely heal lift, plus it is a cup, so it adds side support and stabilizes the heal...Along with the double horse shoe, it makes you one with the ski.

 

@ISP6ball ... Started with a Velcro strap that I sewed to the liner, but it didn't seem strong enough....My Wife does a lot of Dog Rescue work, so I went through a box of Dog Collars she had, and found a black one that fit perfectly, with a plastic buckle..It's adjustable and works perfectly !!!

 

 

[Fehlindra]

on my heal cup there isn't any heal lift at all it just secure the binding rly rly good so the shell stand firm on the g10 but ofc. you can add materials under the heal cup to get lift but maybe lose some of the shell bolted down feeling don't know...

 

[OldboyII]

Heel lifting may change geometry of the release mechanism and tension of the release spring followed by incorrect work of the system.

May be it would be safer to put lifting pad inside the shell?

[Fehlindra]

only got 1 ride on the new shell and must say that its really nice and easy to get and hold edge i just had some trouble with my offside 2-4-6 cos of what i think is my lower leg shape mine is like the first pic from left

 

so when im bolting the reflex shell down to my left feet the ski will lean outward and make my offsides rly hard to initiate and finish any tips how i shall mod the shell/plate to even out the problem maybe need to make an new post for this or change category Flag myself off topic

 

 

[Jordan]

A lot of people cut down the shell on the old black boot so that the top of the boot is lower on your leg ....that will make it so that the upper shell will be less affected by your shin.

 

In the Mapple video above he talks about rotating the shell to allow you to get aligned. It's at the 4:10 mark or so.

[gregy]

@Ed_Johnson did you try the thin liner yet? I have an aqua intuition liner I can use. What width is your foot? I'm a 13b and kinda flat. I have a black top reflex to try just waiting on R-Style to be delivered. If I like the setup I'm going to order a supershell. Just wondering how much more volume the supershell has. The regular shell seems to fit about right with a instole in the liner.

[Chuck_Dickey]

Did anyone post if you can retro a 750 standard set up or do you need a new plate with the double toe loops?

[DW]

@Fehlindra: to accommodate the cant due to foot sole angle v ground plane, when I attach my binding plate (Animals) to the ski, I install some washers between the plate and ski to cant the attachment plate. Works well for me and evens out the on v offside turns. Make sure you get stainless washers. If you are using a Velcro attachment system, perhaps some old snow ski binding wedges would accomplish the same thing.

[thager]

@DW Nylon washers also work well and won't scratch the ski.

[Ed_Johnson]

@gregy ... I am a 13 med. width..I use the thin Reflex Liner with a thick running half sock. I do have the plastic paper thin liner taped in the bottom, same as Goode provides. I tried my Goode Intuition Liner, but it was to thick...Works great in the back though, on the R Style. I also had to move the front top buckle over one hole because it was to tight.

 

Also, the back R is canted one hole over in the front, which gives it just the right angle...I also raised the rear 1/4" to match the front boot...This works great and feels more natural..While I was coming around the turn to line up with the course I always found myself lifting the back heel. Raising it 1/4" solved that problem and makes everything seem solid.

 

I am extremely happy with the Supershell..Much more stable than my previous Reflex, and the R Style allows so much more COM movement..This is the first week I feel I am done tweaking and am skiing back into 38 again. This setup has made my Maple so much more responsive that it feels like a new ski..Turns on a dime now. This feels like the biggest improvement to my skiing since I switched to Hardshells 20 years a go.

 

 

[jimski]

@Ed_Johnsontheres lots of positive feed back on the R style rear boot what about a rear full boot ? It looks like there's not to many skiers using the double reflex system is it mostly because you can't get your feet close enough ?

[Ed_Johnson]

@jimski ... You tend to see more skiers in Europe on the double Reflex Boots and I believe you can get them close enough...That being said, after years of skiing on Double Hardshells of all brands, I am no longer a fan of a full rear boot of any type...The R feels like a full rear boot but gives you such a greater range of motion and so much more COM movement available...Plus the safety factor of the R is a huge plus...I just can't say enough good things about this system.

[gregy]

I tried the R-sytle today with a old black top front. The closest I could get the rear gave a 13.25" (I was at 12.5" before) spacing. Standing I couldn't feel a difference with the extra 3/4". But I wasn't sure what effect it would have on the ski.

 

Took a couple of passes to get used to it but no crashes and I had some of the smoothest passes I had in a while on the second set. I felt a lot freer to move around on the ski and it felt easier to get my hips forward in all phases of the course. I put a blue superfeet insole on the front the rear I heat molded the reflex R-style liner. I had some issue getting up. Took 3 tries.

 

I'm going to go ahead and order a Supershell front.

[Ed_Johnson]

@gregy ... Glad to hear you already felt that extra COM movement, it only gets better with time. As far as getting up, once you get use to using the ball of your back foot, it gets easier. Also raising the rear boot 1/4' makes it even more effective, but I would get use to it first.

 

Make sure you order the heel cup and the extra horse shoe...That's where the real Magic is.

 

 

 

[Ed_Johnson]

@OB1 .. Well since I did start this thread, I feel I do have the responsibility to answer questions pertaining exactly to that subject, and be as helpful as possible to those interested in it.

 

Sorry Reflex didn't work out for you and you obviously seem to feel a little bitter about it.

 

 

[gregy]

Supershell should be here tomorrow. I'm getting better at getting up. Only missed my first attempt. Hit a ball today and went out the front. Not as much crushing, more OTF. Reflex released with no ankle pain at all, very happy with that.

[gregy]

@cruznski I just tried on the Supershell for first time today. I have a A-B width foot. I used my intuition liners with Superfeet blue insole. It felt really comfortable even a little better fit than I expected and more toe room than the Black top I had been using. The Supershell sets back farther on the plate so I can actually get the spacing a 1/4" closer than with the Black top.

 

I was using T-factors so coming of a rubber bindings. With only a few weeks I set a 3 plus year practice PB on the Black Top with R-style. But the best part is how much more controlled I felt than before. I hope to try the Supershell Sunday or Monday if the weather cooperates.

 

@Ed_Johnson did you do anything with the strap or leave it in the middle position?