New Reflex Supershell with R Style Rear Evaluation

[gregy]

I have a few sets on the Supershell front and have not been as successful with it as I was on the black top so a took a good look at the both to try and determine what the difference is. I have the largest boot available size of both models. I have a 13b foot, its narrow and low volume. I've been using the Intuition Aqua liner and using a blue Superfeet insole. I had to cut the insole a little shorter and actually cut the area out where my big toe is to give it more room.

 

The overall length on the black top was 13" and 13 1/4" on the Supershell. However the Black top has a rounded rim around the tip that protrudes about 1/8". The Supershell is a little thicker so the interior length may be closer to 1/4' difference than the full 3/8".

 

Width at widest point Blacktop approx 4 3/8", Supershell is 4 5/8". Again the Supershell is thicker so it probably not a full 1/4" wider.

 

As stated the Supershell is thicker. This makes it noticeably heavier, not by a significant amount but if you pick one up and then the other you can tell a difference. This extra thickness makes them stiffer. I think this, as Ed Johnson mentioned, may be a major factor to the problem I'm feeling since I was coming off of T-factor bindings which are rubber.

 

The Supershell is a little more roomier especially in the toe area. This may be contributing to some of the difference I'm feeling because my foot is not quite as locked in as it was in the black top boots. I have some options to try and alleviate this such as remolding the liner, different insole. Shims for full length or just under heel (put under the liner to remove some volume), and/or Wearing socks.

 

One thing I found was that the heel cup adds no height to the heel area. If you take the heel cup off and place it under the boot the boot heel bottom actually protrudes past the cup bottom. I measured the heel piece height with and without the cup and it less than a 1/16" difference. I suspect when you are standing and putting pressure in the boot that small amount will go away.

[Ed_Johnson]

@gregy ... I reset the back strap to the full forward position to give myself as much range as possible. As far as liners go, I use the Thin Reflex Front and Rear with a thick athletic Half Sock.

 

These are the most comfortable bindings I have ever used, with the greatest Range of COM Motion.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@gregy, to help with toe volume issues, rather then building up underneath the foot, I like to pack things in on top. I currently use a shaped piece of old binding rubber, but have used things like 3/16" foam rubber matting. Keeps your foot grounded to the bottom of the shell, while filling the volume in from the top down.

[gregy]

Had my best set to date on the supershell today. I remolded the intiution liner. I had seen where it was recommended on snow ski boots to put a 2x4 under the front of the boot when molding. Putting the 2x4 under the front helps your heel get set in properly. I put almost no tension on the buckles. This combination seemed to take up the extra room.

 

The other problem was that the front of the ski kept catching on the turns with supershell vs the old black top. So I moved the Supershell back 1/8" (thanks to the mikro-just I added). That took out the tip sensitivity. For the first time I can say I liked the supershell better than the black top.

[gregy]

Had my best set to date on the supershell today. I remolded the intiution liner. I had seen where it was recommended on snow ski boots to put a 2x4 under the front of the boot when molding. Putting the 2x4 under the front helps your heel get set in properly. I put almost no tension on the buckles. This combination seemed to take up the extra room.

 

The other problem was that the front of the ski kept catching on the turns with supershell vs the old black top. So I moved the Supershell back 1/8" (thanks to the mikro-just I added). That took out the tip sensitivity. For the first time I can say I liked the supershell better than the black top.

[Howa1500]

 

 

A merry Christmas from reflex. A rather green Christmas here in buffalo, ski season should start soon at this rate.

[Milford]

I have been using double power shells for the last 9 years and decided to make the jump to the Reflex Poweshell with R Style this spring. Ordered everything from Miami Ski Nautique and had a great experience. I have modified a Poweshell and turned it into an R Styke and added buckles. Have not skied it yet, as our lakes are still frozen, but am excited to give it a rip. Here are some pics of the set up:

[gregy]

@Milford whats the contraption on the back boot? I had been wondering how a Supershell lower would work with the r-style.

[Milford]

@gregy the contraption on the back of the rear boot is actually kitchen cabinet hardware. It allows me to deep water start with the rear boot off the ski. Once up on the water, I slide it into place and snap in. This significantly reduces stress on the lower back. I had the same system on my powershells and have been using it for approximately 7 years with great success. Here are a few more pics with the boot off the ski:

[Wish]

@Milford wow.. Cool!

[Chef23]

@Milford that is really cool for the back binding. How hard is it to get in? Does it always stay on the ski when you release? I would be worried about it coming off and you lose the rear boot somehow.

[Milford]

@Chef23 It is very simple to get the back binding in place and snap in. It is similar to placing your foot in a rear toe plate. Once the latch on the back of the binding locks in, it does not come off. I have been using the Goode Powershells with this system and depended on the interlock as the release mechanism. Now with the Reflex Supershell, no need for interlock as the front boot releases independently from the rear boot. While using the Goode interlock system, I always feared that the back boot would somehow come off the ski and the front boot wouldn't. I don't think that would end very well. With the R Style, the liner simply comes out of the shell, so no need for interlock. For the record, the interlock system worked very well and I never had any issues with both boots releasing as they should. Had some pre-release situations that have motivated me to move to the Reflex system.

 

Keep in mind, if for some reason the rear boot did come off the ski, it is attached to your foot, so I don't think it will go to far.

[RAWSki]

Very clever set up, do you reach down and release it if you are dropping for a rest? Then put it back in when you get up, I guess it just takes some practice, at first thought I would be worried about getting it back in time on short set-up situations.

[Milford]

@RAWSki At each end of the lake, once I swing out to settle to shorten the rope, as I am sitting in the water, I reach back and open the latch, which removes the binding from the ski. Once I deep water start, I clip in and I am ready to go. Short set ups are sometimes a little stressful, but in those situations you have the option to deep water start with both bindings attached to the ski, so you don't have to stress about clipping in.

 

If you think about how many deep water starts you do in a week, they add up. Someone skiing skiing 2 sets a day, 4 days a week would average 60-80 deep water starts. That a lot of stress on the lower back. For someone who is trying to manage lower back issues, this set up is magic. All the benefit of a hard shell system with the flexibility to drag a foot on the start. I ski with a guy who is 72 and is still getting into 35 off. He is convinced that the reason he can still ski is because he uses an RTP and drags his foot on the start. I agree with his logic.

[RAWSki]

I do miss being able to pull my back foot out when I drop. I have always said it cuts down my sets by a pass or two. Great idea... you might have a side business for Ballers that want that convenience! I'll take two!

[Fehlindra]

Found an hardshell boot that I started today to trim down to get R-style performance now it has lower height than the blue vapor even if it stands on the table and the hard boot is on the ski i just need to move one of buckles don't think i need to cut the front out or whats the reason Reflex do that? i can imagine the shell losen up a bit and get less stiff and moves with your motion more. Gonna try the vapor liner first before i buy the low profile reflex one

[skialex]

@Milford great idea, bear in mind though that kitchen cabinet hardware are most likely made of a brass alloy that contains 2% lead which hardens the metal to avoid bending but under stress it can break. Make sure that the hinge you are using is made is a different metal, out of stainless steel if possible.

 

[Deanoski]

@Fehlindra the toe is cut out of the R rear so the front release will work and its a lot easier to get in,( try putting the front on and off it's almost impossible with a full rear toe

( no cut out)

[Fehlindra]

k i have now heat molded the shell so the front is more flat and gonna bolt it down so the toe box is flat against the binding plate, but its some tension in the shell and lifts in the rear so an wedge is prob needed but need that anyway (an normal hair dryer worked)

[gregy]

@Fehlindra I put a 3/16" thick shim under the my heel on the R-style. I really surprised at how much more comfortable I felt with it. I feel more balanced and physically more comfortable for my foot. I skied better with from the first ride.

[Ed_Johnson]

Did the same thing..3/16 to a 1/4 inch plastic shim under the R Style Heel..Huge difference.

[bishop8950]

@milford I remember when we met on the dock at Laku for regionals years ago and we talked about that hardware on your back foot while you were fresh off your back surgery. I love when we find customs solutions that meet our specific needs. Glad to see that has held up for you all these years since!

[Fehlindra]

@gregy @Ed_Johnson agree on the shim, take it step further stand on the floor as you do on the ski simulate an pull open to the the boat turn your hips and a bit of your spine as u normally do, now when you are at your max (open) lift the heel of the rear fot a bit and twist the rear foot as much as you can while the toes still remain on the floor (ski) check how much more you open up (stays open to the boat) test both onside and offside when i did it its ALOT more!!! now to the thingy is it possible to make the R- binding twist, yes i know its possible to do but is it possible to ski with it or learn to ski with it

[gregy]

@Fehlindra The twist on the rear was either too much or not enough with R-style. I was having sever hip pain on my rear leg after skiing. I elongated the holes to in the boot to get right were I need it.

[Fehlindra]

ok i think u missed me there the more u twist the rear binding = help you stay open more on one side but at the same time the other side gonna be more locked. what i ment in the previous post was if it was possible to get the best out of two worlds an rear boot that wasn't fixed in place or more that give you the ability to twist the rear fot in the course like you can do with an RTP but more. how to build it ftm dont know -sliding bearings some rubber think it need some resistance drag. in the video with Andy rtp myths he moves hes fot but very little to one side, i think some people can see the adv of it particular all of us that haven't that body made of rubber.

[gregy]

My old T-factor rear would twist back and forth all the time. I started checking the screws everytime I went out.

[skialex]

@Fehlindra you can use thick rubber pieces as absorbers / stoppers to the sides of the boot heel in order to allow a little heel flex sideways and at the same time avoid a loose feeling.

Alex,

[Stathis Ventouris]

 

Tried the old Powershell modified to fit in my reflex plate. A lot softer than the Black Reflex did not feel as connected to the ski, need to try it again especcially on my hardest pass (35off) to be able to tell whether I like it more than the Reflex one.

[Mark Poppleton]

I am currently skiing on double Goode Hardshells and need a new setup. I want to go with Reflex but not sure what to do about a Rear set up? Not sure the R Style is the way to go? Do I go Wylie, R-Style or a rear Reflex boot? Does anyone have any insight? Thank you

 

[Gloersen]

The front Supershell will require some acclimation. Determining how much freedom of upper cuff articulation is key based on upper buckle tension and liner thickness, etc. Also some have reported more tip pressure by comparison.

 

Suggest you try sizing them first, e.g., my foot is US 11 but in an 8 Supershell with Intuition liner (heat molded). It’s very snug, but the sense of connection is much better, and after a few “break-in” sets the ischemia resolves. If currently using Intuition liners in the Powershells, it may be best to start with those in the Reflex.

 

Ultimately the Reflex R-style RB is a great choice imo. The inherent shape of it though allows a bit of medial-lateral rocking motion at the forefoot. This can be fixed by using a heat gun to flatten the forefoot (on a baking tin) and then an extra T-nut over the lateral toe portion to hold it down firmly on the mounting plate. This will also help prevent the screw mounts from working loose. Moving the rear large T-nut to the very back of the heel helps too.

 

The easiest transition would probably be Reflex FB/Wiley RB (not too snug). Personally I think the Reflex RB is safer though from the release aspect.

 

Be sure you dry test your FB release setting several times and not too much tension to release.

 

[BlueSki]

Also, test the rear too if you go with the R style, as you would a full Reflex boot. I started with HO liners that released well, but the Reflex silver liner, not so much. Just a second too long on the release of my foot.

[gregy]

@Mark Poppleton I've been on double boots since the mid 80s. The R-style took some getting used to. At first I had a feeling my foot was going to come out off the wakes. After a couple of weeks I didn't even notice it anymore. I put a 3/16" spacer plate made out of Plexiglas and slotted out the holes in the boot for more rotation. That, to me made the setup feel much more comfortable. Loving it now after, been on it for about 6 months. The Black top was an easy transition from rubber boots. I didn't like the Supershells at first, the extra sensitivity took some getting used to for me. Glad I stuck with the supershells now, the black tops were too small and hurting my toes.

[Fehlindra]

With the R-style you get that full forward and aft movement but the heel are still locked in as an full hardboot preventing any twisting left to right as u can do in an RTP that can help the hip stay more open. Dont know if its possible to modify the R-style to something like this trick binding without the rear heel buckle

 

[DanE]

@Fehlindra Why do you want your hips open to the boat?

[Fehlindra]

So i can stay more level with my shoulders to get an more symmetrical pull, and prevent too much twist on my spine have problem with my back and my hip flexors are very what do you say short or tight (not like an gymnast) On dry land holding onto a rope it feels like i can get my COM faster over my front fot and keep it there when twisting my rear fot

[Than_Bogan]

What trick binding is that? Looks interesting.

[dchristman]

@Than_Bogan it doesn't go on the ski, it is used for a toe pass instead of a traditional bear trap. It is made by Reflex.

 

@Fehlindra What benefit would an r-style rear with the heel cut out provide over a regular adjustable RTP? It seems to me the whole point of the r-style is more flexibility with the security of a heel while still allowing release similar to that of an RTP. If you cut the heel away, you are left with an expensive, hard, adjustable RTP.

[jimski]

first set on the supper shell and r style rear

I set the front boot at 29.5 and its very tip sensitive grabby. does any one have any fin settings with this set up on the 2014 green vapor

Thanks

[Jordan]

Before changing the fin settings...sounds like you need to move the binding back.

[Fehlindra]

@dchristman I cant tell what you get out of it i can just assume it provides more twist ability in an very comfy down trimmed boot thingy i dont own an RTP but shall try a few different ones out to see what i wanna achieve

[Ed_Johnson]

@jimski ... With the R-Style, getting the right spacing between the front and rear boot is critical. Because the R-Style has the nose cut off so much, it is really easy to get it closer to the front boot than anything you have used before. Moving the rear boot back will decrease the sensitivity much more than any fin setting would.

 

 

[Horton]

@Fehlindra I am not sure you are going down the right path with your open hips idea. If you are interested in some comments on the subject please start another thread.

[jimski]

Thanks guys I'll start with that

[gregy]

I'm on a 2015 Vapor 67. @jimski what size are you on. I had to move mine back some. It took me a few weeks to get used to the tip sensitivity, skiing better than ever now.

[jimski]

@gregy on a 67 tried the 15 and went back to the 14

I have the front boot as far back on the adjustment as it will go 29.5 I did move the rear r style boot back and it's as far back on the plate as it will go I will try it tomorrow not to sure what to do if it needs to go ack any further

[gregy]

@jimski depending on where your measure. I'm 29 3/4 to back of white heel cup. Closer to 29.5 to back of boot just under block.

 

[jimski]

I moved the rear boot back and it felt better I think it could go back a little further but I am out of adjustment with the plates on the front and rear

[MattP]

@jimski can't you move the Rstyle on the plate itself if you need more adjustment?

[jimski]

@MattP the boots are as far back on the plates as they can go ?

I can put new inserts in the rear of the front boot to avoid the heal bracket and gain about 1/4 inch back

[Fehlindra]

@jimski maybe its possible to remove the locknut on the release to get to the last hole and move binding plate further back if you need maybe u need another screw some low profile Flathead