Gate Coaching

[DefectiveDave]

Hey Ballers,

 

I badly need some help with my gates. I feel like I just can't get a good stack going into 1 ball. The lake was blown out the other day and I did some free skiing in a cove to exclusively work on my gate shot (28 off @ 34 mph). Here is the video where the first set of gate shots is a 9 mph tail wind and the second set is the accompanying head wind:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ugsZLgmh0

 

In that video I'm trying really hard to do 3 things:

 

1) Get wide on the boat before pull in

2) Get forward and turn my hips away from the coarse before initiating the gate shot

3) Keep the handle as close to my hips as possible from the time I start my glide to the time I get through the 2nd wake

 

I think I'm getting 2.5 of those things right, but I lose the handle and any hope of a stack by the time I reach the first white water. Then I overload about the time I reach the first wake and start getting pulled out of my lean. The worst example of this is the last pull in the video.

 

Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

[bassfooter]

There are many readers who are far more qualified as coaches, but I'll happily draw on my recent experience to take a stab at this. I'd love to know what was happening in the course that makes you think your gates are to blame.

 

You appear to be doing most things correctly. You are drifting in a bit before your actual turn-in. It will help to get your weight on your front foot during your glide, and keep the handle low and your elbows in.

 

Then it appears you turn in on the tail of the ski. This prevents your getting the ski on edge in a good stack, and that means less speed and angle across the wakes. In a few of the attempts in your video, you can see that your ski is riding on the tail almost all the way to the wakes. Instead, during the glide, get your weight on your front foot and look down the course, then drop your hips in the direction you wish to go and allow the handle to move to your outside (left) hip. This will get you stacked and gets the ski on its edge earlier so you can get some work done behind the boat and get flung out wide and early to one-ball.

 

Here's a great video that helped me immensely:

 

Cheers!

[DefectiveDave]

@bassfooter

 

Thanks for the insight. What's happening in the course is I'm having a hard time getting good gates @ 28 off. I get pulled narrow into 1 ball and catch what i feel is a large amount of slack. On the rare occasions that I get good gates I tend to run the pass or come close. With bad gates I'm lucky to get 3 ball. There are definitely other things I can work on, but right now the gate feels like it has the potential for the biggest gains so I'm focusing on it for the next few weeks. I've got to stay focused on one thing to make any real gains.

 

Reading your comments and going back into the video, perhaps I am getting on my back foot. I feel forward on the glide and am in fact pushing my weight forward, but I guess I fall back when its time to edge into the course. I wonder if I'm waiting too late to turn in and have lost too much speed; as you mentioned I'm drifting inward. This could potentially generate load early and pull the handle away.

[wtrskior]

Stop with turning your hips away like that. Bring your left hip forward and maintain line tension with your outside arm. Hips perpendicular to the ski with head up and shoulders in line with hips facing down the lake, not to the opposite shore.

 

You have a nice stance on the ski, very tall and forward.

 

You are drifting in, partly because you give a little too much to get out wide, be more progressive with your lean away from the white water.

 

You are pulling too much, too soon and for too long as well hence the slack and inability to turn at imaginary 1 ball.

[bassfooter]

I also found that solid gates are critical to running -28. I think it's primarily because it starts to get really tough to make up for mistakes at that rope length. It struck me that the times you start to drift in, you might have been waiting too long in your glide. Without 55s and entrance gates to gauge your position, it's going to be tough to be consistent with your timing, right? Your body does look to be in good position in the glide, but it's hard to tell if you're really weighting your front foot. The guy who coached me really focused on that front foot and initiating the turn with the hips, just like in the Digasperi video. It's been a huge help!

 

Another key to -28 and shorter is keeping your elbows pinned to your vest all the way out practically to the buoy line, but that's a different thread, my friend!

[DefectiveDave]

@wtrskior

 

Thanks for your comments. What do you mean by "You are drifting in, partly because you give a little too much to get out wide, be more progressive with your lean away from the white water."? I don't understand the give a little too much part.

 

My logic behind the hip rotation outward is that it opens me up to the boat once the ski has come around since I'm RFF and prevents me from leading with my upper body by forcing the hips to move instead. Of course, I'm definitely not saying its the right thing to do. It seems to me that moving the left hip forward would accomplish the same thing for LFF. Is that kind of logic flawed?

 

 

@bassfooter,

 

Unfortunately that's how long I normally wait for my turn in. Actually without the gates to distract me I turn in exactly when I want every time, haha. Maybe I need a gate turn-in speed calibration.

[A_B]

Focus on NOT leaning back and load in the tail on your turn in. Keep the front knee flexed before, during, and after you turn. Think about keeping your belly button over the front knee.

when you lean into the wakes think stand tall and lean away from the boat, not back.

[Skoot1123]

I noticed two predominant things. When your turning in for the gates you are leaning back on the ski - if ever so slightly. As a result of this your stack suffers going through the wakes. If you look at where your arms and handle are in relationship to your hips, there is a gap. This gap will make you loose speed and pull you up over the front of the ski when your going through the wakes. Get the handle to the hip and it'll do wonders for you!! (I have a constant battle with the same thing)

 

One question: Do you feel as if your skiing straight at the buoy after your gates or any of the turns?

[DefectiveDave]

@A_B,

 

Thanks for the comment. However, sometimes I need to translate things into terms my body understands, so let me ask a follow up.

 

When I turn into the gate I always feel like I only get a small amount of angle before the boat catches me (I'm not sure if this is normal), and I definitely still need to keep turning a ways before I have enough angle for the gate. However, when the boat catches me I feel as though I need to resist the load to keep from being pulled forward and maybe even out the front.

 

This feeling may be what causes me to fall back. Should I resist the urge to fight the load and let the boat keep pulling me forward? Or do I need to get more angle before the boat catches me? Both questions can probably be answered by not leaning back, but I'm not sure which one my problem is (perhaps both, haha).

[DefectiveDave]

@Skoot1123,

 

Whether I feel as though I'm skiing directly at the buoys depends on which pass I'm running. At 15 off, I virtually never feel narrow. At 22 off, maybe 10% of the time. At 28 off, probably around 70% of the time, but I have passes where I feel wide with lots of space when I have good gates.

 

I don't think my form is particularly good, but it's sufficient for those first 2 passes. At 28 off it doesn't quite cut it most of the time. However, if I can get a good enough body position or just brute force keep the handle in close to stay connected going out to the buoy then I can run it. Sometimes it even feels easy, but I have no delusions that I've actually gotten any better (just lucky). I have too many fundamental flaws to get too far beyond 28 off at this point.

[Chef23]

It is hard to know all the issues without seeing you in the course. The fundamentals don't look too bad for running 28. It could be a timing issue. I see some skiers adjust their intensity to be sure they hit the gates and that frequently leads to not enough angle or speed through the wakes. When that happens the tendency is to go flat to make sure you get around 1 ball which leads to slack. You never want the ski to be going down course it should always be moving cross course.

 

Regarding your point on not grabbing enough angle at the gates it sounds like you aren't quite free of the boat when you are turning in. Try turning in a few feet earlier and let the ski swing under the rope before loading the line. Then go hard through the second wake. If you miss the gates adjust your turn in timing next pass.

[A_B]

I try to rotate my left hip under the handle and then pin the handle to it. There is a balance point of forward and back and you will have to find your own where you feel comfortable. If I need more angle, I just drop my right hip down to the water, and if your arms are straight, push your chest up and you will get very good leverage. I "feel" more pressure in my right hand and this transfers to my left hand as I pass the right gate ball. You have to play around with this and have someone watch wetted surface of ski and your body position. Some of my best gates feel like I am not skiing parallel to boat path and turning, they feel like I reach a peak width and then turn slowly back in and gradually increase edge roll.

[gregy]

Because you are on the back of the ski it causes you to load early. Like not completing the turn out of a ball. When you don't complete a turn you end up with lack of angle.

 

When I did a coaching session with Seth Stisher things really started coming together for me. He had me pull out into my glide and try to put 90% of my weight on the balls of my front foot until the rear heel fells like its lifting - while pushing your hips forward. Then move my inside hip toward the gates. He also instructed me to keep my hips and shoulders facing down course and push the handle out in front of me a little (6 in to a foot) as I initiate the turn and let my outside hip ski back into the handle.

 

I'm LFF so the gate turn in is my offside. Since you are RFF it should be easier. With the hip movement to me I fell like I could fall over but the ski comes back under me. When it all works out right I get a ton of angle at a controlled speed. But I tend to start letting old habits creep back it. Ideally you want a carving turn that builds angle.

 

The other thing for me starting at 22 I have to really thing about getting the handle in after the wakes. If I let the handle out I'll for sure have slack at 1 ball and the pass is usually over. I've looked at some videos of myself lately and even with my handle in it was about 6" higher than I thought it was so this is something I'm really going to work on.

 

One last thing I've discovered kinda by accident recently. While experimenting with binding placement because of the way the holes are drilled in my ski I moved both front and rear back all the way which put my binding too close together. I liked the way the ski felt but started really having problems with my stack. I tried some different bindings that I was able to spread back out and right away things were better. I'm 6'2" and around 12.5" of separation seems to be good, I will continue to experiment with this though. I think it has to do with what Horton advocates about straightening the rear leg. With the closer spacing I was unable to do this.

[Wish]

First of all, smart that you are practicing this while free skiing. Drills are awesome. I'll toss out the 11:00 to 1:00 analogy. It is simple to remember and you can literally say the words in your head while skiing. Think of the ski as pointing to 12:00. In the glide you want your hips pointed to 11:00. So you're doing the 11:00 part but to much I think. Especially with your upper body. Dial that back a bit. You're setting yourself up to transfer to much of you to the turn in for the gate. Concentrate more on the hips to keep from drifting in rather then upper body twisting away. Note Andy does not have upper body twisted away..hips more important. So the first thing you should initiate to the gate shot is your hips to 1:00 (do not over do and go for 3:00). Do this by moving hips to the 1:00. That's it..simple. You can regulate how fast the turn in happens by how fast you move your hip to 1:00. In your video, your hips never really gets to 1:00 and certainly not with any speed. The drift in and tipping back to get the ski to go that direction is a result. Hard part for a lot of skiers is to not initiate anything else into the gate shot off glide. Hips go first. Note nothing moves to the gate before Andy's hip. A lot of times if you pin the rope to your hip in glide (tight-sh line is important) there is a tendency to raise or move arms and shoulders before hip. You actually keep your's pretty still but maybe to much and to tight to vest. With a lack of intentional movement of the hip first, your only choice is to lean back to get the ski to go. Because your so tall in the glide (really good thing), turning your hip in first should stop the leaning back and engage more of the ski as it roles in and you will pick up load sooner rather then later. This in turn will help stop any long pull in to one ball (slack maker for sure) and give you a chance to release the ski to the turning edge sooner. This is probably gonna mess up your gate timing for a while and it should. Practicing this in open water will probably help a great deal. So to sum up... hips to 11:00, maintain in glide, hips to 1:00 when it's time to go....

.

 

[skiep]

What wish said and hips "all the way up" this will help keep the arms in off the second wake.

[DefectiveDave]

@Chef23,

I'll give this a try this a try next time I go out. It looks like I'm going to be free skiing for a while with the way the weather is shaping up. I always feel awkward when I turn in before the line tightens up, but I guess I need to get used to it. Thanks!

 

@A_B,

I like the comment about reaching an apex before the turn-in. Maybe I shouldn't feel like I'm on a straight glide before my turn-in. Also, are you RFF or LFF? I'm trying to make sense of some of the comments you made and I'm not sure which direction you're talking about moving your hips when you say left or right hip. Thanks!

 

@gregy,

I've had trouble moving so much weight forward. I would say I am generally about 70% on my front foot at max (subjective feel). I generally get worried and feel like the ski is going to slip behind me if I shift too much weight, haha. Maybe it's just that I'm not used to the feel. Also, I have to lift my back heel to make that much weight transfer even possible. Is that what you do?

 

@Wish,

That seems like a really easy concept and I'm definitely going to give it a try. However, it sounds like the opposite of what I've heard before. I've generally hear that I want to rotate my hips outward and push them forward as I initiate the turn-in; this is supposed to move my mass forward and keep me open to the boat theoretically (almost like a dreaded "counter-rotation" to initiate). Granted, there is more than one way to skin a cat, but this is actually the first I've heard someone say that I want to rotate my hips to face towards the course to initiate the turn. Am I misunderstanding your meaning? I know that you know what you're talking about and are a much better skier than me. My guess is that I'm probably either misunderstanding you or am missing a critical concept here.

 

@skiep,

When you say "all the way up", do you mean as far forward as possible?

[DefectiveDave]

Also, thanks everyone for the great feedback so far. Something is bound to click sooner or later and I will have lots of stuff to try next time out!

[Wish]

Hmmm.. Ok so look closely at Andy. He holds his hips at what I called 11:00 to get the point across but It's more like 12:00. He is holding well, but he is advanced. Just before he turns in he moves hips to 11:00 then smoothly to 1:00 and moves nothing else. Hard to see in slow-mo. That little tiny move from 12:00-11:00 just before gate shot is an advanced move in my opinion and a low percent of success for us mortals. That little move is what others may be trying to get you to do and may feel all "countery". I do not do that move. Have tried it but success with consistency goes down. Best to limit movement and hold hips at 11:00 in glide. Stick with basic 11:00-1:00. if your trying that little move off the suggestion of others, it is not working at all and looks nothing like Andys little move. 11:00 to 1:00 is more fundamental oriented. Study Andys vid and see if the suggestions given that counter mine seem valid or is what I'm saying make more sense. :-)

[matthewbrown]

@DefectiveDave I think the first thing you need to ask yourself is, what are you trying to accomplish by pulling out so wide on your gates? Does pulling out wide give you an advantage? If so, how does it give you an advantage? The primary advantage in keeping width at your gates, would be the ability to quickly get your body in the correct leverage position while there is little load out wide, and before the brunt of the load comes at the wakes. With a wider gate, you should have time to accomplish this. However, in your video you have shot yourself in the foot as you have wasted your time out wide by drifting in and never attaining the proper speed and leverage position when the load comes. In short, the quickest remedy in doing this is don't pull out quite so wide, maybe pull out a little later, keep that width, and when you do decide to turn in for the gates, go for it, hard and fast. Because on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being an Andy Mapple intense gate, you are at about a 1.5. You just need to simplify, go harder earlier from a consistent setup point, act as if when you do decide to go, you are trying to get to that first wake as quickly as possible. Then you can bring that video back to the forum where some of the more advanced concepts being discussed on here can actually start to be worked on to refine your new approach.

[gregy]

@DefectiveDave I thought I was on the front. But after Seth watched me first think he told me is you have 100% of your weight on the rear foot, I was quite surprised. For a RFF I actually think is better to more balanced when turning in.

 

Andy has a little bit different gate but his hip movement is good. I think a taller position make for an easier gate. Like Regina here. Or TW. Tgas on the above video is a great example.

 

Cole G. really pushes his hips forward here.

 

Nate here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDYbdP9Q_rg

[A_B]

I am RFF and two hand gate. It is my onside so feel I can get as much angle as I need. When I pull out too long and have to go for broke with a quick turn and hookup, that is my worst gate. I can be narrow and still generate enough pop to get out to one ball. Late and fast is hard for me to recover from.

 

Agree with the intensity comment! Your lean through the gates sets the tone for the pass. IMO. Easier to learn how to maximize your edge roll on longer line so you will be able to do it at shorter line.

[dtm]

Reach your hands slightly up and toward the pylon to begin the rotation/turn in. This will allow room for hips to "rotate" under the line, and stay over your feet. With your arms so close, you're forced to fall back to get under the line....unless you're Andy.

[A_B]

@dtm we have a guy trying to run 32'off and one of his issues was doing this and then not getting the handle back to his hip. So we are

Minimizing the reach up and just allowing room for his hips to get under the handle. It can help if the hips and handle connect, but hurt if the handle doesn't come back down.

[DefectiveDave]

@Wish ,

I'm not actually trying to do the countery type move, I gave up on that long ago as I couldn't get it to work. However, it is the motivation for my initial 9:30 hip rotation. I'm essentially trying to eliminate the thought process and get countered before the turn-in, but you're right and it's obviously not working, haha. Starting that way makes it very difficult for me to be dynamic on the ski (most likely this leads to @matthewbrown 's observation) and I almost have to rely on the boat initiating my turn by pulling me inward. The original thought was that if I stayed countered and the boat initiated my turn, I would eventually just end up in the correct position open to the boat. However, it turns out it's maybe difficult to maintain the weight balance in that position.

 

So is the goal of the 11:00 rotation you speak of to get the handle to the outside hip? I think I know what you're saying now and I have an idea how to give it a shot next time I'm out. I'll just focus on getting the right hip and weight forward during the glide out, then I can initiate the turn-in by shifting mass towards the gates or 1-ball, whichever works best.

 

@matthewbrown ,

Thank you for the response, it is very pointed and helpful. I had started to suspect that I might need a bit (or a lot) more intensity in my gate turn-in. I had actually been working on it earlier that same day before I started the video. However, I had to totally change my gate setup from what we saw in the video (because I'm not very dynamic in that starting position) and then had difficulty loading way too much and way too early. It's difficult to say without video, but one of two things was happening:

 

1) I was trying to turn by dropping my @$$ into the water to initiate the edge change

2) I was trying to turn too late after I started to drift in

 

It could be a combination of both or perhaps the two are related. Next time I go out I'll increase intensity and take some more video. I have a feeling the fault tree will be slightly different, but anything to fix this problem. Thanks!

 

[DefectiveDave]

Oops, missed some comments while I was typing my latest response. I will review those later this evening. Thanks guys!

[Chef23]

You are going to be paralyzed with conflicting thoughts trying to turn in to the gates. I would to with what @matthewbrown recommended. He certainly knows more than I do about how to get down the course.

[Wish]

Yes 9:30 makes it tough if not impossible and to much of you has to break to the turn in for gate and as you put it..less dynamic. So in the vids above each skier is doing things a little different but the one thing that is constant is hips at 11:00 so to speak in the glide and no more and not much less. This is an awarness thing of where your hips are in relation to the direction of the ski in the glide which is 12:00. As said, your turn in is a 1.5 in intensity. The boat cannot be what turns you. But how do you make it an Andy 10?. What's the tool used? To say just go and be aggressive is hard to figure out sometimes. Hard to know what part should be leading the intensity. After a high up on boat, hips forward, tall balanced weight, and hips held at 11:00 in a non drift glide..which you already have some of that, in my opinion the hips to 1:00 for the turn in is what should lead the charge. And it is not complicated at all. The speed to which this charge is initiated is far more controllable if you are paying attention to and aware of your hip movement to 1:00 for the turn in. The faster you go with your hips from 11:00 to 1:00 the faster everything else will follow and fall into place for a stack and the faster you'll get into position before load comes. And in my opinion it can be done to fast. It's that hip rotation speed you will have to play with if everything in the glide is good. Moving to 1:00 and being aware of hips gives you a tool to get past the 1.5 intensity and you now have an answer to "how do I or what do I do to bring it to the Andy 10" course it's Andy so maybe shoot for a good 7 like the rest of us mortals.

[DefectiveDave]

@Chef23,

 

Haha, I hope not. I'm trying to internalize everything into just a few basic concepts (or even just one) I can work on one at a time to see what works. I think I might have been able to do that.

 

@Wish, @matthewbrown, @Chef23, @A_B, @bassfooter,

 

I think I'm started to form a picture of what to do here while I was at lunch. Using @Wish initial comment regarding rotation into the course to initiate the turn I think I have a way to satisfy a bunch of different suggestions at once.

 

Using the principle of conservation of angular momentum, a hip rotation towards the course to initiate the turn-in will give the ski a slight outbound angle (upper body rotates right, lower body rotates left). It also so happens that it seems easier to stay forward when rotating the hips this way from my land test 5 minutes ago. The ski will move outbound after the rotation while the skier falls inward, then the ski catches and starts to move under the rope. This is totally backwards from how I've been thinking about it this whole time, but it makes perfect sense theoretically (i.e. if I rotate outwards to initiate the turn as I've been doing then the ski immediately tries to go towards the course and leaves the upper body behind preventing one from making a high intensity turn which has been a problem of mine for some time). So if that theory is correct, then all I really need to do is initiate the turn by rotating in towards the course as @Wish was saying. Then I can adjust the intensity as @matthewbrown was saying by adjusting the hip rotation rate. Then it would be just a matter of adjusting my timing as @bassfooter was saying. In fact, I think it indirectly ties back to what most people were saying just based on the theoretical dynamics of that one motion.

 

After watching @gregy 's videos I definitely think that @Wish is on to something here. It's not that I didn't believe him before (he's a great skier after all), but I didn't really understand it on a physical level and it was very different from what others have said to me. Sometimes we each have to dig to understand a concept on our own terms.

 

I'm giddy with excitement to get a chance to try this now, both because I think there's a lot of potential and it's very different from anything else I've tried with my gates. Of course, I've felt this way before about theory to have it not quite work out, but I will know the next chance I get to practice!

[DefectiveDave]

@Wish,

 

It looks like you were solidifying your statement as I was typing my latest response. What you just said is pretty much exactly what I am thinking now and I think you're definitely onto something here. It's a very simple and actionable movement which has great potential. Thank you sir. I will be trying it out as soon as possible.

[Wish]

You're welcome. It does keep it simple if just executed. Becomes a little more complicated when spelled out as to the whys. But actionable part is indeed simple. I've worked with about 5 skiers this year on this and all have had great success do to the simplicity. Don't over think it.

Good luck.

 

[Jordan]

One hint....the turn in for the gates is still a turn...granted you have more time but the idea is to get into a strong pulling position and to generate enough speed through the gates to get you to one ball early enough and wide enough for a good turn.

[DefectiveDave]

@Wish,

 

I was able to try it out this evening and it does indeed perform as advertised. Granted, it certainly isn't automatic, but with time, practice, and fine tuning this could definitely be magic sauce. It felt like the ski really dug in and came around; it is a feeling to which I'm just not accustomed and I might have been overdoing it a bit (i.e. intensity from my perspective felt like maybe an 8, but on the GOAT's scale maybe a 3). Despite that I was even able to hook up nicely a few times and felt strong through the wakes with no risk of being pulled out.

 

Unfortunately I wasn't able to catch video. Only two of us out in the boat (the third cancelled) and no wakeye available. We've got nasty rain the rest of this week and I'm out next week on business, but I plan to take video ASAP. I'll repost here once I've done so for a more direct comparison with my previous gates. So after testing, I'm still stoked for the potential.

[A_B]

The Andy 10 comes from dropping your right hip and COM lower while keeping the handle pinned to your left hip with straight arms.

 

Get the 11-1 hip turn in right first then drop in more to the water and push your comfort level as you head into the first wake. Realize with this added edge roll and speed, you will be able and need to get off your "pull" and edge change sooner. Or you will be flying into one ball.

[DefectiveDave]

@A_B,

 

I'll definitely give it a try at some point in the future. I'll work on getting the 11-1 mechanism in place first, because there are clearly some timing and weight transfer issues to figure out. For example, I felt like it was hard to stay forward into the turn-in at higher intensities and I fell back on my ski a bit (well, maybe a lot). Also, sometimes I felt like I killed all my down-course speed and loaded too hard, too soon.

 

I have a quick follow up question:

 

When you say I will need to get off my pull and edge change sooner or risk flying into one ball, is this due to the increased speed or the increased load pulling the handle away from the body after passing centerline?

 

[A_B]

Without getting crazy detail, you need to go from a lean edge behind the boat to a turning edge while riding the momentum out to the buoy shortly after the second wake. If you are still pulling at this point, you have either not done enough before the gates or you will be going Mach 1 into the buoy. When your setup improves, your skiing rhythm will need to change in order to take advantage of it. Its a good change though..

[A_B]

Watch the TW video on how he loads before the wake, paying special attention to the edging of the ski, and how he rolls it over after the second wake onto a turn edge.

 

 

[DefectiveDave]

I believe I understand. However, I'll try putting it into my own words to see if I really have it.

 

So essentially if you can generate more speed before centerline, you need to adjust to account for that speed. I'm thinking of it as being similar to how you would adjust for a tailwind. If you approach it like a headwind pass then you will have too much speed, apex too late, and be forced to make an inefficient, fast turn at the ball. However, you need to make the smooth transition in order to stay connected (i.e. handle control) or else you can run down the lake (more parallel with the boat) and pick up a bunch of slack.

[ToddL]

The one thing that helps me the most to be stacked in my approach to 1 is to get stacked before I even lean outbound and keep it.

 

What I mean is stack (once really achieved) makes everything easier, and thus the stack is easier to maintain. When you feel calm, early, and confident; your stack is easier to maintain because you aren't doing something extra to try to catch back up.

 

Therefore, the most important thing is to be Pro-Skier Stacked before you even start to lean outbound for the gate setup. Then, work to hold that stack, during the outbound motion, during the glide, and during the turn in. This will put you on path for that calm, early, confident 1-ball.

 

Pro-Skier Stack is: Standing tall with 90% of your core/torso over your front foot. At least, that's how I feel it. You have to feel tall and you have to feel that your whole body is over the front foot. There is a lot of talk about hips forward which is correct, but I think it is easier to think torso forward.

 

I really like Horton's Ideas for stack and use them to describe this process for feeling/finding that perfect stack: (try this on the dock first)

Get into your ski position. You are probably further back and butt back than you realize (fig 1)

Stand tall, really tall. (fig 2)

Bend your front ankle while simultaneously straightening your back leg. If you did that right, you should feel like your torso is crazy forward almost out the front. (fig 3)

Now, without changing anything from the waist down, simply lean your shoulders slightly back until they are vertical again. (fig 4)

 

Once you feel this, you can compare it to what you previously thought felt like "stacked".

 

Now, on the water, as soon as you are up and stable, move to your starting position just to the left of the left wake and do the above process to get into "Pro Stack". Freeze.

Then, to move outbound, ONLY do these two things: Rotate your hips to the left (counter-clockwise) about 25 degrees and move your hips to the left as if to lead the rest of your body in the direction you want to go. Notice that you are NOT to lean or rear back against the boat. It is about driving a ski edge into the water. If done correctly, you will be wider, faster with less effort and still stacked.

As you rise up into the glide, re-assess your stack and fix any lost position. Think "rise up and forward".

If in a long glide, then keep hips slightly rotated away to maintain width.

Then, to turn in, rotate the hips clockwise and lead with them in the direction you want to go.

Again, it isn't about rearing back on the boat. It is about driving a ski edge into the water.

 

 

 

[Wish]

All good stuff and love the stick figures..already saved to camera roll. But @DefectiveDave try to keep it simple. One priece of the puzzle perfected at a time. One thing I have found is correcting one thing or improving one thing translates into automatic corrections of other issues you may be feeling and experiencing. Don't over think this. All good info above to keep in mind but impossible to think of all this stuff while skiing. If there's another element in all the above you like, make it into a one word command for that moment in the course. Kinda like; "11" ....... "1". and nothing else.

 

 

[ToddL]

I agree with @Wish. Mine simple cues are:

"up over front", "10", "2", "eyes up"

 

The first 3 are all related to getting the gate right. Once in the course it is simply "eyes up."

"up over front" could also be "Pro Stack"

 

BTW, "11" or in my case "10" refers to the clock position for the hips. 12 noon means straight down the lake (direction of boat travel). So, 11 or 10 refers to rotation counter-clockwise to the left, and 1 or 2 refers to the other direction.

 

Keep it simple. Have fun!

[ToddL]

Oh, and I am not an artist, so I went with stick figures... I read my initial words and realized that the only way this works is if I am demonstrating these maneuvers while describing them. So, stick figures were needed. Truth, I tried 3 times to draw them before I got it looking right...

[DefectiveDave]

@ToddL ,

Thanks for the great figures! I like the idea of trying to get stacked right behind the boat, makes it easier to get even wider. I actually did try something similar once down at Trophy Lakes last year. @adamhcaldwell told me to shift weight to my front foot and keep it there when carving out. I got about as far as position 3 in your diagram and then went for it. As soon as I started the ski really dug in like it was supposed to and I built load crazy fast, but then the handle kept getting further and further away and I crashed OTF into the shoreline. I haven't tried it since, haha. When I try again I'll need to get all the way to position 4.

 

 

@Wish , @ToddL ,

I definitely understand and will keep things simple. I find that if I'm constantly switching my priorities I never make any real progress. Last year I took video of my skiing almost every set and was always trying to fix the problem of the week. I actually lost 2 passes from the middle of the season to the end of the season, haha. There was an injury in there, but I also started losing fundamentals by trying to work on a new bloody thing every single day I went out.

 

This year I stopped video taping almost entirely and made the decision to focus on nothing but stack and handle control. Furthermore I see no reason to focus on anything at this point but the gates. If I can't be stacked and maintain handle control into one ball then I'm screwed throughout the rest of the course anyway. So far this approach has been working very well. I know it doesn't look great from the video, but it is a marked improvement from the beginning of the year.

 

Some days I do go out and just evaluate concepts when I'm not sure where to go next; that was where I was before starting this thread. However, I now know my focus for the next few weeks (or however long it takes). It is 3 sequential things after entering the glide which I think are manageable:

 

1) Obtain stack

2) Hips clocked outwards slightly to 10-11:00

3) Initiate turn by clocking hips to 1-2:00

 

I don't plan to consciously think about the rest of it at this point (maybe later once I've nailed the three above). My assumption is that the intensity and timing will come as I play around with it. I plan to just repeat constantly and hope that my body/lizard-brain make the proper adjustments.

[Texas6]

This is sound advice from @Wish and others. I've been over thinking my gates at 35 all summer. I run 2/3 of my 32's every set; some feel easy some are scrappy but most get run. But my one balls at 35 have been mostly bad. Every time I get a good one ball, I feel I have a good shot at running the pass....yet with many four balls and only a single five ball, all after half good one balls, I was getting frustrated. I was struggling with the hip movement on the turn in toward the gates. I'm high on the boat, my glide transition is smoothe, I'm tall and on the front foot at the turn in, still crummy one balls. Today, I went back to @Wishes advice and just turned my hips from 11 to 1, then progressively towards 2, and started stroking my 35 gates; emphasizing little movement except for the hips. PB of 6@35 no continuation....the pass was in the bag but I compressed out of 5 after telling myself "I'm going to run it"....frustrating but also gave major hope for me to the pass. Sometimes just a different way of telling yourself what to do makes all the difference in the world...don't overthink it...thanks @Wish

[DefectiveDave]

Awesome! Congrats @Texas6 . Stick with what worked next time and put 35 in the bag.

[Wish]

@Texas6 welcome :)

[DefectiveDave]

@Wish, @matthewbrown, @ToddL, @Texas6, @A_B, @Chef23,

 

It's been a while, but I finally got back out on the water and was able to take some video. I'm in NC, so this was the first skiable day I've had in a while. It turned out to be a really nice day and despite the long hiatus I actually skied decently. All day I really focused on my gates. My goals came directly from this thread and were to:

 

- get forward on the ski with hips at 10 o'clock before turning in

- move hips 10-2 or so with significant intensity

 

 

I felt really out of sync today, and none of my passes were smooth, but I got all the buoys I normally expect to get. So maybe my gates were better and giving me more margin for error. I felt fast through the gates for the most part, but looking back at the video I'm still drifting in and not getting far enough forward before the gate. Still, it looks and feels like an improvement to me.

 

Obviously from the videos the gates are only one of many problems. All comments are welcome!

[ToddL]

Can you try simply waiting 15 feet later before you start your pullout for the gates? In the video, you are gliding too long to maintain width. Plus a wise skier recently told me that as the line gets shorter, the ideal gate width goes up. Or rather, as the line gets shorter, you have to get higher up alongside the boat to reach the ideal gate width. The goal is to turn in under your own momentum and complete the turn before the boat is pulling on you, before there is load.

[DefectiveDave]

@ToddL,

 

Funny you should say that. I was actually trying that out on the water. The video above is from the 2nd set of the day, so I had made adjustments after viewing the video of the 1st set. I'd noted I was drifting in and so had delayed my pull-out time by about a boat length in comparison to the first set. It the video above I pull out about 40 ft before the pre-gates from my point of view.

 

However, I think my sub-conscience was wise to my plans and I most likely adjusted my intensity during the pullout without thinking about it. I felt like I was drifting in less when I was on the water, but looking back at the video that simply isn't the case.

 

What do you think of increasing the intensity/duration of the pull-out instead?

[A_B]

I start my pullout just as the boat is approaching the pre gates, so my lean probably actually gets going when the boat hits them. Kris Lapoint coached at my lake 30 years ago and said be in the same spot to start and pullout the same every time, then adjust when you go based on the results, and of course, head/tail conditions. So I would focus on starting based on what KL says and adjust later/earlier from there.

[ToddL]

That will work, too. I heard somewhere that a 3 second glide is about ideal. Some do less, some a little more. Any more than "4 alligators" and you are likely to drift in. The tricky thing is that you have achieve a speed faster than the boat in order to move up along side of it and hit your width and along-side mark. Then, while gliding slow to the point of matching it's speed at the time you initiate the turn, such that the turn is completed and you are in a stacked leaning position just before the boat's pull loads the handle. So, yeah, just that easy.

 

The cool thing is that you can just practice gates and , 2 ball shots then ease up and ride to the other end. Thus, you have more energy for doing more passes per set while figuring out gates. The other cool thing about just practicing gates is that you can give yourself permission to make major changes, like waiting 50 ft later or moving out for twice as long, etc. If you totally miss the gates late or something, no biggie. Take note and adjust. Sometimes we can be surprised by the positive results of a significant change.

 

The reality is that improvement by its very nature is a change in the intended direction. Unless we are willing to make bold changes, we cannot expect to uncover bold advances and improvements.