Gate Coaching

[lpskier]

Andy had (probably still has) back to back two ball courses on his lake. 55s, entry gate, one, two exit gate, 55s, entry gate, one two, exit gate, 55s on his lake. The purpose is to allow the skier to practice two starts each pass through the course. Brilliant idea.

[DefectiveDave]

Thanks for the comments so far guys.

 

I think I just made another observation which may be relevant. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I tried to keep the rope tight during the glide, and that much is true. However, looking at that video I can't help but notice there is some significant slack in the rope during the glide. It's not much, but it's enough to decrease or even eliminate the load of the boat as we match speeds.

 

I generally turn in when I "feel" that the time is right, which I gauge based on when the boat starts loading the handle. This in turn affects the habits that I build such as when I pull out and the duration/intensity of that pull out.

 

Could it be that I have too much slack in the rope during my glide which is throwing off my timing at the gates? If you look at the video, it really looks like I start my turn-in when the rope tightens every single time.

 

I currently feel that I keep around 5lbs of tension in the rope during the glide, but maybe trying to go for 15-20lbs might be helpful?

[Drago]

@DefectiveDave it could be you are WAY overthinking the gate. Do what @matthewbrown said way back.Match the speed of the boat and turn in as though you are at 2 ball. Adjust from there: if you are fading back in, pull out later. Can you honestly feel the difference between 5lbs and 15lbs??

[DefectiveDave]

@Drago,

 

I tend to way overthink everything, haha. When I ski a lot I can just relax and ski, but when my time on the water is so limited the mind wanders. Luckily none of this stuff is going through my head as I approach the gate or I would be screwed. I just pick something to try (generally one thing, two things max) and then go for it. I can evaluate the results after the fact.

[Chef23]

@DefectiveDave where in NC are you? I was in the Raleigh area this week but didn't have time to ski.

 

By the way I agree you are pulling out too early. You are getting plenty of width but you are giving it up. I would try to pull out when the nose of the boat hits the 55s. At the end of the day you want to be at the same speed as the boat when you turn in. The way you are doing things right now you slow down substantially that is why you give up width. This is killing you at 28 and even more at 32 off.

[DefectiveDave]

@Chef23 and @ToddL,

 

I ski on Lake Davidson (kind of a part of Lake Norman) and live in Mooresville, NC.

 

You're absolutely right, and so was @ToddL. I was digging deeper last night comparing videos of myself and the GOAT. I did some timing tests and realized that from the start of my pullout to passing through the gates was about 6.5 seconds @ 32 off. When I watched the videos of Mapple, his timing for 34.2 MPH @ 32 off from the pullout to the gates was about 5.5 seconds. This also lined up well with what @ToddL was saying about the maximum glide time being about 3 seconds. Nate the Great's timing from pullout to the gate was even less at around 5.25 seconds, but that's at 32off, 36 MPH with more drag. Just for fun I backed these numbers out to see where they were in relation to the 55's.

 

Skier Distance from Gates

Mapple: 50.16 ft/s * 5.50 seconds = 275.88 ft

Nate: 52.80 ft/s * 5.25 seconds = 277.20 ft

Me: 50.16 ft/s * 6.50 seconds = 326.04 ft

 

Front of Boat Distance from Pre-Gates

Mapple: 275.88 -43' of rope - 10 ft of boat - 55m *3.281 ft/m = 42.4 ft

Nate: 277.20 -43' of rope - 10 ft of boat - 55m *3.281 ft/m = 43.7 ft

Me: 326.04 -43' of rope - 10 ft of boat - 55m *3.281 ft/m = 92.6 ft

 

From my perspective behind the boat I was sure I was only about 40 ft from the pre-gates before I pulled out, but the numbers don't lie. I trust the math more than my own subjective assessment of distance.

 

I got the chance to ski today (but no video) and decided to delay my pullout by 1 alligator from where I normally would to put me near where Mapple was. I only got 4 shots at it before I had to call it a day (body just wasn't ready to be on the water again), but there was potential. I was definitely drifting in significantly less, but I'll have to develop a better sense of timing with the delayed pullout.

 

I'll take more video the next chance I get to combine the above concepts with a delayed gate pullout. So now there are 3 things:

 

1) Weight Forward, hips at 10 o'clock

2) Initiate turn with intensity by bringing hips from 10-2

3) Pull out later for gates

 

Thanks for the help everyone. I know it seems like I'm running in circles, but I feel like I'm learning a lot right now and making progress!

[matthewbrown]

yeah why complicate things, you know what you need to do, keep your width on the gate. just do that one thing, you can easily do it by pulling out as early as you do now, you just have to lean on the rope a little bit to stay out there...nothing wrong with that. once you get the feel of turning in for the gates from that wider point, then you can begin to adjust the ways in which you can make it easier to do so, ie. pulling out later, more progressive, etc. adjust one variable at a time.

 

[Marco]

I agree with @matthewbrown and @drago recommendations about keeping it simple, however since I rarely listen to good advice ;) lately I've been trying David Miller's gate timing, with good results. As the line shortens, you pull out later and turn in earlier. If you want to try it:

 

At 28, pull out when the boat is 1 boat length (20') before the 55's, and turn in when the nose of the boat is at the gate.

At 32, pull out when the boat is 1/2 a boat length from the 55's, and turn in when the boat is 1/2 boat length before the gates.

At 35 Pull out when the nose is at the gate (Miller goes 10' later), and turn in 1 boat length before the gate.

At 38, pull out when the stern passes the 55's and turn in 1-1/2 boat length before the nose hits the gate.

 

Kind of a lot to think about as you go up the line, but after a while it becomes 2nd nature. I adjust my pullout from what he does at 35 and 38; I don't pull out as late. The earlier turn in at shorter lines feels like it it softens the load and is easier to keep a tight line. Might not work for everyone, but I like the results when I do it right. YMMV

[DefectiveDave]

@matthewbrown and @Marco,

 

You're both absolutely correct. Keeping it simple is going to have to be my mantra going forward, haha. I've got enough to work on the rest of the season. On Friday, even though it was just the gate, I was having a lot of trouble keeping everything in my head. By focusing on everything, it's almost like I'm not able to focus on anything at all.

 

Still, I'm getting an idea what works during the gate and now I know what to look for myself when (or if) I make any further videos. Right now it's just time to practice, practice, practice on thing at a time.

 

Thanks guys!

[Marco]

@DefectiveDave - I love your comment about focusing on everything making it hard to focus on anything. That hits it on the head. When I ski, I typically focus on only 2 items. The first always has something to do with the gate (one thing about the gate, not 10) and the second is something I am trying to achieve in the course. Stick with the same 2 things until muscle memory kicks in, then move on from there.

[DefectiveDave]

@Marco, @Wish, @Chef23, @ToddL, @Drago, @A_B, @Texas6, @matthewbrown,

 

I've been a while since I posted here and it feels like it is time for a check up. I've been working about 80% on my gates since the last time I've posted to this thread and made some good progress. Most importantly, I've been able to internalize mostly everything I learned here to some extent. My 28-offs are more consistent and I'm starting to get deeper into 32-off now (practice PB is 4 balls but there's lots of scrapping).

 

However, I'm starting to bump up against the wall again and I'm not sure what is the most important thing I need to work on at this point. My gates still aren't where I want them to be so I've been trying to compare my gates against Terry Winter's. Here's a comparison pass at 28-off, 34-mph:

 

*I only got 5-balls, but this was the best 28-off video I had from today's session

 

It starts off pretty good. I appear to pull-out at the same time and for the same duration (this is just a coincidence). I would even guess that I might have a bit more speed in the glide based on the intensity, but that's where the favorable comparisons end.

 

I start to drift in before turn-in, but I don't think Terry does in this case (though it's hard to tell from his camera framing). Which to me is kind of odd given the intensity of our pullouts, but maybe I'm missing something here (wing angle maybe? mine is at 9 degrees per Rossi's Green Vapor settings).

 

Anyway, from the point of turn-in it's clear that he is in a much better stack within half a second. He's traveling faster by the first wake and his ski has started to move out in front of him for the transition. My ski is still behind me at this point and though I have intensity into the wakes, this makes it very difficult to maintain direction after the second wake because I am blocking the transition. After this point Terry blows me away through the course at every buoy, but that's a problem I'll work on next year, haha.

 

I'm initiating my turn-in using @Wish 10-2 method, which works great getting the ski pointed across course and I don't think I can do it with much more intensity. I've timed my pullout such that I still get relatively wide and I've made progress minimizing my drift back towards the boat.

 

Anyway, I get the sense that I'm still missing something critical in my gate turn-in that I just can't see. My observation from the video is that I'm tail turning, which is where I think the vast gap first begins to form. However, I cannot seem to prevent this from happening. Some of the things I've tried are:

 

- COM extremely forward before the turn-in

- Driving my COM forward during the turn-in

- Putting weight on the balls of my feet and trying to keep it there

- Straightening rear leg per @Horton

 

I'd very much appreciate any ideas or thoughts which might help me out. I've got maybe 3-4 more sessions this year and I'm hoping to put 32 down! Thanks ballers!

[ForrestGump]

Will Asher asked me why I was trying to keep my hips open so much. He told me to turn my left hip, point it to the gate, and go.

[gregy]

To me I think your still back a little. I think you problem starts as soon as you start the pull out. It looks like to me your falling back just a little and loading too much. Then when you release the ski as you go into the glide your back a little. You can see you get some slack in the glide. As a result you have to push your COM back forward. I'd say try to keep your COM forward from the beginning and keep it there. Try not to use as much upper body lean on the pull out, try to use COM movement (hip) to move out when you release keep just a slight bit of pressure outward to keep you going outward and not get slack at the start of glide. The T-gas video were they say it should be one fluid movement, yours lpoks like several individual movements.

 

I practicing the same thing and having the same problems right now. Every now and then it comes together for me and it makes things so much easier. I been experimenting using counting lately by counting 123 on the pullout then 123go for turning and adjust my pullout accordingly. My 123 probably is a little over a second.

[Ali]

Try starting at 2 ball. Ignore the gates and 1 ball, pull out before you get to boat guides for 1 ball. Try and backside 2 ball and then ski the rest of the course. It may take you a few attempts to get the timing right for the pull out. As you have the 2 ball for reference you will see if you start to drift in. You will miss 2 ball if you do.

 

Cheers

Ali

[TallSkinnyGuy]

Just a side comment here... Thanks for sharing the above video comparing you to Terry. I have watched that video of Terry so many times and dream about being able to ski that smoothly. You are a much better skier than I am, so it is quite sobering to watch that comparison and see how Terry is frequently almost to the first wake when you are still trying to finish your turn. Then he has already changed edges and is into his pre-turn when you are just getting to the first wake. That video is great for stopping the action and comparing body and ski positions in various stages. Very useful for me who is working on even more issues than you are.

[DefectiveDave]

@ShaneH,

 

It sounds like Asher was saying something similar to the hip rotation method @Wish brought up early. It's a nice way of thinking about it too. It sounds like it might encourage more of a COM shift towards the gate than just a 10-2 rotation (where 12 o'clock is facing directly down course). I'll have to try this way of thinking out on the water.

 

@gregy,

 

I'm glad you picked up on that. It's something I've been told, but I haven't been thinking about it at all lately. However, now that you mention I totally agree with what you are saying. Looking at Terry in the video, when he comes out of his glide he is in position and ready to go, no need for a quick hip rotation to get ready. It could be that my hip clock is what is causing me to lose the width so early; in fact I would say it is almost certainly a contributor if not the primary reason.

 

@Ali,

 

That's an great idea and something I can definitely use. In fact, if one is fast enough, they might even be able to do 2 practice gates in the same run by using 6 ball as well.

 

@TallSkinnyGuy,

 

It's definitely humbling. I felt like I had improved so much this year, and then seeing how effortlessly Terry blows me away is a reality check. I have so far left to go and so many things left to improve, lol. It's a good thing.

 

Still, when I think about it, at some point in the distant past Terry Winter had to have been near our respective skill levels. There is hope for us yet!

[gregy]

@DefectiveDave looking back at your other video. Huge improvement. Keep at it, I like your analytical approach to skiing. I've been wanting to go out on a public lake and free skiing and just work gates without the balls. Just do it over and over.

 

Right now for me the gates are the biggest think holding me back. You get the gates right, suddenly your wide and early. You get more angle out of the buoy. You have time to work on turning technique. You get it wrong, your narrow and fast into the buoy, rushed in the turns, no angle, loose speed, it all snowballs and your just chasing the boat.

[2tracmind]

Hi Dave, I am a big fan of the 10-11 to 1-2 oclock. As it relates to your comment :

"It could be that my hip clock is what is causing me to lose the width so early; in fact I would say it is almost certainly a contributor if not the primary reason."

I respectfully disagree, holding the hips point to 10 should maintain your width by keeping you on the left edge of the ski until your point to 2 oclock. Your drifting in more probably be the result on being more on the back foot and hips behind.

Good Luck

 

[DefectiveDave]

@2tracmind,

 

I totally agree when you say that holding the hips at 10 helps maintain the width. It appears that to a large degree the skier goes where the hips are pointed. Thanks for bringing up the 10-2 idea in the S-initiation thread, it's been very helpful to my skiing since @Wish first described it to me.

 

I probably should have elaborated a little more on my previous post. I don't think the hip clock itself is directly the cause (in fact I'm still sure it's part of the solution), but it's more of the way I initiate the hip clock. I actually free myself of the boat momentarily after the pullout because I need more rope to allow the outward hip rotation (otherwise there's too much load for me to do it effectively). I think I would be much better off it I was able to exit the pullout with the hip clock already initiated, which is very similar to what @gregy was saying. Anytime I'm free of the boat I think I'm loosing speed a little faster and drifting inward.

 

 

@gregy,

 

Thanks for the kind words. I think you just perfectly described my strategy as well, haha. I want to develop a good gate shot so that I can develop the skills for a proper transition, pre-turn, and turn into one-ball. It's hard to do that when you have bad body position going into the gates. Two-ball would be next and then hopefully the rest of the course would just be repeating the lessons learned at one and two ball.

 

Right now I'm afraid I'm just building bad habits because at no-point in the course am I ever in an an ideal body position.

[Texas6]

The 10 and 2 advice from @Wish is money in the bank. Simple and highly effective