Baller Glock Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 All, I am debating a new boat. Either a 2008ish ski nautique with ZO or 1999ish ski nautique with stargazer and z-box. I'm a 34mph guy and ski into 32 on occasion. I am hoping to get myself and my two kids deeper into this sport and start skiing a few tournaments every season. My long term goal is to qualify for nationals. So, should I save my money and grab an older boat with stargazer/z-box or spring for the newer boat? My right brain keeps telling me newer boat, but the left side says the older boat will probably be good enough. Its about a 15k difference, so how bad do I really need it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DanE Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 If you are considering the newer one, go for it. Latest versions ZO is a far better and more consistent pull than PP Zbox. I see PP Zbox as an option only if you're stuck with an older boat for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted October 20, 2015 Administrators Share Posted October 20, 2015 If you plan on skiing past 32 off and heading for nationals you need a ZO of some sort for sure Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Kelvin Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 ZO is much easier to drive. Just give it enough gas and ZO takes over. With PP/Stargazer/z-Box it is fairly easy for the driver to overshoot the pullup and screw up the pass. My neighbor just upgraded from a 2004 MC with z-box to a 2015 MC and this was one of his primary reasons for doing so. He doesn't get to ski that often and sometimes he comes out with a fairly inexperienced driver. It would take the driver 1/2 the set to figure out the sweet spot on the throttle. That's not an issue on ZO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Glock Posted October 20, 2015 Author Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 Yes, I do plan on getting past 32 off. My wife is also my driver, has experience with perfect pass pro, but might be a little off with what you describe from stargazer/z-box. We also have a fairly short set up at one end of our course which might make ZO a better pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jhughes Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 You're talking about a ~$15K difference here (assuming let's say the ZO boat is 30K and the older SN is ~$15K). That is a nontrivial amount of cash difference. Put it into college savings! As someone who skis both (personal boat has Z-box, club boat has ZO and is brand new every year) I can't really tell a huge difference and I'm getting into 32 off. I've been around 3 ball this year and I got around 2 in a tournament this fall. I've run clean 28's on both boats. I feel like my Z-box boat hangs with me through the course and stays "in sync" fairly well. As others have said you have to train people how to drive Z-box but I don't think telling them "hey, don't let it engage in the boat turn-around" is too tough. The driver needs to just trust the torque of the GT40 in the turn and let the throttle sit vs. blasting through the turn with ZO. Our setup is super short- we do a straight 180 with the boat into the course on both ends which makes Z-box tricky but certainly not rocket science. So, that's the $15K question. Zbox feels good behind the boat but is the driver education part worth the money. FWIW I feel like as long as I have my fundamentals down- nice and wide in the move-out and leveraged tall against the boat properly the speed control and site variables become less important. I've skied well on everything this year generally. EDIT, IMPORTANT: Zbox seems to really struggle with slower speeds, at least in my personal experience. If the family is skiing below 34mph regularly then ignore everything above and get ZO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller AKShortline Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 Go with the ZO boat you will never look back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DanE Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 @jhughes Your comment on slow speeds and Zbox just shows the inconsistency with it. Our 99 SN does very well with slower speeds, up until last year both me and my son skied @ 34 mph and I really had the boat dialed. Well, this season my son started skiing 36 mph and it was back to square 1 again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller markn Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 Why not buy an older GM powered 196, 2003 or 2004 and put in ZO? With your skiing goals, a ZO boat is what is needed. Several people on this forum have converted an older 196 to ZO, myself included. Excellent option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skislalom Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Zero off saved my relationship, I installed it into my 08 response LXi after a season on stargazer and z box, and wow what a difference, my wife loves it, it's easier to drive, same times and pull all the time, helps at tournaments having the same system, in my mind it is a no brainer, sure it's a bit more to out lay but worth it in my opinion, have you looked at lxi's you may be able to get a 07,08 a lot cheaper that the 196 and the conversion is around $3k usd to put zero off in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller TEL Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 ZO boat you will also get 343 Excalibur engine very reliable good for at lest 2000hrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Marco Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 I split my time between Z box on my 01 Malibu and my neighbors ZO on his 200, and my scores are about the same behind either. I don't personally feel much of a difference in the pull, at least at C-1. We have short setups with turn islands, and it works fine at 36 and 34, gets a little tricky at 32, and I wouldn't go slower without switching to PP Classic. If you are driving slower than 32, or don't care about spending $$, go with ZO, otherwise ZBox works just fine with a little driver's ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm in your shoes. Have a PP classic in my 2000 196 with GT40. Wake/driving are awesome and if I never skied a tourney I wouldn't care to upgrade. I ski in a good year 3-4 tourneys...so that few makes it even more of a liability given so little ZO exposure in a given year. It's probably a $15K boat and to get a '08 196 looking at $27K. Some '02's that are able to upgrade seems asking is around $20K and then I'm shoving $5K in there and end up at $25K...for that money may as well spring for the '08. I've got some good ZO tourney scores over the years...but think I could be more consistent with regular exposure/training. I'd also like to dodge the headwind/tailwind adjusts we are always making. Takes a pass or two in the wind to figure out its a 20 lb head/tail, for example, with perfect pass classic. As was mentioned, however, $15K isn't trivial dollars (to me anyway), and is a unique expenditure to me in our family that may forego others expenditures as a result. In your family at least the kids are involved and that expenditure is not just yours...and not simply replacing very, very good with excellent on the margin. A '97 and newer 196 is a killer boat...your situation a little different than mine I lean toward ZO for you and keep her well and for a good, long time. As for me...I may still pull the trigger in the spring and do the same...likely the last boat I would need to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BRY Posted October 20, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2015 Go ZO. It is a more consistent ride, easier on the driver and you won't be second guessing yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck_Dickey Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 @Glock Maybe you should consider how long you will want to keep either boat? The 1997 PP boat is nearly 20 years old Vs 7 year old ZO boat. PP w/Zbox works differently for nearly boat I've every boat I've skied, some are great and some are crap. ZO is the current and seems to be the foreseeable future system. Another thing to consider is resale value of the older PP boat once you do improve your skiing and want to make a move towards something even newer. Just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted October 20, 2015 Baller_ Share Posted October 20, 2015 @Glock, how many hours do you put on the boat actually in the course each year? If it is not a lot, you probably don't need ZO. If you are constantly racking up hours in a course, get a ZO boat. My personal opinion is that if you are training for tournaments and have some goals about your performance, you need ZO. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ralph Lee Posted October 21, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2015 Glock, if your serious about tournaments, go for the Zero off. Thanks to your wife's genes I foresee your kids receiving full scholarships, so no need to save for college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newb Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 ZO rocks - spend more now and dont be disappointed later - think in years to come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ RichardDoane Posted October 21, 2015 Baller_ Share Posted October 21, 2015 @glock - use your right brain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Zman Posted October 21, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2015 A couple comments that your driver - your wife - will love how much easier it is to drive makes the decision clear. Buy ZO boat, for your wife! Anniversary? Birthday? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Stejcraftben Posted October 21, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2015 Get zo. I just got a new response and was going to make do with the factory Malibu cruise but after using it once I bit the bullet and went zo. You won't look back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller robscholl-OF Posted October 21, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2015 Get ZO.....! You will not regret it. OF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GOODESkier Posted October 21, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2015 ZO is nice, but I train on a 196 with SG W/ZBox....... it is not a game changer if you know how to dial it in, and drive it. I have a real nice 2003 CC 196 loaded with ZBox......... make me an offer........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted October 21, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2015 @Glock ZO seems to make the most difference to guys around the 180-190 + lb, heavy puller type etc. Smaller guys it doesn't seem to effect as much. ZO used to kick my bottom at tournaments. I upgraded my boat to ZO and it made a world of difference. I've skied PPSG and it just didn't seem the same to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Glock Posted October 21, 2015 Author Baller Share Posted October 21, 2015 @GOODESkier , I sent you a PM. @thager , I am definitely a bigger guy and pull hard. I'm 6'3" and about 210 right now. Hoping to drop to 190ish before next season. ZO has kicked my butt so far as most of my skiing has been behind Perfect Pass Pro. I am definitely thinking that I need a ZO boat or at least one that I can upgrade to ZO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GOODESkier Posted October 22, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2015 Zbox is better than pro by far in getting you closer to the feel of ZO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller escmanaze Posted October 22, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2015 A lot of this depends on how much money you have (but obviously don't disclose that here.) Given the goals that you have for skiing, it certainly seems like you should go ZO. However, there are bigger goals in life than skiing goals. Make sure you have the bigger stuff covered first, and then, if you still have 30k left after covering the important things, then don't cheap out and ruin your performance, confidence, and experience at tournaments just because you had some T-Rex arms when buying the boat. Also, don't rule out the option of one of the older 196 models 2002 and newer that might have the excalibur in them, making the conversion to ZO much less expensive. There are multiple threads on here talking about different years and different options and what they need to work with ZO, but it's not the complete re-power that you would need with a GT-40. For example, here is a boat for $15k with an excalibur. Maybe $5k more gets it converted to ZO and you have found some middle ground between your two current options. http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Comp_Boat&postid=34448 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller liquid d Posted October 22, 2015 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2015 The cost of the boat is how much it depreciates during the time you own it. You can't take it with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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