The Way Forward | Marcus Brown

[Deep11]

 

To some degree I am with @than_bogan; currently what I do fits my personal circumstances perfectly. It would be good to have the loch at the foot of the garden and a 12 month season but that's about it.

With this sport, like so many of us, I am in "competition" each and every time I go out.

 

I am a ski nerd however and love watching the competitions on the webcasts. Pros, Dawgs, women, collegiate - it's all good and I will avidly analyse the "technique" and enjoy the "warm up passes" as much as the final passes.

 

It would be a great pity if, as is being voiced, that the Pro competitions die away from "lack of public interest" and thereby lack of necessary sponsorship - we all need heroes and its the athletes at the top who inspire.

 

It seems that what is needed is a bit of a "think tank" to effectively rebrand the sport to the kids and "extreme" masses.

Whilst the grass roots processes probably don't need to change (running long line can be extreme if you don't know what you're doing!) the top end pro comps are where things can and should be made much more exciting for a viewing audience, and to inspire participation.

The ideas so far are great:

1. "head to head" comps (like the big dawg) certainly makes things easier to understand on the shore line and does create more excitement ( need to work on the gate rule though )

2. Side by side courses would be great to watch but might be difficult to actually create with so many lakes being only one course wide.

 

The biggest problems I see are, that to the public:

1. a days competition is a long boring process with not much happening

2. Even with good commentary the critical stuff only really comes round every 10-15mins - it's really tough to keep people interested.

3. Yes, the current terminology is confusing to the uninitiated - (I don't even know what 15off means - is it 18 or 16m?)

4. There is not enough drama - a paradox is that the better we are at this sport the less exciting it can look - I love watching the first 3 "technique" passes but with the top skiers they are largely irrelevant and mean nothing to the public ( like a 100m sprinter jogging round the track before the big race - why?) it's blunt but with wipe outs, the viewing is more dramatic. The collegiate outages video shows this clearly.

 

So here's another idea for the "think tank":

How about a proper Pro "shoot out" competition:

1.The prelims would be the same as usual, but the "cut" for finals would be the starting line length.

2. Each competitor that makes the "cut" then enters the finals starting at that length. From last weeks open that would mean everyone starting at 10.75. (Could be done as a "head to head" sudden death for greater drama)

3. Each skier gets 3 attempts to see how far up the pass / or even next pass they get. (Why when you fall at a pass should it be game over? - I would love to see some of the pros having 3 attempts at 10.25, without having to worry about the passes before).

 

This would be a potentially shorter competition but with potential drama and excitement at every pass. It would be so much easier for the commentators to get the public behind it (and sponsors?)

 

 

On a separate note I've heard people being negative of the Big Dawg format before. I understand why, in terms of taking the focus away from the Pros etc but I think as a community this is something that we should be especially proud about - there are very few "extreme" or "power" sports where it is possible to continue to compete at a high level over the age of 40. Of course the sport, like any, will only grow with the kids coming through, but isn't it great that it's something they can do into middle age and beyond - at pretty much the same level? Who knows how long the Big Dawg interest will last now it's become mostly an "ex-pro" event, but I for one still aspire to such levels - just once!

 

As has been said on another thread, the cumulative stresses that the sport places on our bodies over the years has a byproduct in older skiers having much "younger" bodies than would be expected for their ages. If you don't "break" it really can be a "fountain of youth". Toning and conditioning without having to think about it - it's an amazing sport that we have and more people deserve to know about it, at all ages.

 

 

 

 

[Ghibli]

Thousands of kids and their families are "exposed" to slalom every year at Okeeheelee on their way to the soccer and baseball fields, not to mention the motorcross participants. Has ONE of those families ever taken up slalom skiing in the last thirty years? Price of admittance is any boat ever approved by the AWSA, way less than 15k for a good working example, plus 80 bucks a year and equipment. Given some of the vehicles they arrive in, money doesn't seem to be the problem. Just food for thought.

[skiinxs]

I completely agree that the main causal factor in the downard spiral of three event skiing is the introduction of private lakes. As Marcus so masterfully stated, there is no exposure for the younger prospects that in his days as a kid, and my days as a kid quite a bit earlier. I shared his feelings of amazement as a kid the first time I saw a good open water slalom skier and later a good course skier. That lit a fire under me which still drives me to this day. The causes of the movement to private lakes also need to noted. I can remember as a kid learning to ski on Table Rock Lake. Later learning to slalom ski, and even later learning to ski on a trick ski. At that time (going way back to the 60's) skiing was the main towed watersport and you would see skiers in the coves and even skiing down the main channel. Flash forward to a few years ago, the last time I was at that lake. I was amazed that every boat dock I saw was full of boats and almost each boat had a big tube in it. As I looked down the main channel as far as I could see and in almost every cove there were multiple boats, most 24' or larger, with their noses pointed at the sky, endless going in circles pulling tubes creaiting non-stop very large rollers in all directions. The tubing popularity is part of what I consider the "dumbing down of America". Where the majoity used to do an activity that required some skill and had a potential for goals and growtn/improvement, now we have a large percentage of the population that has the skill of being able to lay down and ride a tube. Unfortunatly this activity greatly hinders activities for those that want to ski, or do other towed watersports. Some of these other towed watersports also reduce conditions to being unskiable, but at leaast they are doing something that takes some skill and has a path for goals and improvement. I believe those are the factors that have caused many to move to private lakes. The vast majority of the public thinks skiing is dead. We know it isn't dead, it has just moved out of sight. Now the kids, possibly the tubers, see wakeboarding and wake surfing and many will gravitate in that direction if they have any ambition to do anything other than lay on a tube.

 

I am part of the problem, as I haven't skied or had my boats anywhere other than private ski lakes for years. I also like to think I am part of the solution, as I have spent a gread deal of time over the last few years dragging my boats to collegiate tournaments, as well as spending many hours driving and helping out at those tournaments. I have also remained in contact with many of the collegiate skiers after they finish school, regurlarly pulling many at my lake. There is no doubt that the kids are the future of the sport. The CanAm that is held at our lake showcases some of the great talent that exists in the kids, many of whom have gone on to become world class and even world champion skiers. How to get young demographic exposed so they get that internal fire and decide to themselves "I want to do that" has become very challeling due to the water conditions on public lakes.

 

In all of the years I have been a spectator, then skier, then helper, the most fun I have ever had at a tournament was this summer at the first tournament I personally envisioned and held at our lake. It was the kids that made it fun. On the final round of jump the kids had worked themselves up into a excited mob as they all started hitting PB's. Each kid knew that this was the day to get it done. Conditions were perfect. Everyone was jumping great. As I dropped each jumper at the starting dock I let them know how many letters I had to crank them up on the second and third jumps. Then the distancee came in over the radio and all started screaming again as it was yet another PB. The next jumper KNEW he was also going to PB. I have never seen so much adrenaline in a water ski tournament. Once again this was the most fun I have ever had with anything related to skiing, and it was all about the kids! They are the future.

 

http://skilodivineyards.com/

 

 

[aupatking]

I'm ripping off @horton, and I'm not meaning to beat up on your list whatsoever, I just think in linear list, so I'm using yours as my blueprint. And adding my worthless thoughts.

 

1 Move from public to private water - By far the biggest problem. Older people clap when I ski by them on the river. On more than one occasion I've had people in their 60's and 70's stop and tell me "it's so nice to see someone really slalom skiing on the river again". It's not that we've lost our kids to computer games, we've lost by not being on the radar at all. No pun intended.

 

2 Zero Off - really is temporary, but is a symptom. As soon as ZO is widely available on boats, tournaments will require something else no one has.

 

3 Creation of USAWS - less focus on AWSA - I don't know that either has helped. The whole sport has been mismanaged. We do know that. If we're going to have a governing body, they're gonna need to put their teeth in the manufacturers on some things. (See the boat prices) Also, if I want to start a club, or put a course on public water, all I should have to do is a google search, or look it up on USAWS. There should be easy lists of what you need and who, at our governing body will be happy to help. I have a slightly legal course and a total sham of a club right now. I'd prefer for both to be above board and on everyone's radar. I fought for a year to get it all done and just decided to quit screwing with it and ski.

 

4 The economy - maybe

 

5 The price of boats (see Zero Off) - Entry level Tahoe $24,500 Entry Level Carbon Pro (least expensive tournament boat) $72,000 (both are off simple base price searches, may be incorrect, but the idea is clear. Actually the CP had some ephemeral "extra savings" bringing it to $58,700). Still either is way more than double, damn near triple. There should be an affordable, tournament rated (by USAWS) boat. "Affordable" is not a made up word we can assign to $72,000 boats. That's crap.

 

6 All efforts to get water skiing into the Olympics - Does nobody no good. If you want funding, make money doing what you do, not through subsidies.

 

7 Evolution of western culture to a more tech oriented society - True, but we are still out there playing in boats on the water, in record numbers. More kids are riding tubes than ever before like @skiinxs said. We just have to get them on skis, and aspiring to ski like the grown ups (and pros). The walls of spray thrown up on the river is what got me hooked as a really small kid.

 

8 Fracturing of print and broadcast media - I do remember Waterski Magazine being huge when i was a kid. I read every word, the ads too. I had to hunt it down to subscribe last year. I actually thought it was totally out of print and only in digital media. I email Netflix fairly often asking for a Ski/Surf/Skate/Wake/Whatever you call it Film type genre.

 

9 Fracturing of extreme sports (Wakeboarding / wake surf / other) - Jump is cooler than all of them. That means nothing here, just saying. I've said it for years, wakeboard is the new Trick skiing. We need to hold non-traditional 3 event tournaments. Slalom, Trick, and Wakeboard. Wouldn't need a private site with a jump.

 

10 Loss of a pro tour (result of some of above) - A result of all of the above. it hurts to not know who your hero are. I knew Andy Mapple (not literally). Waterski Magazine was way less than we have now. I can follow Regina, Freddy, and T-Gas on instagram (I do) and twitter (I don't) and Facebook, and hear too. That never existed for us as kids, but it doesn't come looking for us. We really have to search it out.

 

When I came back to skiing 3 years ago, after a 20 year hiatus, I didn't know who Goode, Radar, or D3 were. I bought an A2, because i loved my early 90's Extreme. HO had to still be making good stuff, right? I had to really dig around to find anything. If it wasn't for BOS, there'd be basically no Center to my Universe. (I'm happy my wife does not read this).

[Broussard]

Disagree on the jumping part @aupatking in my opinion jump is much easier for the general public to understand than slalom. Water ski jumping has the potential to bring back the sport because of the wow-factor.

[gregy]

As a kid (70s and 80s) we tubed behind the boat some mostly for guest, we also took our surf board, kneeboarded, anything for fun. My family spent nearly every weekend during the summer on the lake. When we were tired we'd go anchor and swim, fish eat lunch. We were up early and skied before the crowds arrived. Then out came the other toys. Maybe it is the idiolizing of the pros. I had posters of the Bob and Chris Lapointe I dreamed of being like them. Made my parents take me to any pro events that came to town. My family went to Disney in Florida, I insisted we had to go to cypress gardens while we were there.

 

The lakes around here are much more crowded than back then. I dont think the cost of boats is a stopping it, Hell the cost of some of the pontoons is more than a ski boat. Then theres the 100k plus cigarette boats all over the lake. Not sure what the answer is. I find myself being selfish like @Than_Bogan says it fits me just fine. But then I really hate to see it fade away.

 

All the talk here about this and that are we missing the big picture? "Dumbing of America"? Maybe we a freddie Krueger video game. That might reach the kids. I just read an article on kids going over to fight in the middle east so they can live out Call of Duty.

[swc5150]

Honestly, one major factor for roping me in as a young kid was the boat itself. I remember vividly seeing my first MC pulling a skier throwing up walls. The visual and the sound of that motor brought chills down my spine. I have no idea how this would translate in 2015 for kids? 80's towboats were radically different from the average runabout. Now every boat has a tower, so I don't know what would stand out for a kid?

[unksskis]

The focus on becoming an Olympic sport is what has helped lead skiing to this current situation, it is more than time to give up. Focus on what is best for the sport and it's grassroots, the Olympics will come if they're interested, they've already bent rules and expedited sports in like slopestyle snowboarding and big air, both of which only had to have an international competitive tour.

[gregy]

The Olympics now has to compete against the X-games. I could see jumping or ski fly in the X-Games.

[Fam-man]

In my area the public lakes (all I know) are very busy with towed water sports especially at peak season and times. June, July and August from noon until 5 it's a battle ground on the water. This congestion and the conditions it generates along with skill required really drives what people are doing on the water.

 

Tubing - anyone can tube with any water conditions

Surf - most people can surf and the boat literally makes the conditions for the rider

Wakeboard - many can wakeboard and the boat influences conditions to a degree

Slalom - Some can slalom and it is very dependent on conditions.

 

Since most people are on these lakes from noon until 5 tubing/ surfing and wakeboarding are the leading activities because the conditions either have a lessened impact or even enhance the experience such at tubing. This also means that these activities are what's being seen by spectators which fosters the dreams of the little kids.

 

I only have access to public waters and to do the skiing I like with reasonable conditions I do it away from peak times, in a cove or at the back part of the lake when and where the water is quiet. As a result others don't really see what's going on and interest in slalom isn't generated.

 

What we do now is what gets passed onto our kids, I've had the experience of teaching kids to ski and a wake generating boat goes by and the ensuing rollers totally swamps the kid. I've personally seen that experience turn kids off and send them back to the tube.

 

I don't have an answer to generate interest with the public and return things to the glory days but it's not as simple as just going out to the public lake and ripping a few turns. I'm working with a few others to start a ski club at one of the lakes we frequent, I have no illusions this will turn the tide but maybe it will spark an interest in a few others.

[Fam-man]

I've been through the discussion a couple times and maybe missed an explanation but how did the push to be an Olympic sport damage waterskiing?

[lcgordon]

@Fam-man i was wondering that too

[Chef23]

I think the push to be an Olympic sport caused a reorganization in the national water skiing organization and took resources away from traditional efforts in the US.

[Horton]

@Chef23 that is more or less what happened

[aupatking]

@Broussard I said jump is cooler than all of them. I was just saying that on a public site, a tournament could be more easily held without it. Logistics of moving a ramp, and crazy insurance. Jump may have found it's final resting home in private lakes due to sue happy litigation and insurance.

I've said it before, for crowd involvement, if we're going to stick with 3 events, it would be Wakeboard, Jump, and Slalom. Scoring for Wake is hard to understand, based on 98% of people not knowing the difference in tricks, but that number is 99.99% when we talk about trick skiing. I remember my first Master in 91, everyone took off for lunch when it was time for trick. I was in love with Tawn or Britt, not sure which now, so they were my only interest in the world of trick skiing. Now I'm in love with Regina but will be on the slalom course tomorrow morning with or without her (without).

[eleeski]

In theory, Olympics for waterskiing should be great. I don't know any of the details but it was a demonstration sport in 1976 (? @Edbrazil ). Ricky McCormick swept everything in a show of US dominance. Needless to say, the sport was rejected - not giving them muricans more golds. AWSA took it hard and decided to make the sport tighter - more Olympic worthy.

 

Rules and interpretation were much stricter. Non skiing judges worked the tournaments in a chase for seniority and who could be the best (strictest) judge. The sport was big then but not as much fun.

 

Too many cut gates on the opener (not Nate gates which are tough to call but gates the skiers felt were fine), ridiculous trick scoring interpretations (you can't attack the wake for a WO at a 30 degree angle?), unyielding running orders, kids standing up two nice passes and scoring zero (I wonder why he and his family don't ski anymore) and a generally hostile attitude towards the skiers was side effect. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but there was a time that the sport was very unfriendly to the rank and file skiers.

 

The push for the Olympics faded and tournaments were run by skiers whose intent was to make the tournament happen, not to improve their judging status. Almost all the judges in every tournament I skied this year were skiers in that tournament. Most college tournaments have an alumni division so the judges can get wet too. The entire feel of tournament skiing has changed to a more participatory and fun focus.

 

Were the Olympics to blame? Possibly coincidence. But I'm not excited about going back to the days that shrunk the sport through a focus on the strict interpretation of the rule book.

 

I don't have answers to the current numbers decline. I see a healthy collegiate base. The junior developments are generating interested kids. Tournaments are fun - better stay for the Saturday feast! But the headquarters numbers don't lie. And I didn't have enough guys to ski against at Nationals.

 

Marcus's concerns about us being too hidden are probably at the root of the problem. Make everyone ski a public tournament or face a 12 buoy penalty in the rankings? Does San Diego Fiesta island count as public water? My lakes are the problem. But I just pulled a local high school student for his first time skiing today - maybe we just need to outreach more.

 

But the Olympics are a long way from building a base.

 

Eric

[jipster43]

People have more options now and less disposable income. American wages haven't increased since the early eighties. Give folks more money and the sport will grow. Pretty simple.

[EFW]

Isn't it funny how back injury forces you to take a step back and re-evaluate? (That's about as funny as $50,000 ski boats and $2000 skis.) Personal injury tends to do that for some strange reason. That was well written. Very good.

Geez guys I'm a little confused. You mean that some of you actually have a problem with $50000 ski boats. That's shocking. You do realize that with the "trickle down" theory that the more money you put in corporate America's pockets mean higher wages for us right? Please let all of us get behind corporate America again. They feel our pain!. Bend over so they can give us another feel good injection.

NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE UNTIL YOU STAND UP IN UNISON AND CHANGE THE STATUS QUO.

Every once in a while a revolution is a good thing.

Quit letting the corporations run the show. Whether it be the nation or whether it be water skiing. Quit letting corporations dictate because they see dollar signs.

[eleeski]

@EFW ???? What corporation? What dollar signs? You are missing something seriously, this sport is about fun.

 

The corporations providing us with skis and boats are run by passionate skiers. I don't see massive profits. "If you want to make a small fortune in waterskiing, start with a large one."

 

The products we have forced upon us by these corporations are quality products. A new ski gives you a shot at a PB. ZO is really a superior speed control. Even PP is fairly expensive but an absolute minimum for any skier with any tournament aspirations. Fuel injected boats with engineered wakes give us rides that are smoother, more reliable, burn less gas, pollute less and are substantially better to ski behind. And private lakes offer water that is much better and safer than public water.

 

None of this comes cheap. But waterskiing is not an elitist sport. Firefighters, police and teachers - normal workers - make up a huge percentage of my skiing friends. (Given the job security, benefits and pensions maybe they are the elite - but that's another issue.) Most people tow their fancy boats with a vehicle that costs nearly as much as the boat. The cable TV bill is more than a ski lake membership. And the health insurance premiums (to get those back injuries treated) are a huge bite of disposable income - and growing at a much faster rate than skiing expenses.

 

Cost is a real factor keeping people out of the sport. But it's not the overriding factor. We need to encourage people to participate because it's fun and fulfilling.

 

Eric

[EFW]

@eleeski What corporations? Stop you're killing me. Some of your own points prove my points.

Eric you are a funny guy. I just can't get bogged down in these conversations. I like you you're cool.

How can I not like a guy with Walt's iconic symbol for his avatar?

Hey maybe that's the way forward. Let's just have Walt Disney start running water sking. That has got to appeal to the masses. Well Eric it's almost noon here in Buffalo New York and I think it's time to crack open another cold one. Water skiing what would I do without you guys?

 

 

[Broussard]

@EFW Where are these $50,000 ski boats?

[lcarnes]

I’ve read this thread with great interest, partially because for the last two years, I was part of a team that produced a Pro-Am tournament that had over 1,000 attendees each year. We are all coming from our own experience, so I will give my viewpoint. I’m a woman that got addicted to skiing in my mid-40’s. Once the sport got ahold of me, it has not let go, and as a result, I have bought 3 boats, 7 skis, countless ski jackets, gloves, ropes, handles, dozens of bathing suits, hundreds of coached ski sets and a ski lake in the last 10 years. That kind of spending should prop up a sport! I’ve also gotten more fit in those 10 years than I ever was before, even in my 20’s.

 

What has puzzled me from the beginning is this question: How can one of the most addicting sports on the planet have such a hard time attracting new people? And where are the women? It seems to me that if you get the moms, you get the world. Never did the dad say “no, let’s not get that boat.” If the mom wants it, the family will have it. In fact, one of the boat sponsors sold a boat at our event this year. Who wanted it? You guessed it. It was the mom that drove the sale…the dad just did the negotiating.

 

What I learned in producing this tournament is that we ALL need to understand what is attractive about our sport, how people first get interested, and what are the best pathways in for someone to get started. If we are to truly grow this sport, we need to understand how to get the thousands of people who are on the periphery addicted like the rest of us. I’m not sure what the answer is…I do know that we had several new-to-tournament skiers for our event and April Coble’s women’s week (now weeks) brought a lot of new women into the sport, many of whom would have stayed on the sidelines if it weren’t for a place to learn while being encouraged. They come to those weeks for the camaraderie and the fitness.

 

The tradeoff for creating such fitness is that the sport is hard to learn and even harder to master. It’s tough enough to learn how to get up on a slalom ski and dang near impossible after a surf or wake boat just went by. Trying to cut through the wake, reach and carve a turn on that kind of water? For a beginner, it’s rarely gonna happen, especially if they are learning behind a non-ski boat. Even when we have great conditions, we are worn out by the time we have slightly advanced our learning on how to do something new. And another tradeoff is that the more people we attract, the more we have to share the water. I will admit my frustration after getting a number of women hooked on our public lake and them taking up all the good ski time.

 

In doing our event, showing the sponsors a payoff was difficult. Yes, we could promise exposure to lots of people. But how many would be buyers? And when would they buy? At this event, or months or years down the road? The math has to work, or they won’t invest. The target audience has to be there or they are wasting their money. The question is, who is the target audience and how do we attract them to skiing? Should we be marketing to the bored people in the gyms that want a more fun way to stay fit? Should we be targeting women in their 40's like me? Should we be showing up at Cross Fit events or triathlons inviting already really fit people to ski? What will advance the exposure of the sport to people who might be interested?

 

We definitely advanced the exposure of the sport with our event. Our community and the neighboring cities showed up. The pros showed up, and were able to perform at high levels on a full course. (I personally hate that the pros have to be willing to compromise to substandard conditions to get exposure. The NFL doesn’t do that and our athletes deserve better.) However, it’s too time-consuming and expensive to privately fund these things, and it’s hard, if not impossible for the meaningful sponsors to justify spending meaningful dollars without a clear payoff. Here’s what I do know. The sport won’t grow without new blood. The question is how to get there.

 

[DmaxJC_ski]

Like most of you are, I am a huge advocate for water skiing, since I was a kid, and from my POV especially here in Canada (Alberta) there is a huge lack of education about the sport. when I talk about "oh I went for a ski last night" in the coffee room where I work, most of the guys think about a guy out on a couple planks goofing off on the lake ( which there is absolutely nothing wrong with ) but have no clue as to what it is I love to do, you can try and explain, show some video but like @MarcusBrown said its not until I take one of them with me to witness it live/first hand that they go holy f that's intense! The sport is way more diverse then people realize.

 

Being from the north our time is limited, space is limited and yes I have too been spoiled to the point where I almost don't care to ski if it's not on a private lake where conditions are perfect, but it doesn't advocate the sport, doesn't give it the exposure it deserves. I'm no all star but I do take pride in my skiing and when I do get a set in on the public lake where I have a course set up there is almost always an audience, followed by questions and interest.

 

I'm constantly on the sports broadcasters here on social media or what have you, and never even a flutter of a response, for example the pan am games, right in J Mac and Whitneys back yard, did they show the finals? Hell no! We got to watch Brazil vs Argentina in men's basketball.... Two of the world best, from the host country and....... Pathetic. Again I think part of the problem is the lack of education about the sport, how do you report on something that you know nothing about.

 

I bet even if someone were to throw out a hoax of " enter name here" being the first millionaire water skier out there there might all of the sudden be a bit more interest....