Any initial impressions of 2016 200 5.3 DI?

[bkreis]

personally, I really like the single puck/software, it's different, but all changes are.

[GOODESkier]

@Broussard as good of an answer as on any forum asking anyone. Half the stuff on here is BS anyways........... Take it all in, process it, and take home what matters to me.

[Horton]

@bkreis Change is BAD. If you scrape up enough cash to buy a boat that the equivalent of what you get in a tournament and then the next year the tournament boats are all different it is generally discouraging.

 

The first few years of ZO a lot of skiers quit skiing tournaments because the boat they owned felt nothing like the boats they got in tournaments. I do not believe that is about to happen again but if it ever does that is pretty much the last straw for a lot of skiers.

[ahopkinsTXi]

@Horton good point. I would be pretty bummed if my 13 TXi felt completely different than the 16's coming out. Replacing boats every year isn't an option for us. Curious to continue hearing the reviews on the new 5.3 and new ZO system, especially on how it is going to effect the manufactures that aren't using the new 5.3. Or are they all now, I don't think so right?

[Horton]

@ahopkinsTXi I am moderately confident that your 13 will be a fine training boat far into the future. This is just one of those subjects that we all need to stay on top of. Just the suggestion that we are looking at a big change gets my blood boiling.

[santangelo]

Change is inevitable. The reasons for the puck change have been discussed and was necessary.

 

Software is complex. The more it's used and feedback provided, the better it gets.

 

Will Bush and Paul Crawford are awesome. Spent time on the phone with them yesterday and have a new head unit to test on the way.

 

The end of the world will wait for another day.

[ahopkinsTXi]

Haha I wasn't taking it as the end of the world, it would just be a bit of a bummer. I would still ski just as much and still care just as much. Would just have to adapt and at my level it could be a bit more difficult to adapt as I am finally starting to consistently run 15 and deep into 22 at 36mph for the first time in my life. So, it might be a bigger bummer.

[eleeski]

Welcome to the tricker's world. Our fancy boat from a couple years ago (which isn't paid off yet) is much better and feels nothing like the new boat.

 

At least a software fix is possible for slalom. I'm waiting for the boat companies to adopt my trick fix.

 

Eric

[NateSmith43]

This is a first for me commenting on something but what the heck. I ski with most of you guys anyways. Most people (including myself) typically are scared of change. Something that all of us have gotten so accustomed over the last 8 years is suddenly changing. But that is how the world works. To improve you can't be afraid of change. What most don't know is the reasoning behind the change. This is a change all across the board. Not just for one or two boat companies. What we all have been used to over the last several years is no longer available anymore. There are many great reasons behind the switch. More reliable, less failures, more accurate, and made in house and not purchased from Garmin. Those are all huge positives. What the tough part now is trying to get the same feeling behind the boat that we have been used to. This is all can be done with software changes and not hardware. So I applaud the companies that have chosen to start production with this new ECI single puck on their boat (You may know now why some chose not to make the switch this year.) Now when you purchase a boat you have the latest hardware that can be updated to the most recent changes all with a simple file update to the ZO instead of having the old pucks on your new boat knowing that you have hardware of the past that is no longer in existence.

 

Here are my first experiences with the new engines and the new single ECI puck.

Masters 2015 - scores in to 41 off at Robin lake which is a very tough place to ski.

US Open 2015 - Highest prelim cut in the history of the sport. Needed 4@41 to be safe.

Okeeheelee Oct. 31st - I ran just inside 1 ball @43Off behind the 6.2 and behind the 5.3 i started at 39 off and came back and got 5@41. I feel pretty content with the way that I have skied with it in the 3 tournaments I have gotten the chance to ski.

 

Is it different? Yes. It is. We got used to Perfect Pass from the hand driving days. We got used to Zero Off from the Perfect Pass days. Somehow I think this is that same bump in the road that we will all get over. The good news is that any changes made to this day forward are a simple software fix and is easily uploaded to your boat.

 

In my honest opinion I do not believe that the engines are to blame in any way. It's just the latest technology with very similar HP ratings as last years motors. The boats are still turning the same RPM's with the same exact props. The single puck is a big jump and change for sure. I would be lying if I said I can not feel a difference. For those of you who think I am just speaking on behalf of Nautique then you don't know me well enough to know that I will speak the honest truth about how something feels. Good or bad.

 

As for the complaining @jrs , Are skiers EVER completely satisfied and happy?? I know I certainly have nothing to complain about being a part of the largest and most winning ski team in the industry.

 

Hope some of this info helps clear up a little bit of this. Things will get better. Remember one of the main guys who was behind all this is no longer with us anymore. It is a huge step to take and huge shoes to fill to take that spot and continue on what was started with this whole puck change. There are a lot of people working together to figure things out. I wouldn't be too scared of the change you guys......

 

Nate Smith

 

[slow]

Well said

[rockdog]

@NateSmith43 I think (hope) we would all agree the reasons behind the engine change and pucks are legitimate and necessary, it's just this initial annoyance that we all have to make adjustments again. Particularly so for those of us who are already behind the 8 ball with older boats and PP etc.

 

Given change generally equates to cost increase, it's all the more bloody frustrating and that new boat is even further away than it already was.

[NateSmith43]

@rockdog Definitely agree with you about prices and change equalling a price increase. Unfortunately making those kind of decisions are above my pay grade.......

 

As far as the annoyance of making adjustments i can understand that as well. It is different for me as well but I have gotten some more time with the new system over the last week and it has been feeling better and better every day. I know there are a handful of guys trying to improve it every day. As I have been in on some of these conversations I can definitely say it is not as easy as it sounds to make the boat do what you want it to do.

[BRY]

Hmmm, well I have been fortunate to have 12 sets behind the 5.3. 6 of those in tournaments, 3 sites, 2 different boats. I had several 4.5@35 and several 2@38, stock scores for me of which I have way too many. So no impact on my scores at all, I actually liked the pull. EXACTLY the same as a 5.7 or 6.0? No, but very very similar to me, sorta slots right in between. I run the same setting. Going from Nautique to MC to Malibu all seem like much bigger changes (CP and Nautique are similar to me). I won't complain about any of them as they are so good and so close the driver seems to be a bigger deal than which boat. My direct experience, not what I have "heard". At the 3 tournaments I was at didn't hear anyone complaining, at least not about the boat...

Haven't skied Darin M's boat yet but it's just down the lake. Maybe I can get ride from him, just for testing purposes of course.

[rockdog]

Good on you @NateSmith43 for opening yourself up on a forum such as this, I can imagine you probably thought twice about it!

[bkreis]

@Horton change is all how we handle it..carbon changed skis, cord/Caldwell are dramatically changed shapes of skis, scores in the pro ranks are crazy high based on what we used to perceive as impossible, for myself as a skier for 16 years and coming up on 47 years young quickly, the evolution of our sport has been great less the reasons for lack of pro tour, which seem to slowly making a comeback, thanks to all that are passionate enough to support it.

I do agree the expense is too much, and has risen regardless of the economy, again it's our choice how we handle it. thanks for reading my ramblings.

 

[swc5150]

I'm honored that Nate's first post was on my thread:) Looking forward to skiing a 5.3 for myself now.

[Horton]

@bkreis change is fine until you expect skiers to drop tens of thousands of dollars to react to it. I realize that I over reacted yesterday but you have to realize that when we went from PP to ZO we drove a lot of skiers out of the sport. ZO is arguably better but I would happily go back to PP IF we could regain the skiers who quit because they could no longer compete.

[jhughes]

@Horton exactly. Skiing change we can handle and I have no problem with it. Economics are another story. Imagine if you had just ponied up to FINALLY get a ZO boat this year, whether it was brand new, a promo, or a 07/08+ ZO boat (and paid a premium for that boat because it had ZO, you better believe it) or re-powered- only to discover that once again you got zinged by a fundamental hardware change. I'd be flipping out if I made that kind of boat investement this year.

 

I remember in 2006 I bought our 2000 SN w/PP (at a premium, it was big bucks because at that time TSC1 was still a very hot hull) and I was so happy about finally having a PP boat. I justified it with the old "this is the last boat I'll ever have to buy" phrase- then a year later ZO was introduced (2007)! I had 1 season of my boat having the most relevant cruise system!

[swc5150]

Also assuming this will not help the promo guys trying to move out of their 2015 (and some 2014) boats.

[ALPJr]

Maybe we're over thinking this... Not a problem for elite skiers, individuals and clubs that can afford the upgrade. Other skiers will train with what they have the try the new boats and systems at tourneys, and maybe upgrade when they can afford to. Sounds like progressing the sport, and I don't think this will chase people away.

[bishop8950]

We are not talking about buying new boats this time around. We are at most talking about upgrading our existing ZO systems to the latest and greatest. Cost would be a new puck and then getting your head unit re-flashed. If further refinement is done on the new system (I believe underway) then you may not feel any significant difference and can run your Garmin set up if you want.

[GregDavis]

Nate, very well said. I'm impressed. How old are you?

[NateSmith43]

@bishop8950 thanks for clearing that up. One thing that I left out. This new puck is compatible with all current ZO systems. You do not need to purchase a new boat to start using this as it is rolled out in the next year.

 

New motors are a different story. But again that is not a change everyone wanted to make but when you have no more supply of old engines rolling in you have to start using the latest technology which are the Gen 5 direct injection motors.

 

Thanks @GregDavis . 25 this month

[JC McCavit]

Anyone have an idea what it will cost to upgrade 2015 and prior year ZO boats with this new ZO system with the single puck/brick antenna?

[Roger]

@JC McCavit - I haven't seen a cost yet, but I understand it's the puck, a new harness, and a software flash.

[skierjp]

Jody will know. The last time I talked to him he had 3 kits on the shelf for 6 liters.

[skierjp]

Just a little thought on the topic of new innovation and price increases. How would you like to be in the Corvette group? My first Brand new Vette in 1981 was 18k. The new 2016's top out at 125k!

[skiinxs]

I don't know what the price will be for the single puck or harness, but I am always happy to reflash head units for anyone close to me or who brings their boats to tournaments I am at (for free).

[ozski]

ZO - Availability and the ability supply a large user base with upgrades are two very different things.

[darinmontgomery]

We are creatures of habit that do not like change. No one can argue the price of boats are crazy high and doesn't encourage growth of the sport. However, the boats are well made with promo and used boats providing price options to fit all budgets.

 

To echo @bishop8950 no one has to buy a new boat, the new ZO puck works with the current ZO systems with a software update and possibly a new harness. I've heard, unconfirmed from ZO, the upgrade is around $800.

 

As @NateSmith43 stated, he ran 41 and 5@41 behind the 6.2 and 5.3 last weekend so while different, not terrible. Ok, it's Nate, he can run 41 behind any boat on any lake some will say. @BRY has skied at his average, 12 sets, behind the new engine/ZO and likes the pull better. My daughter, who is 14, ran 38 her first set behind our 5.3 and I've consistently skied mid 41 since getting the boat on a new ski to boot.

 

So, the World Record Holder, heavy loading M4 and M3 skiers, down to G3 skier are all skiing just fine behind the new engines/ZO.

 

My point is, yes, the pull is different and some will initially like it better and others will take time to adjust. I encourage everyone to get a set behind the 2016 200's to decide for yourselves.

 

[The_MS]

So I have to spend 800 to get an upgrade for ZO for our 2013 200 that at best feels the same?

That makes no sense. If it does feel worse, I have to spend 800 just to be ready for the same pull at a tourney. I think I am going the @ShaneH route.

Retired tourney skier

[slow]

Your not making a living out off it. Just go out and ski.

[LeonL]

So "just $800" and I can make my ZO feel similar to the new boats that I'll get at tournaments. New antennae, some wires and software...$800, what a joke. But I'm not laughing. And all because of poor quality pucks, or no longer available compatible pucks? I've got a rhyme for that.....it sucks!!! This could be corrected with software changes to the new single puck system (but what's the incentive for the Mfg? They'd rather sell you $800 worth of "fix" to your perfectly good system instead of fixing the messed up new software) How many new systems are there as compared to 8 years of production, not to mention refits/repowers? If thousands of current ZO owners DID decide to pull the trigger on the new stuff, can you imagine how much backlog there would be? How long would it take to get an upgrade? And this potential from a company that hasn't shown a lot desire to be very service oriented in the past. I'm not feeling very encouraged at this point, but who knows? Maybe ZO will do the right thing.

[slow]

Just go out and ski

[LeonL]

After sleeping on this subject, I realized that I was looking at two scenarios. @horton and @roger said that "they" are working on a fix. Presumably to make the system function as before. On the other hand @Dmontgomery says an upgrade is available (or will be) to make older versions function like the new. Which can we expect?

[santangelo]

Personally, if I had the old two puck system and I couldn't afford it/think it isn't worth the money I would not upgrade now, for a few reasons.

 

1. Currently the single puck does feel different to SOME skiers, but it may not in the future with software changes that the manufacturers are currently working on. It may not be an issue in the spring for those concerned about a different pull in a tournament.

2. You need to ski it first. As mentioned by several on the forum, it may feel fine to you. I'm assuming the majority of people on this forum haven't skied it yet so give it a chance before you complain about the change, it may be inconsequential or even beneficial too.

 

How is this any different than the pull we feel behind different boat manufacturers? No one is petitioning for all the manufactures to use the same hull and engine to 'level' the playing field. I've even felt considerable differences in boats of the same model/same year, so I get that we're a sensitive group.

 

ZO being the same on all boats, I personally like the pull of the Centurion and MasterCraft and know I'll need to adjust for the CC and Malibu. We also need to adjust for various weather conditions when we're skiing...it's part of our sport and has many variables. For me, what makes slalom so fun is that it's the most challenging sport mentally and physically that I've ever done. If not for this, I would have quit a long time ago.

 

Also, I have yet to see the new speed control change skier placement at tournaments. There's no indication there's an advantage for any specific skier type. It still comes down to skill and ability to adapt.

 

As @slow said, just go ski and have fun with it. You don't have to upgrade.

[Horton]

Part if the reason I am all torches and pitchforks about this is to put some pressure on "the powers that be". We can NOT let this sport face another situation where the skiers are split into "haves and have nots". My assumption that Puckgate will not be a big deal but it could be.

 

 

[BRY]

I skied behind a third example of a 5.3 single puck 200 yesterday in Miami. Ran B2B 35's and to two ball on the 38's. Kept getting wide and early and having issues not turning before the ball without giving up the turn. Pretty much an average set for me though the too wide and early an unusual issue for me.

I have a 2011 5.7 dual puck 200 with 422 prop. Differences I had to contend with:

Different site (water and setup feel much different than my lake)

Different driver (very good driver, but feels different than my usual driver)

Different engine

Different ZO software and puck

Different prop

How could I possibly have skied? Perhaps I should have quit instead. Certainly didn't feel just like my boat with my driver on my lake. But then I go to tournaments and, OMG!, there are 6L 200's which feel different, there are these MC boats that feel even more different(x2 with 5.7 & 6.2), and these Malibu ones (x2 with 5.7 & 6.0)(that I've only seen twice in the last 3 years) that feel way more different. Sigh, so hard but yea, not enough to make me quit. Guess I'm weird as I kinda like skiing different boats and different sites, think it's part of the fun.

 

So will I spend $800 for the upgrade? Probably not. It's just too similar to mine. Will I spend $400 to "upgrade" my 422 prop (once an approved prop) for a 654 prop (current 200 prop)? No, feels too much the same and I like it.

[kurt]

Having just spent a crap ton of money on a new 2015 and not planning on buying anything new for ten years again . I'm with @Horton on this one "torches and pitch forks".

I don't care if it kind of feels the same , make it the same.....

[wtrskior]

@Kurt

 

what if Nautique came out with a NEW "Ski Nautique 2000" for 2016.....

 

you want your money back? palease

 

 

[MISkier]

@wtrskior, I don't think a new Nautique model would bother @kurt. He has a Prostar. The issue is whether changes in the speed control cause another split in the skier community.

 

And, since @Horton already named it "Puckgate", I suspect it already has.

[wtrskior]

@miskier the brand doesn't matter, products evolve is my point. There is a greater difference in pull from a 197 to a prostar IMO. The prostar is an incredible evolution in hardware over its predecessor.

 

I've actually skied a 2016 with a 5.3L.... I had no idea there was a "new" ZO system on it. There is no "split" taking place, we even had the current world record holder comment on that not being the case, one of the best 55k skiers say the same thing, numerous guys who've actually skied the system/boat say the same thing, but guys are still whining about something they haven't even experienced.

 

 

[MISkier]

@wtrskior, I admit that there is anxiety about this and I haven't skied the new system either. If it truly is the same as the old system and zero adjustment is required by me as a skier, then it sounds fine - especially if I don't have to upgrade my current ZO to feel like the new ZO.

[Horton]

@wtrskior best guess is the Nautique 2001 will be released in 2017

[Jody_Seal]

Food for thought!

We Have run this new ECI hardware/software in a number of tournaments since July

with different engine packages (2014-16 models) and most skiers had no clue. The skiers that did know for the most part felt the overall pull was not foreign nor much different then previous Garman / ZO systems, We have many skiers that believe the new software/ hardware combo has a superior feel then previous versions. My self I have gone to B2 from C-1 with the ECI version.

Also more then likely when original garmen receivers fail the only fix now is the ECI upgrade.

[Dirt]

I am with Horton on this one. I believe it is a mistake to implement a new system without working the bugs out first. The idea here is to discuss it, identify whether or not there is a problem and talk about how to fix it if it needs fixing. This is not about brand bashing.

 

It is funny how people say, "Just ski" or call it an "upgrade." The consensus sounds like it feels worse and it costs $800.

 

Most pro athletes try to train in conditions that are as close to what they will get in competition and eliminate as many variables as possible. This includes things like drivers, ropes, wind, boats, cruise control, balanced boat, etc. If this were not the case, you would see them training on public water on weekends behind a bayliner with a rope with knots in it.

 

I can see why someone who spent a lot of money to have a newer boat with ZO is upset.

[slow]

And we wonder why we never made it the Olympics

[Intheday]

This whole thing drives me nuts! The issue for me is that there is an expectation that to be a "competitive" slalom skier there is a requirement for a ZO boat and that the boat is a current; Nautique, Mastercraft, Malibu or maybe a Centurion.

 

Think you want or need a ZO boat then spend $45k-$85k AUS for a second hand boat or new boat so half to all my gross salary tied up in a boat.

 

What encourages a outsider (lake skier) to take up slalom. The cost of social skiing is lower a couple of 20 year olds can get into a ski boat for $10k-$15k AUS ski, wakeboard, barefoot and tow tubes for the weekend. Brilliant family fun.

 

Slalom skiing is not easy to get into and this just makes it seem harder to the outsider especially when some software thing that only really only matters to elite athletes cost $800 or ~1% of my gross income and takes up three pages of this forum and is not even a fun purchase like a ski, rope or jacket.

 

So $800 buys my son 3 or 4 slots of coaching and is far more important than the software and we will ski behind a 2001 model boat with a not well sorted stargazer and only ski ZO in tournaments.

 

The problem is that the expectation is ZO not any capable speed control system.

 

Whoops sorry of topic now I read the title of the thread

[wtrskior]

@Intheday

 

It does not make it seem harder to the outsider.

 

It's the "insiders" that are complaining, prematurely at best.

 

A new iteration of zo isnt stopping anyone from getting into tournament skiing as most skiers, myself included even after skiing it, didn't even know there was something different!!!

 

Mass Hysteria is a far bigger issue than a new zo puck.

 

 

[ALPJr]

This will not impact anyone I ski with or push anyone I know out of tourney skiing. I don't see it as much different from training behind a 80's SN 2001 hull and going to tourneys and skiing behind the new MC PS 190 in 1991. That certainly felt different. IMO this is nothing for skiers below National, Open and Pro levels to think about. Maybe promo dealers too.