Raising rear binding or rotating forward?

[Waternut]

This sounds kinda silly but this year I started noticing that I can't really move forward onto my front foot, in good form, without lifting my rear heel. I have a Reflex front and an RTP in the back. I could maybe slide my rear binding forward about 1/8" at most but that doesn't really do much. I've injured my ankles more times than I can count on my fingers and toes. I've also always been a bit of a tail rider and starting to wonder if my ankle flexibility is part of the problem.

 

Just wondering if anyone has raised their rear binding or maybe rotated it forward slightly...or if it's even a reasonable consideration.

[gregy]

I have a reflex front and R-style rear. I've put a 3/16" thick spacer under the heel and I feel like it puts me in a more relaxed natural stance. There was a guy locally a few years ago that had hurt his ankle and put a wedge under his RTP plate, it was about 3/4" thick at the back of the plate.

[mopowpow]

I use a heel wedge in my rear Vapor boot for my bad ankle. I actually switched to a rear boot years ago because I kept nailing my bad ankle with the toe piece.

[Wish]

Hardshells rear heel lift.

[gsm_peter]

@Waternut

Funny. I just prepared a thread about this yesterday.

 

I tend to lift my back heel to get a more com stance.

It seems like I even keep it during the pull.

The back lower leg muscles get heavily overloaded and that hurts.

Yesterday, I added a 3/4" foam under the heel.

It felt great. Less pain and comfortable skiing.

I almost made a full 32mph and that is great being me so early in the season.

 

However. The foam is a bit to soft. Need to get better foam.

 

BTW I use profile boots so they can expand sufficiently.

 

[coxjon]

hahah exactly the same conversation I have been have with my coaches!

 

Didn't think of a rear boot with wedge in! great idea

[Waternut]

Well good to know I'm not totally off base here. I'll see what I can find/make to wedge the rear binding. I think the wedge would be more natural than raising it completely.

[WBLskier]

I have this same problem. If someone has a pic of the set up on a Rtp please post picture. Thanks.

[skialex]

I have added padding to rtps under the heel before but I think that I didn't need it. Few weeks ago I put foam pad from an old boot under the heel of a friend's RTP and he loves it a lot. His rear leg is a bit sorter dew to an accident. Another friend has made one too but I think he is going to try it tomorrow for the first time

[gsm_peter]

Small project report.

 

Prototype 1 used yesterday for 2 sets.

very soft material.

Felt much better. Skied (being me) very well and relaxed. Made PB for the season.

 

Prototype 2. Bought better material that do not collapse so much under load.

Made one very thick pice and a thinner larger piece.

Could barley squeeze in the foot using both.

 

 

Here is measurements. Standing on my rear leg with full body load on the rear foot.

3: Deepest is without any materia

2: is with thin material

1: is with both (approx 1" lift

 

 

 

Tool to make comfortable small space for the heel. very few mm made a great difference.

 

 

 

 

[Waternut]

@gsm_peter That's a lot of padding. I was thinking of starting at around 1/4" but I was planning on using harder material under the mount. Have you skied with those yet? Notice any positive or negative effects?

[mopowpow]

When I first tried the heel wedge I bought some dr. scholls and taped them in place. I now use a heel wedge made for snow ski boots, it's held up pretty well.

[Horton]

"Tail rider" almost always means back knee is bent more than front. Lifting your back heel makes this worse.

[gsm_peter]

I have used the prototype.

It was soft so I can not tell how much lift remained during pressure.

Also expected the material to not be durable.

It did take away most pain and I pb for the season.

 

Will start with the 0,6" pad.

The rest is for experiments.

 

I plan to ski a lot during the weekend.

Will report more later next week.

 

The main purpose is to reduce pain and not to change position.

 

 

 

[Gloersen]

C'mon, you guys >50 can't flex your ankle(s) (or front knee) like this???

 

[gsm_peter]

Yepp. Can flex a lot. ;)

I try to solve sort of the oposite issue and that is for me to ' flex less under load'.

 

 

[gsm_peter]

Report.

Used the heel lift during training last days for 9 sets over 4 days.

The leg pain went down to lower levels. Did recover over night.

Used only the thick pad for 7 sets. It provide approx 1/2" lift under load.

Tried 2 sets with both pads but it did not change the pain so I ditched it.

 

Skied well up to my level this part of the season.

I think this video was an average 15 off at 30 mph pass.

(Did run some 31,3 passes but no 32. Had many 32 and a few full 32.6 last year)

 

Coached session at Gravon France

 

[gsm_peter]

@Waternut

Have you tested any heel lifting material yet?

 

Opinions?

Does my video show tail riding effects due to heel lift?

 

[Waternut]

No not yet. Maybe I'll look into that tonight and free ski it tomorrow.

 

Hard to tell from just one video what's going on with a new mod.

[david_ski]

I went from double boot hard shells with a 3/4 inch heel insert to R-Style rear boot. adding in the heel lift into the R-style boot left me feeling like my foot was already 1/2 way ejected from the boot. I added a wedge between the plate and the binding. I need the heel lift to compensate for limited ankle flexibility from a previous injury in rubber bindings. I used HDPE for the wedge. Very happy with the final result.

 

 

[Waternut]

Nice @david_ski I was thinking of using some of the same stuff in the form of mold release wedges but I couldn't find where mine went. I ended up using some firm rubber stacked up. The lift was 1/2" and I placed some under the heel and another under the mounts. It's just a temporary solution for now.

 

I only free skied today and it feels a little funny when my heel doesn't go all the way down before cutting in. However, after the first wake crossing, I don't notice it at all. I like to have the feeling of my shoulders back, chest out, front knee bent, and more weight on my front foot coming into the buoy. Normally I have to really concentrate and force myself into that position or I'll bend at the waist in order to get far enough forward. I felt like this change puts me there without any additional effort. Subsequently the ski feels like it comes around a little better and gets a little more angle but I was also free skiing so it's tough to really tell. I'll see if I can get it in the course later this week or this weekend.

 

 

[wart]

Heel lift to match rear binding

 

[Horton]

I have only skimmed this thread but I am pretty sure a number of you are going down the wrong path.

 

If you have an injury and you are adding a lift to compensate it may be a good idea.

 

If you are healthy and think this is going to help your skiing – I strongly suspect you are going down the wrong path. 99.99999% of skiers already bend their back knee more than their front knee. This means their hips are back and they are anatomically at a disadvantage. Adding a heel lift only makes this worse.

 

You may able to mimic skiing position on the dock with the lift and feel it is better but I would bet a good bottle of scotch that most of you are in worse position on the water with the lift.

 

[Horton]

@gsm_peter do you have a still image of yourself at the first wake heading for your on side turn - right after your off side turn? If so lets see it. I think we can improve your skiing more with your feet flat on the ski.

[Horton]

@Gloersen that image of Manon does not help anyone.... Images like that are almost universally misunderstood and are the source of bad ideas.

[Deanoski]

Im with Horton on this one. Heel lifts make your hip go back! puts more pressure on your heel. use only if you have a bad ankle that does not flex

 

 

[ALPJr]

Way back around '76 we had a new Kimball Glass slalom that came with a beefy foam wedge behind the rear tow. Ski didn't work for me. Went back to wood until I got an EP Comp X2 around '80 or so.

[Waternut]

@Horton I kind of agree with you that this shouldn't be some sort of normal tuning tool which is why the question was posted in the first place. However, I've been skiing into 32off for the last 3 years and the last 2 years I've been knocking on 35off. I've had several lessons which do help with consistency...temporarily...but I haven't really made any significant headway because of them. I've been on 2 different D3 skis and 4 Radar ski's since I started skiing the course. After 10-15+ sets, I always seem to settle on similar fin and binding settings (not on purpose). When I find a ski setting that ultimately works for me, I find that I am always having to force myself into the correct body position because it's not a natural feeling at all. It's as close to natural feeling as I can get with standard ski tweaking though.

 

So instead of continuing to contort myself and beat my head against the wall, I figured I'd try something a little unorthodox because all of the orthodox methods aren't doing it for me. At this time, it's just a trial run...

 

I do know that I've rolled my ankles more times than I can even remember and I do know that my ankles are stiffer because of it but it is hard to know if that is really affecting my skiing. It definitely looks like my ankle has enough flex in "living room trials" but on a ski, it feels like I'm powerless to flex forward as if someone is physically holding my shin back.

[Horton]

@Waternut just remember that long-term if your back knee is bent more than your front knee it's a very bad thing

[Deanoski]

@Waternut if you would flatten out your reflex you would be able to move forward more. makes a huge difference. not sure why skiers don't tune there boots? a shell is cheap 120.00-150 compared to all the other stuff we buy skis boats ect.

 

Adam cord boot tuning guide is spot on!

[Waternut]

@Deanoski What do you mean by flatten out the reflex?

[gsm_peter]

@Horton

Thanks for supporting me!

There are a lot of thins to improve in my skiing.

 

When I ski I am totally convinced that my back leg is straight.

When I look at the videos I realize that there is a great deal of disconnection between my brain and the reality :s

 

 

Here are a few pictures at the first wake heading for my on side turn (LFF going for 1,3, 5)

Most passes are 49, 50, 51, 52 km/h

 

 

Pict 1. With heel lift.

 

Pict 2. With heel lift.

 

Pict 3. With heel lift.

 

Pict 4. With heel lift.

 

 

Pict 5. Without heel lift. (Last year)

 

Pict 6. Without heel lift. (Last year)

[Horton]

@gsm_peter from those pictures it looks like your heel is way up with or without the lift. If you want to ski more efficiently you need to get both heel on the ski. The lift is not the issue but it is not helping.

 

A key thing to notice is that your back knee is beside your front knee. Your back knee should be behind your front knee.

 

It is hard to do but simple to understand.... you need to just stand up. You need to extend both legs. You want the power of the boat to go through both heels.

[gsm_peter]

@Horton

Thanks.

Maybe too much leftover from alpine skiing?

 

Grateful is some one has a magic tool to connect the brain with the legs?

 

I will try some free skiing next time and see if that helps.

[Horton]

@gsm_peter I think your gate is the best place to work on this. It is harder to lean in the course. Get video as you work on this and post it.

 

I am always happy to abuse Ballers. Ask @Rico

[Waternut]

So I got my setup on the course today but unfortunately forgot my camera at home. I will go ahead and say that 1/2" of heel rise is WAY WAY too much! The ski was snapping around so hard on both sides that I could barely control it. If it didn't break me at the waist coming out of the buoy, I'd get lean locked and be super early but massively out of control at the next buoy. I cut the first set short because I didn't want to ruin myself by trying to get used to that setup.

 

Second set, I used 1/4" of heel rise and it was a lot better but still a little too much.

 

Bottom line on the first day of course trials... No video evidence but at 1/4" of heel lift I don't feel like I'm breaking at the waist coming into the buoy like I normally do. However, the ski is overturning coming out of the buoy which is more likely to break me at the waist coming out of the buoy. If I can control the turns, my cross course posture feels good with more weight on my front foot instead of riding the back foot like I normally do. Subsequently, I was considerably earlier and wider at 22off through 32off. Will probably try 1/8" of rise tomorrow and see if I can still get enough ankle flex without it biting off too much. At this point, I'm trying to stay away from changing binding and fin settings to accommodate the heel lift as that just seems like a bad idea.