Masters Webcast

[MrJones]

From reading you guy's posts I do look forward to seeing it though...

[Drago]

Although... He Was 100% sure he won.

[ALPJr]

No kidding @FWinter. NBA NFL, how about youth basketball and football? They pay and train officials and have national boards made up of local ref's to review and adjust rules. At the pro level, it's a whole nother ball game. Officials have a very limited time to correct performance. Of coarse they are pros too. And, more importantly honor a Veteran today !

[Freddie Winter]

My honest impression is that the reason we have such a lengthy and complicated review system is because the frankly pathetically poor level of technology that is used to officiate skiing. Currently to review the situation such as todays (the five ball exit gate) the video that is used is the boat cameras wireless feed that has been transmitted to the judges tower. This fees is maybe 5 frames per second and blurry as hell having been transmitted at 500ft at 36mph. Basically it's 1992 level video. Of course the judges are going to struggle to make a good call based on this shocking video. This is why the last year we've seen decisions change so frequently when challenged. It would actually be unjust for the judges to make a definitive call on what they could see. In the end confusion reigns. This could not be more in contrast with the nfl, the premier league or the nba. As someone said to me last year very eloquently, the standard of skiing is at an all time high but it's being judged with sub Walmart level tech. Of course this needs to be changed and until it is I don't think a new system can be put in place that would allow for a more definitive, correct and informed decision system to be put in place.

[Drago]

@FWinter . Throw the videos away. I've been there as a judge, The video does suck. At some point you (open skiers) gotta get together and realize it is a show. You don't need the Masters to be a Record tournament. Make it a "F" or "X", or something new. Go with 6-10 eyes and call it good.

Another option: don't do live. Do a quick edit and get it out same day.i would pay for that.

Major League sports hardly use video. Why? Because the fans hate it. Don't let dinosaurs (like me) make all these rules for your show. Create a union and a product young people will want to watch. My 14 year old just wants to watch you ski. Big spray, hip on the water, ... Tell him to wait 20 minutes and we'll see what's up after that, and he's gone

[MISkier]

I guess I don't understand why a skier would stop after "just enough" to win - if that was what happened. I didn't see the finals, so I will have to go back and watch those. But, it seems to me that finishing that 39 pass and taking another crack at the record at Robin Lake would have been the thing to do. In fact, if I were negotiating a sponsorship contract, I would have some sort of clause in there for the margin of victory for events won. Each 1/4, half, full buoy equals more incentive money from the boat company, ski company, rope company, glove company, etc. As a sponsor, I would want the viewing public to draw the conclusion that my product was so much of an advantage for the winner (as evidenced by the margin of victory) that people would think they have no choice but to buy the same stuff to ski great. I get that you might not want to smoke by everybody behind the competitor's boat, but that was not an issue in this case.

 

I'm just trying to understand the strategy of stopping after just enough to win. There may be a very good reason for doing so. I just don't have any idea what it might be.

[brody]

I think Nate would have run the whole pass if he could have. Every tournament I've watched him he has run as far as he could. I would guess that he felt it was a gamble to try and run, so why not be safe. This is not the only sport where they do that. Have you ever seen a sprinter let off in the last 10m when he knows he's got it?

[JordanOz]

@brody I respectfully disagree in that I've seen Nate toss the handle as soon as he has done enough to win. Just look at Moomba Masters final from 2015 as an example.

[dchristman]

I mentioned this sports tracking system used by the NFL in a thread a while ago an it got little traction. Someone ought to look into the feasability of using such a system at Callaway.

[The_MS]

Just give them all a medal for participating and don't keep score.

[Texas6]

Yes and divvy up the proceeds equally from the sponsors and watch how hard nobodys compete to be the best

[wskier]

Yes they do need to realize what people want to see. People like to watch records go down. Basically Nate, Regina & Freddy all stopped skiing as soon as they won. Another thing if a certain boat pulls a tournament sponsored skier can not break record. I can not think of another sport that does this!!!

[Ilivetoski]

For the video why does it have to be so complicated? Why not video with an iPhone or iPad and if there is any question, run the phone up to the the judges tower??

[wskier]

@Mark_Matis ,Yes there's always a chance of injury. How many jumps during the week did he jump. You're at the biggest tournament of the year if you want to promote you're sport you put on a show. Water skiers get hurt 99% of the time in practice not tournaments. I'm 54 yrs old I live on the west coast. I remember going to Marine World & Cal Cup in the 80's they were skiing for $10,000 -$25,00.00 dollars for first place there were 20 thousand fans in the stands you had to get to the tournament an hour before the park opened for a good seat . What did they win yesterday.

[dchristman]

[wskier]

@ dchristman I really enjoyed the song. Butt I,m more of a Van Halen, ac?dc guy. I remember everytime before I would jump I get in my 72 challenger and play jump

[wskier]

Oh and before I slalomed I would play Hells Bells. My 1979 Ski Supreme did not come with a 5,00.00 dollar stereo system. The boat cost 12,000.00. On these new boats the stereo coast more than the boats of yesterday. GOOD TIMES!!!

[matthewbrown]

@MISkier the score to beat was 4.5@39. This is what Nate knew. His strategy was brilliant, he got an early start at 1 and 2, then took it easy at 3 and 4 to do just enough to get out to 5 and take the win. If he had decided to run the pass inexplicably in those crappy conditions, he would of had to be much more aggressive at 3 and 4, and we all know what can happen at that 3 ball, every year someone goes down there. There is no way he could of anticipated that scores would change while he was skiing and there was no way he should of just guessed that the scores would change, thereby changing his strategy to a much more risky one. @Horton you don't turn 5 ball in that situation and try to be a hero, I know how you hate a score of 5, but c'mon man.

[MISkier]

Thanks for the insight @matthewbrown. From some of the descriptions here, it seemed he was cruising easily. But, it is important to not over ski it either and risk the win by not getting the score that you must.

[gregy]

These kind of tournament should be ran under different rules "as a show" as some said. Judges make the call and move on. It happens in other sports all the time. No protest or protest ends when next skier is on the water. Limit time for review.

 

Leave the protest and delays for smaller record tournaments. Winning the master is a huge deal for a pro. I'm sure Nate got around 5 ball and was really excited.

[wskier]

Thanks @matthewbrown . On the telecast it look like perfect conditions and the announcer was saying on the telecast they were perfect conditions. Records could be broke. I know their not going to break a world record on that site just course records. I met Your brother and all the pros at board stock at Konocti help set up the course. Now those were tough conditions But the guys loved it, Skiing in front of a 100,000 people will do that Jamie won the event but Terry went thru the gates. If I remember right they all split the money nobody got hurt. They all ran 35 which was amazing in those conditions

[Wish]

Spoke at length with Feddy today on this this topic. He is very passionate about as he was in the mix last year with score issues. After listening to him speak I've come away with 3 things. 1. The Masters (and others) MUST have a significantly higher level of technology for vid review. A simple docking of the boat, handing the SD card to review judge would be 1000x better and take significantly less time. There are SD cards that are WiFi. Pull boat up and transmit. 2. There MUST MUST must be a limit to how long reviews can take, with judge tie going to skier. 3. Yes it is a show but these skiers have huge expenses and the differance between 1st and 2nd in earnings outside of tournament purse is substantial. So judging cannot be so convoluted. I truly believe that elevating an actual former pro skier, Roni B, to basically running that Masters may have a huge advantage for next year. She can and should implement what is needed to avoid this imbarasement two years running now. Nautique should also invest, finatially, in keeping this from happening again. This does not reflect well with them. This is not complicated nor costly. Simple steps with rules and equipment can be implemented. Roni is in place to make that happen. As a side note I think attempting to "go for it" in conditions far far less then ideal is a mistake. Nate did the right thing and got the win as far as he knew it to be. Also, I am officially a huge @FWinter fan.

[gregy]

Win is a win. I'd do the same.

[ALPJr]

@FWinter thanks for clarifying the video issue. I did not mean to fault officials as I know they are very dedicated and work hard. It seems like a an issue with video review process - perhaps it needs a time limit, and an unquestionable reason to reverse the officials call in live action.

[LeonL]

Call me old fashioned, but as someone mentioned earlier, go back to five judges. Call what you see, majority rules, done deal. No protest, no review, good judges making their best call.

[Broussard]

@wskier Maybe because no other sport is in that situation. Sporting clay shooters get to bring their gun of choice, baseball players choose their bat, runners choose their shoes. As for why he stopped skiing and didn't try to break a record, at this point it is highly unlikely that a world record will be set at Robin Lake.

[wskier]

@Broussard water skiers choose there own skis don't they ? ( READ MY POST ) I said nothing about a world record.

[skidawg]

@matthewbrown is correct, not to mention that the 4 ball from that direction was rough on everyone all weekend

[Razorskier1]

I thought the lake looked like it was rolling a lot (like in all years). I bow down to all of the skiers who somehow put up mighty big scores in those conditions year after year.

[unksskis]

All we ever do is complain. It was a frustrating situation, but now we've got Monday morning QB's criticizing the best skiers currently and a large tournament we're lucky to still have going on. Could it be done better, of course, but these guys have a full season remaining they need to be 100% for, and this is a profession. Thankful for the webcast, otherwise we'd have nothing to complain about and info just from the few that attended.

[Horton]

This really really sucks... Yes @matthewbrown after review .... yes you are correct. Also see my thoughts on the judging

[Wish]

@unksskis I do think there is legitimacy in complaining about what happened. It has happened 4 out out the last 5 years. This does more damage to the sport then saying nothing. It damages the fans both web cast and live in their enjoyment (for the most part), it damages brands, it damages relationships among the competitors, it damages the very image of the most prestigious tournament known to waterskiing, on and on. Barring heads in the sand just propitiates it. I did not pay close attention to wakeskate and wakeboard when I was there but I almost certain it went off without a hitch. And also certain it has in the past. Crowds grew significantly at the waters edge when the Wakeships started pulling boarders. When they were done things thinned out a bit. It's hard enough to explain our sport to non-skiers ( a LOT of them on site ) let alone 4 out of the last 5 years trying to explain what happened after a winner was announced...then changed..then announced...then changed.....

 

BYW, Nate was given a choice as to how he wanted to break the tie. That also took some time. And there is no rule in the books as far as I know as to the choices they gave him. They pretty much just made it up as to what sounded like a reasonable solution. Hopefully the complaints will be heard, corrected and the best ski tournament can move on without issues.

[Than_Bogan]

Fwiw: People complain about sports constantly. If nobody is on the radio talking about how the refs sucked, then it means nobody cares about that sport (in my area, that is the fate of soccer).

 

So I strongly disagree with anyone who sees all our complaining as destructive. On the contrary, it means we a) are paying attention and b) care.

 

On the other side of that coin, folks who run leagues need to be VERY cautious about doing what the fans ask them to do.

 

And don't look now, but water skiing apparently has fans!

[unksskis]

I agree with you, the criticism can be useful, and help to advance. I'm more referring to criticizing skiers for only going for the win. I agree it is hard for us, with many of us being judges ourselves on the weekends, to see this amount of disorganization, and how damaging it could look, but I think we need to realize what minor % of the competitive skiing community actually tuned into the webcast, as I expect it is small. Most of the people I knew who tuned in are wakeboarders, and were quickly disinterested in it because for some reason most of the top non-Nautique riders weren't in attendance....I'm not sure why, Harley even got a 100 there last year. You're right, constructive criticism is going to advance and help, but you've also got to have someone listening to the people for that to work. Hopefully that is the case, they are listening, because it's another topic, but I'm getting worried the amount of influence, pull, direction and overall control the vendors/manufacturers have over the governing body, rather than the association members, has reached a critical level, with "towed watersports", wakesurfs, and everything else outside our target demographic being shoved down everyone's throats. To me, it's time to look out for 3 event, and 3 event only, and the Pro's aren't going to do that, unfortunately but understandably so, they've got boat sponsors to appease. Criticize away, hopefully the right people are listening and can do something about it.

[Freddie Winter]

@LeonL In an ideal world five judges making perfect calls would be enough. I know that this would not work. Judges get things wrong at many of the big events even with video reviews available so if it was just eyesight then there would be far more.

 

At one of the bigger pro events last year they were judging by eye and scored me a half buoy when I S turned and went through the exit buoys (very similar to Will Asher at 5 buoy this weekend). I asked for a review as I knew I should have the full buoy scored and was told that there was no camera and the judges call was final. I then looked at the judges position - on the bank about 150 feet from the exit gates and behind where my spray would have been. I didn't see that as fair.

 

As I said before, the technology is there to do this better and at a low cost (not that it should matter at what we are forever told is the 'most prestigious event in water skiing', perhaps they can buy part of a new camera or SD card with my $300 entry fee). The fact better tech isn't used already is puzzling, perhaps some of the older judges are happy with a 'it worked before so it will work again' mindset. We all know that it has not worked before, multiple times, hence this conversation.

 

@Wish great to talk to you yesterday. On a far more positive note to my most recent posts, it's great meeting Ballers in the real world. Water skiing does still have fans and hopefully a brighter future than what we are experiencing now.

 

 

 

[DW]

One takeaway I would leave the event with, make sure you ski to or past the potential score outcome and you might want to assume you do not really know what it is at the time. Imagine if Nate did not go far enough, that would be a whoops, I would expect him to tuck that away for future reference. If nothing else, the unknown tends to create anticipation!

 

One thing that NASCAR does do correctly, they have a policy that you the fan will leave the stadium right after the event knowing who won. Pretty challenging if you think about the ramifications of that since the device used in competition has ample opportunity to circumvent the regulations not only prior, but also during the event. Perhaps that is a policy that would be good for the sanctioning body to adopt. A time limit on any review would certainly be a good thing, particularly if the sport is interested in cultivating viewership, if not, then accuracy would be the prevailing item.

[unksskis]

I think you're highlighting the issue. Being the top seed, you earned the knowledge of what everyone else scored, and what to beat. There is so much strategy in that for these guys too. The score Nate is told should be the final score he has to beat, just as Freddy knew what he had to beat (by 20cm). The officials need to tuck this away and realize they screw skiers by changing scores after they leave the dock. When did they know it changed? Could they have told/allowed to tell him during his passes? These guys are skiing for placements, not scores/buoy count.

[ktm300]

No reason that the Masters has to continue as "the most prestigious tournament". I enjoyed watching the Swiss Pro more than the Masters. Better webcast, better announcing, great conditions, site better set up for judging, most of the skiers live next door or thereabouts, and, could easily expand to include three event. Oh yeah, I liked the octocopter. While I have nothing whatsoever against wakeboarding, wakeskate, tubing or bass fishing, I just don't think any of them belong in the "most prestigious" water ski tournament. I still have not seen the slalom final for the Masters as the video hasn't been posted (I was out skiing myself whilst it was going on).

 

Why not start a new tradition and call the Swiss tournament the "Galactic Spectacular" or some other over the top moniker; better than "mere" Masters. Make it three event only; top of the elite list; keep the last chance qualifier (nice drama); maybe run head to head for slalom... For inaugural year, spend almost all of the money attempting to guarantee a BS free internet connection and the best damned wi fi connection technologically possible. Make it the best ever webcast of any event ever in world history. Second year, charge $2.00 to view the webcast. Do not make any of the video available anywhere without charging a fee for it. Third year, charge more for the webcast/video; every paying customer is entered into drawing for something cool (how about a day of skiing with the winner of your favorite event); interviews with each of the athletes that gets into the personal side not just skiing...allow people to know them... create a connection...somebody to cheer for (ever noticed how every other sport on earth does this).

 

All of the above is just rambling on my part and maybe none of the ideas are good. If not, what are some good ideas to make for a better waterski tournament experience for the skiers and the viewers?

[unksskis]

This could be a silly question, but, what is the largest tournament with multiple boat companies attending/supporting? Nationals? Pan Ams? I really don't know, but I feel the larger tournaments should have support from multiple companies with boat draws, these exclusive deals make them into infomercials rather than competitions.

[gregy]

I'm just glad there are companies still willing to invest and sponsor these events. If they don't see a payoff this could end. We should all be supportive of it.