Than's RTP transition log

[Than_Bogan]

As many have seen, there's a bit of a trend "back" to kickers right now. It's hard to argue with Andy Mapple, Nate Smith, AND the Denali Adams. I've decided to jump on the bandwagon, and I thought perhaps others would be interested to follow my experiences. Or at least laugh at me.

 

Over the course of my career, I have changed skis (many times, of course). I have changed bindings, and even binding types (soft to hard and back more than once). About 20 years ago I changed from RTP to dual-boot. And I've even changed my grip to have the "correct" palm up.

 

For me, going back to an RTP is -- by far -- a bigger change than any of those.

 

DAY ONE

I initially wasn't even close to running my opening pass (34/-28), so I decided to go to 32 mph to try to round a few buoys. This took quite a few attempts, but I eventually completed it a few times. Then I went back to 34 and it was still impossible. Over two sets, I went back and forth from running 32 to horribly missing 34. Finally on my very last try I made it through my opening pass.

 

An RTP completely changes where I stand on the ski. To my great surprise, it causes me to stand much much more to the back. According to the observer, and it matches what I felt, the water was breaking *behind* my rear foot. I tried hard to move onto the front foot, with little success. My pull phase was ugly, but it was my off-side turn that was a true disaster. Coming in that far back on the ski either meant I'd just drift right by without turning at all, or suddenly slam down the front, stop the ski dead, and then be helpless to stop the tail from skidding right out.

 

The one silver lining was that the finish of my onside (when I even got there) felt crisp, tight, and efficient. And that's especially interesting for me because typically my onside turn is one of the weakest points of my technique.

 

My theory is that over the years with dual boots, I've developed habits of moving the ski quite a bit from back there. On the off-side in particular, it appears that I have been pushing the tip down by lifting my rear foot, and (even more surprising) that I've been using my rear heal to help force the ski around the turn.

 

Given all this, it seemed to make sense to try to move the boots forward.

[Than_Bogan]

Then for Day Two, I set a nice trap for myself by rushing to reconnect the Dual-Lock after moving the boots. We all know how that ends. No injury or anything, just sitting in the water feeling really stupid.

 

Not quite sure when this tale will continue, because now I need to reinstall some Dual-Lock since parts of it tore free during the pre-release. But it helps a little to share, given what a giant step back this feels like so far.

 

Fwiw, @AdamCord told me he had a very similar experience, right down to the onside feeling great and everything else feeling absolutely horrible. But now he swears by RTP.

[MattP]

@Than_Bogan what no video?? I thought you knew the rules around here!

Try the front binding 1/8 forward then possibly +.005 DFT. I'm a little surprised that you were so far back on the ski after moving away from a double boot. Where is your rear foot on the ski with the RTP in relation to where it was with the double boot?

[Than_Bogan]

@MattP Thanks for your thoughts. That's exactly what I was aiming for when I hosed up my Dual-Lock installation. As far as the RTP vs. the rear boot position, I tried to put it in the same place. It could be maybe a hair further back -- maybe like a 1/16"?

 

Technically I have video from today of the Dual-Lock peeling away and me sliding onto my but. No video of all the failing at 1 or 3 on the first day, though!

 

Another possible issue: The Wiley RTP is pretty low (very thin footbed) compared to a T-Factor front boot. I will probably order up a D3 RTP which may have more similar level.

[Than_Bogan]

I forgot to mention one of my guesses as to why I am going so hard to the rear of the ski: I think it's a psychological trick where I feel like I am losing "grip" of my ski and I need to jam that rear foot down to try to re-establish it.

 

Or maybe something totally different... But anyhow at first it was like "well at least I won't have to tune the leading edge of my fin because it's not in the water" :).

[Ilivetoski]

What do the Denali guys say is the advantage of RTP and how does that relate to R style?

[Gloersen]

Fascinating...

 

same experience here 3 years ago with RTP; very tail heavy but I think it was a protective, reactive stance to keep the rear foot in place.

 

A few super scary pre-turn offside OTF's (RTP I used was an HO floating type; very insecure) and I abandoned the idea and currently use a cut-down R-style.

 

After the next tournament going to try Radar's lace type RTP; it feels much more secure.

 

I assume @Than_Bogan you are seeking to be more balanced over the front foot and thus the RTP challenge is alluring?

 

 

[Mateo_Vargas]

Could you please begin each entry with the Star Date?

[Sethro]

I switched to a RTP about a year and a half ago....for the reasons @Than_Bogan was describing he found himself doing with a rear boot. I too was controlling too much with my rear foot. My first few outings were horrific as well, but I finally adjusted.

 

No problems till last Friday when I was skiing -28 in rough water and my back foot somehow popped out of the RTP in full reach around 3 ball. Fell flat on my left side upper ribs fully extended and they still hurt. I don't think I broke anything, but haven't been able to slalom since.

 

I have no idea how it happened but sure hope it doesn't happen again.

[ozski]

I made the switch to double boots way back in the 90's for "safety reasons" and my home site was pretty short and made it hard to kick in before the pre gates were on me... Anyway I recall some serious adjustment issues switching to double boots. Not sure I'm ready to go back but the R-style does interest me. My current double boot setup is not typical. I can pretty much step out of it, lots of room to move around with my heel but I have a very firm downward pressure over the front of my foot. Another point is that in these days of micro adjustable bindings its somehow ok to kick in your rear foot and expect it to land in exactly the same place each time? Than I am going to enjoy reading about your progress and hope to hear good things over the coming weeks.

[Horton]

@"Mateo Vargas" thanks. Best laugh all day.

[2tracmind]

I am assuming you inadvertently forgot Will Asher.

I skied RTP from 1990 to 2002, switched to Double Animals when i got a new HO. Switched back to RTP in 2011 after watching video of my skiing for the first time, it almost made me sick. I was trying to be stacked but wasn't and the video showed a back foot dominance.

It took me only 3-4 sets to be comfortable but I felt better connection and less back foot during my first set. I would never switch back.

It is important to invest some time adjusting RTP to fit, I have trimmed and sanded mine so my foot fits in fully. I also use a wedge or shoe tree to keep the boot stretched, air temp can affect the fit. I have NEVER had my back foot come out by accident.

Even if you prefer DB's, if i were a coach i would have students spend time training on the RTP as a training tool.

Good Luck, i look forward to the updates.

[Wish]

I've had 2 sets now on an RTP and Reflex front attempting to move to that after having ridden double boots since 1988 and hard shells since 2001. With our spin in set ups I thought I would just get up with foot in RTP. Bahahahahahaaaa. What a humbling experience. Abandoned that idea. So just gonna kick that foot in like I do on the trick ski...also humbling. Ok, got past the getting up thing, so now just some wake crossing..no buoy chasing. Geeez how can this be that hard to do. Felt like such a newb. Started to just laugh at the total awkwardness of it all. This is going to be a loooong process for me....I think.

[LeonL]

@Than_Bogan I thought you were on OB4 and praised that setup??

[Chef23]

@Than_Bogan I haven't seen the D3 RTP but I much prefered the HO one to the Radar one. The HO RTP has a tiny cup that holds the foot in place better. The pad also sits up a little higher than the Wiley one.

[oldjeep]

@chef23 The radar ARTP has a pretty formed footbed with a deep heel cup on it. Which Radar RTP had you tried? FWIW - the picture of the D3 leverage RTP I found shows that it looks like the "old fashioned" RTP where it is just a completely flat piece of foam as the cushion so that your heel slides if you put any pressure on it.

 

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server700/3zn5h/products/253/images/927/2016_RADAR_ARTP_GRAPH_3_4__56667.1446060163.500.750.jpg?c=2

 

http://img.nauticexpo.com/images_ne/photo-g/26725-9038082.jpg

 

[Chef23]

@oldjeep it isn't the adjustable one it is the Fitted RTP. I am a kicker when I get up and I don't like the adjustable ones for that. I do like the way the footbed on the ARTP looks though. Not sure I want to buy a complete on just to get the plate and footbed though.

[oldjeep]

Ah. Looking at Radars website it doesn't look like they even sell an non adjustable any more unless it is just not listed.

[Chef23]

@oldjeep here is the Radar RTP on the Performance Ski site which is where I bought mine.

 

Rader Fitted RTP

[lcgordon]

This is very interesting. I thought about doing the same thing at the end of the season but boots ripped last week and the middle of the season is not a good time to learn so I bought new double boots.

[Than_Bogan]

@Chef23 @oldjeep Great info! I'll look into some more fitted options.

 

@LeonL I love the releasability of the OB4 system. Unfortunately, I was never able to get it tuned up to be completely pre-release-free. I think it's possible the Dual-Lock mount wasn't a good idea.

[Jordan]

@Than_Bogan , I'm wondering if when you were in double boots if the feeling of the top of the heel rubber or liner pushing against your leg was giving you a cue as to where you were on the ski in terms of front to back. Maybe, not having that feeling is allowing you to move further back than before.

 

FWIW, I suspect that the backseat driving will disappear in a few more sets.

 

Out of curiosity, did you mount the toe kicker to the same plate you were using before with the double boots?

 

What are your thoughts about having the kicker on the double plate versus a plate for the front boot and a permanently mounted toe kicker ( like most Reflex set-ups)?

 

[Chef23]

@Than_Bogan I have some dual lock but probably not enough for a full replacement. Probably enough for a patch job.

[Than_Bogan]

@Chef23 Thanks! But by coincidence, I just restocked and I have yards of each of 250/400.

[santangelo]

Like many, I was on double hard shells for about 20 years until about 3 years ago when I decided to switch to a kick-in for a few reasons:

I think a rear kick-in is a safer system

My onside was much worse than my offside in double hardshells

 

I spent a full month/about 25 sets on a rear rubber kick-in. Two observations coming off of double hardshells for me:

On side was incredibly better. Rear ankle lateral flexion is so important for my morphology, and suspect it is for most.

Off side was horrible. Even after 25 set's I struggled to make my 2nd pass which I would occasionally start at ( -32 )

If you are on hard shells and complain about a slow ski, go to a rear kick in and be prepared for lots of speed. I didn't realize how much forward pressure is applied to the tip of the ski from the rear upper cuff even when your just riding down the lake (which explains why my off side was so good on doubles). I kept overshooting my gates because the ski was more efficient. I had to move bindings forward 3/8" to get the ski to feel closer to normal, but was still faster.

I think you have to be a more technically correct skier to use a kick-in. Double boots was a band aid of sorts for me.

 

After that month, I gave up on the rubber kick in and put my old double boots on but removed the rear upper cuff (now basically an R style). Much more familiar and skied very well on this system. I still had considerable rear ankle lateral flexion so on side was very good and lost very little to the off-side compared to double boots. I think this is why the R-style system is so attractive.

 

In the end, I customized a hard plastic shell into a kick-in. It's asymmetrical so I get lateral support on my offside, but open on my onside so I get lateral ankle flexion comparable to a rubber kick in. Most importantly, I think I'm a better skier as a result of the change.

[UWSkier]

There's definitely something to the rear cuff. If I over-snug my laces on my rear Vapor boot, my skiing goes to hell. I actually run the laces quite loose and the Boas really snug for best ride.

 

For me, in the past, RTP was always awesome for easy holeshots, but after a few one-out-one-in twisting crashes and a torqued knee, it's been double boots for me since.

[MattP]

@Than_Bogan Leveling out binding height

[disland]

@MattP still using a lift?

[BlueSki]

To @Jordan's point, I am curious if the transition would be aided by putting on a thin Reflex liner and taping the top around your leg as you use the RTP. I remember when I tried the r-style that the liner I used was critical. I once tried a liner that felt like I was in a RTP.

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan I am have learned a huge amount by skiing on a different ski every 20-25 rides but I am also sure it keeps my scores down. I have to ask- with all the gear changes in the last 2 years are your scores near your peak?

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Insightful question!

 

These experiments are most definitely reducing my scores. In fact, I am not skiing many (perhaps no) tournaments this year because my focus is on crazy R&D much more than my own performance. There's a chance all this will pay off with a deeper understanding that someday leads to better skiing, but I also accept the possibility that I am simply making myself worse in exchange for knowledge.

 

For some reason, about 2 years ago my mental focus suddenly shifted and I became much more interested in technology and theory than in performance. I'll admit there are days I wonder "What am I doing?" but on balance this is really where my heart is now. If my peak tournament performance of my life is that one miracle -38 in 2011, I am prepared to live with that.

 

Maybe this will lead to me someday contributing some technology to this sport, but that very much remains to be seen.

[The_MS]

@Horton, Nice excuse.

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan as long as you know what you're doing and you're having fun I can't see why not keep going. Maybe we should have a poll to see what everybody thinks you should try next.

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Yep! But as far as a poll, I learned my lesson from Disney's Bad Hair Day :).

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan I don't follow that reference but I'm pretty sure that if you switch feet forward I want to see video

[fu_man]

@Than_Bogan FWIW I have been using a RTP my whole life. At one point I was having issues with my foot slipping. The old wood skis sometimes had this stair tread anti slip sand paper stuff on them. I think I also saw a video of Mapple setting up a ski where he used the same thing on his RTP. I got some of this, cut it to size, and stuck it right to the neoprene foot pad. Works great for keeping my foot in place.

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Your daughter is a little too young for DCOM (Disney Channel Original Movie). The pain is coming soon!

 

@fu_man Thanks!

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan we are all British cartoons on Sprout

[BlueSki]

@Horton, Shaun the Sheep = high comedy.

[mmosley899]

I tried to switch to a rtp this spring after 25 years in double boots. Double hard shells were making it hard to get up because of back and knee issues. That did not go well. Then went to the Radar HRT. That worked pretty well. Moved on to the "M" style rear, after a few adjustments, that works great for me. But I highly recommend the HRT or ChopTop rear for those switching from double boots.

 

[Wish]

@OB1 Reflex on loan and made the RTP out of scrap parts. Still a skier on an extreme budget. Check is on the mail.

[OldboyII]

Is there any hack how to convert Radar HRT to plateless direct mount binding for HO ski?

[ALPJr]

I find the 2016 HO XMax to be a very nice option for the rear foot. It provides lateral stability without locking you in. The laces can be adjusted to customize your desired fit, flexibility and releasabily. They're very comfortable and the direct connect system has a lot of fore, aft and canting settings if you're on a newer HO ski. No more numb cramped rear foot after 4 or 5 passes.

[ToddL]

For those who were on double boots, then switched to rear toe and had to move your bindings forward, did you ever move them back after your technique became one with the RTP? If not, do you feel that RTP setups on average require a more forward location than double boots?

 

The reason I am asking is with all of the sharing of ski settings, should skiers state binding style along with the location.

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddL Very much wondering the same thing! @MikeT has been on RTP for many years, but he has recently been finding he needs to move a bit forward of stock on Goodes to avoid tail-riding. Wondering if this is because Goode's baseline settings are for their Powershells.

[eleeski]

@ToddL Interesting question. Lisa moved way forward when she switched to a toe kicker. It took her a long time to adjust (and to figure out that she needed to go forward a lot). So far no indications that she should change position.

 

@Than_Bogan The R&D can be the enjoyment value in skiing. Since much of R&D is failure, your skiing performance will suffer because your equipment is not right. But skiing on the screwed up stuff will improve your skillset. Then when you find something great, your performance will possibly exceed your baseline. Keep tinkering!

 

Eric

[MattP]

@disland yes, still using the RTP leveling lift. I would say that is something that more skiers should be thinking about when they are are struggling with their ski setup when using different front and rear bindings.

[Than_Bogan]

Hoping to continue my journey tonight. But on a far more important note, I have just learned that Stardates were mostly arbitrary and cannot be converted to and from earth dates. World shattered. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that gives me license to make them up!

[mmosley899]

@Than_Bogan I had the opportunity to meet Gene Rodenberry and discuss Star Trek over drinks, many years ago... But he did not shead any light on the nature of Stardates. On a more important note, keep tinkering!

[BRY]

I've not had success with RTP, I seem to catch my rear leg in a buoy or in the water from time to time. It gets pulled out, nasty fall. Can't ski in any double boot system that holds my rear heel down. A rear with some sort of heel cup is perfect for me. Currently using an "R" style, lots of mobility while still keeping me in. Used to be double Animals (rear a size up and loose) then PowerShells now Reflex with R. Each step up seemed better with minimal acclimation.