Than's RTP transition log

[UWSkier]

@Than_Bogan here you go m8! Stardate Calculator

[Wish]

Not gonna start my own log so stealing Thans but will say... Stardate, 7-11-16. 3rd set on RTP. How the hell does anyone get up with the back foot in the toe loop and why the hell can't I.? I know skiers do it. After a couple nose fulls I abandoned and went with back foot out and got better at kicking foot in. So just free skied at 32 off 34mph. And then decided to attempt mini course. Only I could not stop the ski from swinging wide enough to go just inside the reds. Made a few passes like that shadowing very close. I think if it was 28 off I may have run it. Still unnerving but chasing the balls kept my mind off my back foot so will be just running the course with it from here forward. Seemed a lot faster. Not sure if that was perception or reality. I think both. I was really surprised to swing out that far with as little ooomph as I was giving it. Promising for sure.

[Than_Bogan]

Stardate 013522.1 Set #3. I did what I should have done the first day: Open water at 34/-28. This really felt awful for a few "passes," but slowly and steadily improved. It seemed that I might have figured out how to stand on the ski, so I went into the course. I missed my first one, but made the second one.

 

Stardate 013522.2 Set #4. I headed back into the course, using my "normal" opening pass of 34/-28. I "tripped" early in my first attempt, but then ran 4 (or so) in a row. The last two actually felt sorta decent. @MikeT in the boat said I looked pretty good, although it still felt pretty strange.

 

So 4 sets in and I can almost reliably run my opening pass.

 

I do feel some potential, though. The ski definitely seems faster (which is kinda crazy because this proto Denali is FAST). And even though my offside still felt a bit out of control, I noticed the ski casting wider than usual, which could come in very handy at -38!

 

One thing I think I've learned is that you really need to kick in hard with an RTP. I definitely started skiing a little better when I gave it everything I had to jam my foot forward as soon as I got out of the water.

 

All that said, I'm pretty sure now that the Wiley RTP is not the way to go for me. One of the reasons that I didn't shorten to -32 was that my foot was still moving around just a little -- especially in the vicinity of my offside turn. I think I need something with just a little more "holding" power. Don't know yet if that's as simple as a thicker pad that molds to my foot, or if I'll only ever feel comfortable with a partial boot like the Radar HRT.

 

This is definitely a learning experience. I think even if someday I give up and go back to full double boot, I will have become a better skier from this.

[Than_Bogan]

@UWSkier Faster-than-light travel greatly complicates the notion of time. I better not say much more or people's nerdometers will be shattering. (The readings are off the scale, Captain!)

[Gloersen]

@OldboyII - this is similar and will direct mount. The upward deflection of the toes and ball of the foot will feel odd at first.

 

HO Chop Top RB

[ScarletArrow]

@wish I have a wide foot, so I have to put my foot in the RTP while in the water... I could never slip it in after starting.

[UWSkier]

It's been since around the turn of the century that I made the switch to double boots, but I still recall the feeling of my heel sliding laterally every once in a while in my old HO ART (Adjustable Rear Toe) plate. Was always a bit unnerving, but I never actually came out of the thing.

[mmosley899]

@Than_Bogan I had the same problem on my off side with the rtp, my heel slid sideways...

[Wish]

@Than_Bogan looks like you and I felt the bump in speed. As said, I was just gonna run the mini course at 32 off 34mph and ended up turning just inside the full course balls. Far less load to accomplish this. Barely even tugged on the line. My toe kick is not right either. The stuff I put down as a foot bed has some slip to it and not enough grip. Great for kicking in, bad for going across the wake. My foot actually went further into the toe kick with each crossing.

[ForrestGump]

Rossi and Asher both told me to run front binding forward with RTP.

[ozski]

@Than_Bogan making the switch was always going to be interesting and entertaining but the real news will be the half a pass you pickup on the sharp end :wink: And of course the footage of your dock starts which is without doubt the single biggest motivating factor for any skier to make the change.

[gmut]

@Than_Bogan found a large HO boot with laces on a pivot plate. Removed the top lace and tightened the bottom lace really tight across the front of my rear foot. My heal moves freely up and down but I feel locked in with laces tight across front of rear foot. Literally no break in required. I call it my training wheels for a rear toe piece.

[ozski]

@gmut Pretty much the same type of thing I'm doing but I added some rubber under the front laces so that I can increase the pressure over my foot.

[gmut]

@ozski great idea. I was actually thinking of a way to make the the front a little more snug. Gonna give it a try.

[fu_man]

@DumbAss

 

"Rossi and Asher both told me to run front binding forward with RTP."

 

I have seen this recommended on @Chris Rossi settings. Wondering why?

[Waternut]

I tried to follow most of this but I'm sure I missed some. If your confidence is struggling because your foot keeps moving around, you should really try an RTP more like the radar adjustable RTP. I made a seamless transition 4ish years ago. Thought it would be a stuggle but once I started skiing, my back foot felt so secure that I only thought about it before and after the course.

 

Things I've learned.....

1. Kicking in really hard should only be for feelings of security and personal feel. If you have to do that to ski properly, move the RTP back slightly.

2. I like my big toe to stick out of the front. That way if I flex my foot in panic, my toes go up and make it more secure.

3. Adjustable RTP's do need to be retightened occasionally.

[Than_Bogan]

Stardate 013527.5 Set #5 (sort of). I mounted up a D3 RTP. I think the thicker pad is closer to a style that I will be comfortable with. It seems to hold onto my foot quite a bit better. However, I found it to have a design flaw that prevented me from be able to ski much with it as is. I have already reported this to D3.

 

The basic issue is that the toe loop itself is much too far forward on the plate. This means that my foot is too close (literally jamming my toes on each turn) without significantly changing my setup (which thankfully is possible due to the G10 plate). It also means that my toes hang well past where the foam pad goes, which is clearly not acceptable, but I think I can patch with some spare adhesive-backed foam I have.

 

With all the love for the Radar RTP products, though, I'll definitely get some to try!

[parkerc2112]

About to try the Wylie rtp. Radar adjustable just tears up too easily

[disland]

I like the old HO RTP footbed, of course they dont make it any more. No idea if the new stuff is any good

[Andre]

@Than_Bogan

Lifelong kicker user here. Always hated how the rubber loop was too far forward.

For the last 10 years i have drilled extra holes in the mounting plate and move back the rubber loop so it fit more toward the ankle/middle of the foot giving me a more solid grip on the ski. I can still safely release from it in a fall but i like the solid connection to the ski it give me...

Good luck!

[adkh2oskier]

I went to a the RTP about 20 yrs ago from double high wraps mainly for lower back issues w deep water starts. Once you get used to it, it is worth it. In all those years I have only missed one kick in at a tournament and only once had my rear foot slip out in the course, trying to do a hero recovery from a really late turn on the off side. I have a fat foot and really like the Connelly Vision toe plate which you probably cant find anywhere since it was last produced about 10 yrs ago. It has a nice deep pocket for your heel to sit in and prevents it from slipping. Just looked on Barts and they actually have it w a Pivot plate for $50.

[Chef23]

Some RTPs like the Radar allow you to move the rubber on the plate. You might want to look at the bottom of the plate to see if you can move it back.

[JohnN]

Feeling your pain, @Than_Bogan! I'm in the process of switching to Supershell/R-style after a couple of decades in double Animals/HO high wraps. The switch to the Supershell was painless and loving it, the switch to the R-style had me struggling to make any kind of pass. After about 6-8 sets on it I'm hitting about 50% great feeling passes and 50% can't make 28. Seems like there's hope, but it's not there yet. On the plus side the comfort and release from the Reflex system is incredible compared to the Animals.

[mmosley899]

@JohnN you might find that rotating your back foot will improve your consistency. I moved to a half boot rear after many years in double hard shell boots. The rubber boots allow you to rotate your foot, but the hard shell rear locks it in more. Try moving the heel slightly to the inside.

[Waternut]

Here are the two RTP's that I have. The first is an older HO RTP (I think). It has some padding under the foot and it appears to be holding my foot pretty well from a side view. However, looking from the back, there are large gaps that just don't conform to my foot very well. Even after 4 or so years of skiing with RTP's, this is not confidence inspiring and it's not easy to get my foot into.

 

 

The second is my Radar ARTP. It looks like it has a lot of padding but really it's pretty thin padding under the forefoot and heel and actually a lot thinner than the HO RTP above. The rest is really just there as support to keep the foot from sliding around. Looking from the back, this RTP fits more like a shoe and completely conforms to my foot. So not only is it comfortable like a full boot, it's confidence inspiring as well.

 

[Horton]

I rarely have water ski dreams but last night I dreamt that I was skiing on my Warp with a kicker. If that is not strange enough I also dreamt that my wife called to say I got a box from @eddie_roberts_jr and when I got home I found a short ski box full of wooden row boat paddles.

[Than_Bogan]

Radar ARTP ordered! :)

[Chef23]

Can you kick into the Radar ARTP? I get up with one foot in and don't want to change.

[Than_Bogan]

Sure looks like you can. Conveniently, since it is adjustable, you can try mine some time!

[Than_Bogan]

Meanwhile D3 has responded that they agree with my criticisms and are already working on a better version. So refreshing to get an honest response -- but then again also pretty common in this industry! Gotta love it.

[eddie_roberts_jr]

Oh good John, the paddles showed up?

[Horton]

@eddie_roberts_jr yes

[mmosley899]

@Than_Bogan try the Radar HRT! See photos in thread above...

[Waternut]

@chef23 Yes I kick into my Radar ARTP every time I get up. If anything, I think it's a little easier to kick into because it's a soft neoprene-like material instead of a grippy rubber. I run mine pretty tight and kind of creep my foot in the last half inch or so. Our lake is about 2000 ft long and I ski at 34mph. I've got just enough time to kick in, wipe my face, and adjust my shorts before I need to cut out for the gates.

[Than_Bogan]

@mmosley899 I probably will get to that one.

[Than_Bogan]

Set #6. I couldn't figure out how to make the D3 work without very substantial modification, so I decided I'd go back to the Wiley until I can get my hands on the Radar options.

 

After a few decent passes at -28, I thought I might be comfortable at -32. Nope -- not yet. Just doesn't feel secure enough for that kind of quickness and acceleration.

 

Set #7. Decided to add a little wing (from 8 to 8.5) as a test. This definitely felt a little more secure on the off-side, and I think suggests that moving further forward and/or adding more wing will be helpful. But I think I'm going to need something that at least feels more secure than the Wiley before I can progress into shorter lines.

 

I'm definitely learning about how skis work and about my own technique (flaws). And every set feels a little more comfortable.

[JohnN]

@mmosley899 Thanks for the tip, I may use that for fine tuning. Another R-style user recommended adding a buckle into the unused holes a little higher toward the ankle. I did that (loosely) and it added quite a bit of stability. 32s were feeling much better and consistent until 35. Haven't crashed on it yet to test release, and I can still pull my foot out easily at the end of the set. Feeling better each set...

[mmosley899]

@JohnN the buckle was removed from those holes and moved down for safety reasons. I don't recommend putting a buckle there as it may inhibit a safe release. Just slightly tighten the top buckle to achieve the same results.

[Mateo_Vargas]

I heard when they dug up those Atari cartridges that were buried in the eighties in a landfill in New Mexico that they found thousands of RTPs in the layer underneath them.

[Ralph Lee]

@Than_Bogan I wear a size 13 shoe and use a custom RTP. I have moved the rubber back almost 3 inches from retail stock settings enabling my foot to kick in further for support.

[Triplett]

@Than_Bogan I am interested in how you like the ARTP. I dont feel like it would be tight enough. My loop starts to rip after about two years of use and it always affects my skiing. Plus I feel like I am going to die because my foot will just slip out. For reference, I have a radar RTP, which is very similar to a Wileys, just with a soft, foam like foot pad. Very adjustable. Also a life long user of the kicker.

[Than_Bogan]

So ... many ... choices ...

 

I don't think I even realized that Radar makes a "regular" RTP, too. So Radar alone has three options!?

[Chef23]

@Than_Bogan I didn't like the Radar regular RTP. I have the footbed at home if you want to try it. I took the rubber off and put it on my HO RTP.

[Gloersen]

motivated by @Than_Bogan - adding .02 cents to the blog.

 

switched from an R-style to Radar ARTP Sunday for what we all seek; more buoys, but fundamentally to get the COM more forward. It's going to take a lot of work.

 

Tried so two years ago from a rear Wiley to HO floating RTP; no success.

 

This transition has been more favorable; the R-style had been cut-down a bit in the back and the Radar ARTP is very snug if the foot is placed all the way forward and then laced quite snug, so the feel not too dissimilar. Can't leave it at this laced "setting" and "kick-in" though, it has to be re-tightened each time on the platform and a two feet-in start; feels like an easy two feet in trick ski start.

 

 

No changes to FB position or fin.

 

Set 1 was awkward but ran a few passes at the end. Set 2 rotated the ARTP a tad due to the heel always falling off the foot pad to the left, but will go back to straight. Started to feel more secure at end of set 2. By set 4 it felt that "standing tall" in the glide and into each apex was more easily achieved as well as more critical.

 

Notable differences(+/-):

 

- better glide

- seemed to carry off the 2nd wake with less effort

- much quicker turns, especially heelside

 

- coming up through the wakes (notably heelside cut - could be magnified by RTP rotation and toes to right of center)

- less tolerant of moving fore/aft on the ski

- lack of a secure foot feeling

 

Time will tell if it aids improvement, its worth sticking with it for a few weeks, but if the different feel doesn't lead to focusing on fixing the myriad of fundamental flaws (substantiated by video); probably won't lead to more buoys.

 

 

 

 

[mwetskier]

this year i transitioned from double strada boots to the same radar front boot with a r-style reflex rear binding. after a few sets of feeling like i couldn't get my com over my from foot i added a 1/4 inch spacer under the r-style rear. that made all the difference and i became instantly comfortable so you may want to consider that your rtp is the same height foot bed as your front boot. if its lower it will probably force your com back a bit which you prolly don't want.

[Than_Bogan]

I received an HO RTP that I ordered a while back, so I thought I'd slap it on, but no such luck: The hole pattern is different and I'll need to move some studs under my G10 plate. However, the good news is I think I can pick two spots that will work with all of the RTPs.

 

But for these sets, I was still on the Wiley.

 

Set #8. I went forward a bit more, just with the front boot. I am now 5/16" further forward than I was with dual boot. This seemed to help, although of course I am also just getting more used to it each time out. I ran -28,-28,-32,-32,-28,-28, which marked two milestones: First time I ran every pass in a set and first time I ran -32.

One odd thing is that I was completely exhausted after the first -32 and I don't even know how I managed three more passes. I don't have a great theory for why that was.

 

Set #9. This was pretty short. I was still mostly out-of-gas and then another boat came through. But my comfort level continued to improve. I was even giving a little thought to trying a -35. Still, the Wiley just isn't giving a secure feeling, so I'm pretty sure my final answer will be a different RTP.

[lcgordon]

Wanted to try a buddies new ski last night and it has a rtp. Ran my opener on it but it was the worst pass I have ever skied and made I think.

[ozski]

Here is a question, does anyone think running double boots is all downside compared to an RTP? Strictly speaking performance of course, safety is another argument altogether. Rather than a transition why not a better designed rear boot or rear boot setup? Something that is still a rear boot but allows freedom of movement that equals the RTP.. A hinged full rear boot that allows some heel lift and even swivel?

[pregom]

@ozski water telemarking?

[Wish]

Second set on the RTP in the course. Don't know why but I just started at 32off like normal. First pass scored 2. Second pass 3. and 3-4th pass was 4 and 5 buoys. Pretty much had an "I'm gonna make this" and blew 5 ball. Progress is better then expected. Had to hone the toe loop and now it seems to fit well. Perhaps a big key. Leaning to kick in better has also helped. The habit of placing weight on the rear foot is hard to break. It just feels more secure when the heal is down and find myself falling back more than I like. Safety move for sure. But the ability to stand tall with COM much further forward then on my system is obvious and easy. Being comfortable with that is something else.