Is there a Zero Off Easter egg?

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee Yes and no.

 

ZO was not the beginning of the apocalypse but is was one of many factors that has diminished the sport. Now that we have it, I do not think very many skiers want to go back but it surely pushed some skiers to quit in the first few years.

[Horton]

What Butternut said!

[Milford]

Back in the old days before speed control, a good driver would apply throttle to compensate for a skiers pull and as soon as the skier released, the driver would back off the throttle, as to not let the boat run on the skier who was approaching the buoy. When speed control came along, perfect pass did a nice job but if the driver was not adjusting for wind speed, skier weight or skiers pull, you could get out of tolerance times. Zero off took all of that out of the equation, but left the bigger, more aggressive skiers shaking their head, wondering what just happened to the quality of their ride.

 

If a steering control system came along and was a reality, would you want a system that was so focused on holding center line that it would correct as the skier is approaching the buoy or would you want one that was programmed to react immediately and correct as the skier is in their pull and then hold whatever line was achieved during that pull?

 

There are many ways to achieve good times and a straight boat path, but the way in which you handle the boat has huge effect on the skier. A driver using ZO speed control can give or take 6 buoys from a skier, just by the way they handle the boat. Speed control can do the same thing, especially if you are a 200 lb. short line skier who used to use a Perfect Pass R factor of 90. So what wrong with exploring other options to improve the ride for those who would like it. I don't think anyone is talking about taking any of the current settings away, just adding another for those that wish to have a different experience.

 

@Horton - I agree, I don't think ZO needs to do anything to make this happen as it is a simple change in software that could be uploaded to any current ZO boat. Heck, just add the ability to do all buoy timing to trick mode and approve it for tournament use and I would be very excited. Call it the "D" setting.

 

 

 

 

[Dirt]

What Butterfield and Milford said.

 

Talk to Ron or Terry Goodman about the disadvantage heavier skiers face with ZO.

 

@MS

 

[Ralph Lee]

I've skied in 2 tournaments, both before I knew anything about Zero Off. I was blown away how foreign it felt, I skied terrible, and HATED the pull!! Only having access to PP it did discourage me away from amateur tournaments.

 

I have since joined a ski club solely for the purpose of equaling my ZO and PP scores. 2nd summer in and I'm still nowhere close to what I can do behind legit PP times. Not going to quit, but I flat out can't stand skiing behind ZO if compared...

[Dirt]

The slap to MS is just because he hates kids

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee that is how many of us felt 6-7 years ago. Believe it or not the current ZO is better than the first few years.

[Than_Bogan]

I completely agree with the goal of "same pull for all skiers." If that is an expect of "Trick Mode ZO," then that aspect is extremely positive in my mind.

 

However, the most reliable way to do that is to have essentially no speed deviation at all, which I believe will feel like a super-hard pull. If that makes the sport harder, that aspect could be a good thing (long term). If that makes skiers more likely to get hurt, that aspect could be a VERY bad thing.

 

As usual, there are tradeoffs to be considered in all of these options.

[skihacker]

Zero off for sure pushed me out of tournaments, at the time I had no way to get any practice with a zo boat. My last try at a tournament I missed my opener 3 times. Its been many years and it has gotten better but I haven't been back.

[Horton]

@skihacker very sorry to hear that

[skihacker]

A quick additional comment regarding different boats, to this day for whatever reason I can't ski a 196 no matter what the setting, way too rubber bandy, but my buddy's 200 at c2+ feels to me really close to my tug with pp.

[Horton]

@skihacker odd. The 196 is an all-time favorite for a reason

[skihacker]

I know, I love the wake, in florida i've skied a few older ones with pp and love them, just zo boats, maybe with more time behind one I would adjust but no access.

[Horton]

@skihacker yes time and ski rides heals ZO hate

[GregHind]

Before we got too excited how about checking times bother overall and buoy. Is this new mode making correct time?

 

To check it, all you need is the display, GPS module and master module of any PP version 8 system. Mechanical is fine. Just hook it up to power using clips if you like. Map the course and run it. It will tell you all about the times trick mode is pulling. You don't need a servo motor, rpm, smart timer or anything else even plugged in.

 

It would take me 5 minutes to set that up, but I don't have suitable boat/skier to test at the required level.

 

@Jody_Seal will you do this for us? Does trick mode make good buoy and overall times?? PP will tell us once and for all

 

No point hearing how easy it is if the times are wrong.

[ozski]

Why not give back a certain level of customization back to the skier via a mobile app that can sync with ZO? I can visualize a simple slide type UI that would allow you to choose time and intensity from gate to ball to ball within a certain range. When its your ride throw your mobile into the boat and it dumps your settings in and away you go. That does put it back on the skier if they choose to go outside the standard pull options and it would be pretty cool.

[MattP]

@ozski do we really need more tech involved?

[ozski]

I don't think so but I'm not skiing behind a range of different boats and suffering the disadvantage that some skiers clearly feel. In the spirit of the discussion I'm throwing out a possible solution because you can't please all of the people all of the time. And keep in mind its an option not a must have. If ZO was on their game it would be easy enough to commercialize through a subscription model... I think its an obvious evolution to the product as the IoT will become the norm in many areas of our lives over the next few years. Imagine the data you could mine and use to better understand your skiing, passes run, falls, loads, duration...etc etc What a great tool.

[Horton]

@ozski because that is a whole other level of change and complexity. That is a rules, hardware and software change that is would cost way more than anyone is ready to commit to.

 

This idea has legs. Lets not get too far off track. Please.

 

Almost gave you a panda but I can't blame your for dreaming.

[Ralph Lee]

@ozski cool idea though. We must think out of the box.

[JackQ]

A couple of points need clarification, NO speed control or manual driver keeps a constant speed, or anything remotely close.

 

I participated in many hours of analysis of top tier drivers when Accuski was developing speed control. The speed of the boat looks like a "rolling" Sine wave when the skier and drive are in sync. If I recall correctly we calculated that you would need about 500-600 hp to keep a constant speed, and you would get so much throttle on the pull, most skiers would not run a pass. The art is to how much throttle to apply, when to initiate and for how long. Too long and you never release from the boat, too short and the skier get pulled up or out.

 

I also have a hard time understanding the heavy skier issue, as a 210 pd skier with a strong pull, I skied behind Accuski and PP in practice until last year and had no issues ski behind Zero Off in tournaments. I find in heavy tail winds the ability of ZO to not run away from you laudatory.

[Horton]

When I woke up this morning I read a very serious email from a long time Baller who respectfully but strenuously objected to the following text.

“What if it takes some of Smith's dominance away? Nothing against Nate but it is boring seeing him win everything.”

 

Any time a Baller writes me a 300 word email complaining about something I said I have to think about it. What I said was flippant and really did not express what I was thinking. I was certainly not attempting to disparage Smith or his accomplishments.

 

To be perfectly clear Nate Smith may be the greatest slalom skier in history. His dominance appears to exceed that of Mapple or LaPoint or anyone else. His dominance is the result of 3 things 1) pure talent 2) relentless work ethic 3) genetics.

 

What I was contemplating when I wrote the above quote was the fact that Nate’s genetics (his light frame) gives him an advantage that is compounded by the current standard ZO program. Most of the rest of the top pro skiers in the world weigh 15 to 30 pounds more than Nate. The current ZO program punishes skiers whose technique is heavier on the line and for skiers who are simply larger human beings this is more difficult.

 

The fact that Nate wins almost every event he enters is not news to anyone who is paying attention. His fans and sponsors love it but that does not make for a better spectator event.

 

The same is true for Freddy Krueger. I personally like Freddy as a person and have mixed feelings any time he does not win an event. When Freddy goes big and so does Ryan and Bojan that is a better show. It might really be better for the sport when Ryan or Bojan win.

 

The best show in water skiing might be woman’s slalom. Regina & Whit are almost equal and Manon is creeping up on them.

 

So will a new ZO mode become a real thing? I have no idea. If it becomes a real thing will it benefit heavier skiers? That is my speculation. Will this new mode stop Nate Smith’s domination? Unlikely but it might shake things up a little.

 

[Mateo_Vargas]

I'm still trying to figure out why we are talking about Easter when Christmas hasn't even come yet?

[Horton]

I have been advised by an industry professional that I am steering this in the wrong direction. Instead of talking about Nate I should be talking about how we can all drink more beer with trick mode and still run 38.;

[Gar]

now that's a plan!

[DW]

@Horton while on the subject of a physical advantage coupled to the equipment used in the sport, why don't we add normalizing the bottom of foot to end of handle rope dimension to also equalize that part of the sport?

[Horton]

@scotchipman

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@scotchipman the issue is not heavier skiers getting a slower time (slower speed), it is that they get a stronger acceleration (force from the boat), that puts them at a disadvantage compared to a lighter skier.

 

I know I could ski more buoys with my favorite hand driver getting a 16.85 than I could from ZO getting a 17.10. It's all in the amount and timing of throttle applied.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@DW I'll agree to that when the lighter skiers agree to strap weights inside their vest to equalize every skier's weight.

 

There is no fair way to compensate for skier's physical differences, nor should we try. The issue is getting the boat to respond with at least a similar amount of throttle (acceleration and force) so everyone can get the "same pull".

[Ralph Lee]

When coached by Mapple, Chet, and K. Lapoint, they all asked me my PB?After I answered, each one responded almost identically, "Ok, what's your PB behind ZO?" All three of them explained how a bigger skier is disadvantaged by ZO, and spent most the session helping me "trick the system" ZO shouldn't pander to fat asses, but it seems like there is room to improve!

[Horton]

@scotchipman this is not about boat times this is about how the throttle response to the skier. And - no back in the perfect past days a good driver would not let the times get out of hand

[Milford]

In my opinion, it is not about how much throttle is applied, it is about how long the throttle has to stay down passed centerline. ZO seems to only care about getting good times and doesn't care about how it gets those times. My understanding is that ZO is programmed to only accelerate a certain limited amount, once the skier engages it, but has no limitation on how long it can stay on the throttle to achieve good times. Lighter skiers benefit from not getting gassed by the boat once they have changed edges into the buoy because it doesn't require as much response to get back to good times. Heavier skiers take more from the boat, so the boat has to apply that limited power longer to get back to ideal times, resulting in the boat running on a heavier skier, after edge change.

 

Trick mode does not seem to have any of these throttle limitations and will apply as much throttle as needed to get back to speed as quickly as possible. The result is that the boat is not continuing to accelerate once the skier has changed edges into the buoy. You can really hear this in the comparison videos earlier in this thread. Notice how much more the rpm's swing in trick mode?

[Ralph Lee]

@Milford Have you spent any substantial time experimenting with the trick mode?

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@scotchipman if the driver was doing his job with PP, he would get nearly actual times regardless of the skier. In the PP days when I showed up on the dock, the drivers who knew me would add at least 30rpm on top of my weight for the first pass, then adjust from there. Certainly by the 3rd pass, they would be right on the money. The drivers who didn't know me would be madly punching the up arrow after the first pass, which sometimes made for interesting 2nd and 3rd passes, but again, they were shooting for actuals. Certainly the drivers who pulled the elite level skiers knew how much more to add for the given skier/style.

 

This is not to say that some drivers didn't try for the slow side of tolerance, but those who did, did it regardless of skier weight/pull strength.

 

With regards to Nate, again the issue is that heaver skiers are currently at a disadvantage compared to a beanpole like him. If corrections are made to ZO, he may very well still dominate - he is a heck of a skier after all - but the playing field will be more level.

 

@Mark_Matis you're on the right track. If the acceleration (throttle input) is limited, a stronger pulling skier will have more of a speed swing, but will require a slightly faster initial speed to maintain the actual average speed over the length of the course. And if the driver was shooting for actuals, there is no way a strong skier would be able to pull the boat out of tolerance. The only time rerides would arise was if the driver was "trying to help the skier" by pushing the edge of the tolerance.

[Milford]

@Ralph Lee - our group has played with it enough to be convinced that we need to explore further. I ski with Nick and was the peson running the camera when he skied in the earlier videos. We probably have 25 sets between 3 of us in trick mode. Not saying that trick mode is the ultimate answer, but good conversation to motivate the powers that be to keep exploring a better option then what is available today.

[Ralph Lee]

@Milford thanks for the response!

[Gar]

In the end the best skier wins on that day under the conditions that exist.

[GregHind]

Doesn't sound like the change would disadvantage or hold back the light skiers. Maybe we should leave Nate out of this. Its not about him, but the heavier people that would benefit.

 

I'm surprised to hear that classic PP was "lighter" after the second wake on the big guys. It doesn't gas as much while skiers pull so PP had to make up the time somewhere.

 

@Milford can you get a hold of a stargazer mechanical module & display, hook it up to power, map the course and get it to verify times of zero off trick mode? You don't need to even connect the servo motor cable let alone hook any of that stuff up to the motor. Just power up the electronics, tape the GPS module onto the dash with double sided tape, sit the display anywhere and let it time the course.

 

I really want to know if trick mode, with a top skier is pulling actual times. If not, all our discussion so far is a moot point because it might be a "nicer" pull but if the times are off, it is irrelevant.

 

[Milford]

@GregHind - Would love to try to accommodate your request, but this is what we are dealling with for the next 3 months...

 

But seriously - there are people working on this and doing exactly what you are asking, only using a reprogrammed version of ZO to achieve the times. I am anxious to hear the results. The bottom line is that the right people need to be working on this, or we are all just wasting our time, keeping busy, until the lake thaws. I am hopeful...

[Horton]

@Milford i was considering a Panda for @GregHind but he was not asking me to do stuff so i let it go

[LeonL]

For,those concerned about times, can't you get your hands on a Lockett (or equivalent) and time your passes. Surely some of you still have magnets on your course.

[Drago]

@LeonL remember those had their problems as well. We are talking about hundredths here with 20 year old magnets.

@Bruce_Butterfield I told drivers to enter 240 when I weighed 195-200. Slow times actually suck (ed). A constantly slowing boat = slack

[Drago]

@Mark_Matis agreed, as long as they are the same age (?). Well, anyway... I think Milford is right, the trick mode probably has less duration, as a tricker rarely gets out of the white wash

[LeonL]

I'm not aware of any problems with Lockett timers. As a matter of fact, When I got my first ZO boat (2008) I too had my doubts about ZO telling me what virtual times it ran. Kinda like the fox minding the henhouse. So, I used my old Lockett timer and sure enough tfhey agreed. Sometimes off by .01, but mostly matching exactly. Based on that I have full trust in both systems to be correct in regards to timing. You should be able to run ZO in trick mode and time with a Lockett, or equivalent, and be confident in the info.

[jcamp]

If Chris Parrish isn't all over this yet, he really should be ...

[Roger]

@CParrish43 - What do you think?

[Horton]

I skied today for the first time in almost 2 months, I used a ski I haven't used in 6 months and the fin settings have been changed since I used it last. So needless to say I didn't feel very at home on the water but after I finally stopped scaring myself i switched from slalom to trick mode. No question trick mode is the real deal. The thing that I noticed the most is that the power comes off so fast at edge change.

 

@brooks what the heck did you do to the fin settings on my Lithium? I might get used to it after a couple of rides but holy moly.

[Ralph Lee]

@Horton Could you tell you were on B2?

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee no. It felt like a completely different program. On the other hand it was only a few passes in December so...

[Dirt]

I tried it two days ago. I was on a new ski and had just moved the rear binding back prior to this ride. It was my last pass at 32 off in 48 degree water. It felt easier and slower. The boat crew said they could hear the difference in engine sound.

 

They both tried it and the lighter one said it felt the same. The heavier skier said it felt as Horton described above.