Is there a Zero Off Easter egg?

[Gar]

Accuski seemed better!

[jjackkrash]

I seem to recall reading that ZO can actually accomplish a near constant-speed-brick-wall pull, but this approach was abandoned due to skier complaints, and hence the myriad of choices about the "type of pull" the skier wants. Is this true?

 

If the tech exists to give a constant-speed pull to every skier but this tech was abandoned, its a shame, IMO. If the ZO mapping is intentionally building in speed-variation tolerances that don't need to be there to give the pull a "better feel" based on "skier preference," then this is heart of the fairness problem, IMO. Every competitor ought to get a no-mercy, constant-speed brick wall if the tech exists to give this type of pull.

[ozski]

That theory might sound ok but its never going to be possible to deliver that across the board and more people will probably exit the sport as a result. I think a system that responds to skier input is the way forward for a couple of reasons but mainly because its probably going to be the most repeatable solution (in terms of feel to the skier) that spans a range of different boats and engines. Freight train mode has already been tried and discounted as far as I am aware. And on a side note you also need to think about what such a mode will do to a skiers body, this sport is tough enough.

[BG1]

From what I remember the original Zero Off stayed between 34.0 when the skier loaded to 34.4 when the load was released. It was at 34.2 before the skier turned in for the gates and when the skier was at the buoys. Throttle response was quick. Zero Off now has much greater speed swings in an attempt to make it feel more like PP to appease all of the complainers. That's where the ABC-123 came in and they screwed it up for me. I never could understand why skiers would say the boat was hammering them when they were actually slowing the boat down while loading. The problem was that the pull was no longer mushy and it required more strength and control through and off the wakes. Get that right and you were wide, early, and slow.

[BG1]

Maybe some of the skiers using trick mode for slalom could get a passenger to watch the Zero Off speedometer to see what the speed swings are.

[Ralph Lee]

If ZO would of figured out a software update for around $2K instead of around $5k, there would of been much less complaining.

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee I am not sure if your post deserves a Panda or a "Whatcha talkin' bout Willis?" so I am awarding you both.

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

 

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

 

[Ralph Lee]

@Horton Lol!! Maybe I got into your bottle of scotch... Would upgrade instead of update made sense? Typo

[MISkier]

@Horton, I think he is referring to the cost of retrofitting ZO and the eControls ECM to older boats and that it has been prohibitive for some to be able to match their practice boat to tournament.

[Horton]

"Jody" the Panda is the Arbiter of bad information. Jody does not discriminate between incidental typos and flagrant misunderstandings. In retrospect 2 Pandas AND a Gary Coleman might have been severe. @Ralph Lee wear it as a badge of honor.

 

To get an old boat up to spec for ZO is mostly a hardware upgrade and can run over $10,000. Software updates on the other hand are free if you own the correct cable and have the correct knowledge.

[Ralph Lee]

@Horton I will be watching your Arnold compilation the rest of my day. Classic!

[Horton]

FYI where is the theory about trick mode that is yet to be flushed out... it will be friendlier for people who practice behind Perfect Pass. I am aware that there are people that think it will be the exact opposite. I guess we'll find out in the spring

[Horton]

A little Yeti anyone?

 

[The_MS]

My insiders tell me that ZO has been working on a new pull since early 2016. Should be ready for release by Nats 2017.

 

[Horton]

@MS really? The Canadian winter is getting to you and you are making stuff up?

[Ralph Lee]

@MS Very interesting... Be careful, my insider cost me a bottle of liquor to Horton.

[Gloersen]

@MS types truth

[Horton]

@MS seems to forget about the last time @bonehead and I got drunk and hijacked his account.

[skidawg]

@Horton ...that was entertaining

[Horton]

In the world of fake news i am the wrong person to mess with

[Dirt]

My ski partner and I skied 5 passes and then our last pass skied trick mode again today. We both had the same observation. Trick mode seemed slower and easier. The air was 49. Water 46. Our 82+ year old driver said it was easier to drive trick mode.

I am hoping when it warms up we can ski some shorter rope and really test it.

[Intheday]

Okay, correct me if I am wrong. Skiing trick mode in Zero Off is okay or desirable because it is easier than Zero Off slalom mode but Perfect Pass is not okay because it is easier than Zero Off slalom mode?

 

Can we not make Zero Off the imitate Perfedt Pass then both are easier and a whole lot of boats become relevant without repowering

 

I know it's not going to happen but it makes sense to me.

 

This sport is nuts

[Wish]

@Intheday carefull, you might get an "off topic" or "dislike". I said basically the same thing on previous page and it was not well received. PP folks tend to be viewed as lower class citizens around these parts. As a business model it would be silly for ZO to emulate PP. There would be no incentive to take out a second mortgage to convert or buy into a ZO boat increasing their sales. Considering the two most viewed threads right now, It's hard not agree with your last statement :smile:

[MISkier]

I don't think a total emulation of PP would ever happen. Bigger skiers can get out of tolerance times (or at the very bounds of tolerance) with PP. Even using the trick mode or some similar new pull type, ZO will not let the times vary that much, even with the "friendlier" pull.

 

You might get a different pull that is similar to PP, but it probably will still not match the PP systems in use exactly.

[Horton]

@wish @MISkier @Intheday yes this should be another thread. With some luck this thread will stay on topic and will push for some new cruise programing in the future. With luck we will move to a state where the delta between boats will be and engines is less AND the delta between ZO and the PP in older boats will be smaller. We should all hope for that result.

 

How we got the current programing ZO and how PP became obsolete for tournaments is a COMPLETELY different subject. Feel free to start another thread and you will likely get more information than you care to read.

[BG1]

So has anyone watched the speedometer while pulling slalom in trick mode to see what the speed swing of the boat is? If not, would one of you still skiing please check and post it here?

[Horton]

@BG1 Speculating ...

 

the total speed swing is not very different or maybe less. With Trick mode the ZO gives you more revs when you are on the line. The result is the boat is slowed less by the skier and is able back off sooner. The change in revs is more for less time and the change in speed should be less.

 

Because the revs spike more and the engine sounds crazy everyone thinks there is more speed difference. The reality is that the boat is just doing a better job of holding speed.

 

[BG1]

Understood. For me less speed swing would be great. I was just wondering what that speed swing is. Maybe-.2MPH under load and very briefly +.2MPH when the skier releases the load?

[ForrestGump]

Oh, man. That night we hijacked @MS's account was fuuuunnnnyyyy.

[Horton]

@BG1 yeah I agree that is a good question. I have no idea what the answer is but I assume it depends upon the skier.

[DW]

@Horton : Interesting comment on reducing speed swing with ZO. Question; is that not the opposite of the reasoning people feel PP seems to provide an easier pull, does not punish heavy skiers as much (since they can "pull the boat down") and thus allows for higher scores? Certainly the results of trick mode seem to indicate a more friendly pull per the comments of the sampling group.

[Than_Bogan]

@DW I had the exact same thought. I find it hard to believe that staying closer to true speed at all times is going to cause anyone to describe it as "feeling slow" -- as many have in this thread.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I suspect the speed pattern of Trick Mode is just different, and perhaps places the acceleration and deceleration in places that are coincidentally more helpful to the skier.

[MISkier]

I think it is the duration of the speed correction that, when shortened in trick mode, feels better. My thought it is because the boat is not "on you" longer than most would like. Getting free of the boat is what they are actually preferring.

[Horton]

@DW I am NOT an expert on this stuff but have talked a lot of smart folks in the last few months about this stuff. Below is my understanding.

 

With PP a heavy skier could get a slow time if the driver did not adjust the revs enough. PP knows that the revs are decreased but not how much speed is scrubbed off (or something like that). PP is smart but not nearly as smart as ZO. (Maybe this is not as true of StarGazer - IDK)

 

ZO is speed based. The computer is going to do what it has to do to get a perfect time no matter what the skier does. Standard ZO will raise the revs to a set point and dwell there until all lost ground is caught up.

 

So with PP if you pull the boat way down you get a slow time. With the current ZO if you slow the boat down you get more revs until the boat speed is high enough to make up the lost time.

 

It is the duration of extra revs after the edge change that makes ZO challenging for heavier/stronger skiers. Trick mode simply adds more revs to catch up time faster so the ZO can put the revs back down to baseline sooner.

 

I am just waiting for the first lean lock Trick Mode story. Someone may go to shore :)

[Horton]

Just thinking how Trick Mode may make my zig zag & scramble for the boat guides for that last 1/2 ball pretty hairy.

[The_MS]

The best part was all the wonderful support I received from fellow ballers when I came out.

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton That almost makes sense, but I think we're still claiming that making no changes to RPM and making drastic changes to RPM somehow produce the same good effect? But that making "moderate" changes to RPM is bad?

 

That is completely possible -- there are definitely times when the middle option is worse than either end. But it still "does not compute" for me. Ultimately, PP usually got the time right, simply requiring a higher baseline for the heavier pullers. So I can't really buy the "pull it down" theory, except in terms of where it let you slow down and where it accelerated to catch up the average speed.

 

The only thing I can think of that maybe is similar between the two is "leaving you alone" starting around the mid-line. PP achieves that by leaving you alone at all times -- it never adds RPM. Perhaps trick mode does that by hitting you so hard so early that it can get off of you by the mid-line???

 

There may just be a brief zone where adding power is really tough on the skier, and as long as you DON'T do that, it feels good?

 

Maybe this will start to make more sense if I actually get a chance to try it. I'm sure that ice will melt someday...

 

I'm sorry to be wildly speculating in the form of questions, but since I design algorithms for a living, one thing I am very aware of is that understanding exactly what constitutes desired behavior can be critical to improving an algorithm.

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan I am not exactly sure about PP. I thought it always regained any RPMs that the load of the skier took away. The boat would come in hot and every time the skier loaded the rope it tried to keep the RPMs near baseline. You could for sure pull it down but it regained those RPMs more gradually than ZO. My guess is that the speed swing was actually larger and the ramp up and down of revs was more gradual. There are a lot of guesses in the above text.

 

What clearly makes sense to me is that in Trick Mode the ZO adds a bucket of revs when the skier in pulling on the rope and then drops back to baseline as soon as the skier gets off the line.

 

You are not the first person to say that Trick Mode is the exact opposite of PP. I think you have a point but you have to remember that ZO is trying to achieve a perfect time and PP is maintaining revs.

 

I am sure I have stated at least one thing completely wrong in my past few posts. Will Bush will likely chuckle if he reads this.

[scoke]

Last night we shot video of the ZO head unit. Pass in slalom mode then pass in trick mode. Pass after pass. Wild.

 

Very interesting data.

 

It appears the swings in speeds are very close to being the same.

 

The difference comes in the intensity of the reaction.

 

The other difference appears of when it actually reacts to the skier vs a predetermined fixed point (think A-B-C) location style.

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

That sounds like AWESOME data, @scoke. I'm psyched you put in the time and effort to collect it! Can you provide any more details?

[Gloersen]

@Horton - maybe correct - "the total speed swing is not very different or maybe less. With Trick mode the ZO gives you more revs when you are on the line. The result is the boat is slowed less by the skier and is able back off sooner. The change in revs is more for less time and the change in speed should be less. "

 

@scoke - we did the same in Jax today, just -28/34.2

 

In slalom mode A3 speed range =~33.5 to 34.9, the rpm swing was 3719 to 3910

 

In trick mode (A3) speed range = ~33.8 to 34.8, the rpm swing was 3752 to 4030

 

Just a cursory look at it, but to me it seems the speed range is slightly tighter in trick mode and the rpm swing was greater at 278 revs (vs 191 delta revs in slalom mode). This aligns with what @Horton presented.

 

This is not what I was expecting, but it's beginning to make sense to me why trick mode feels somewhat easier (acceleration at hook-up feels less abrupt, but mainly a feeling of being more free of the boat off the 2nd spray). It's not necessarily better results, but maybe it could be with more adaptation. More sampling is required.

 

 

[dbutcher]

How would C3 compare?

[Gloersen]

@dbutcher - hard to say, it's all just curiosity at this point. Like scoke said, the A-B-C settings in trick mode slalom yield a different timing in throttle application. For me A is better, B is decent, C not so much (trick mode). I have no idea how the 1-2-3 settings play out.

 

Until ZO releases an update file (presumption) with published parameters; who knows?

[scoke]

Great video, thanks for posting. Ours was similar but with maybe more swing speed (different engine,prop,pucks)

 

If you freeze the video at the :06 second marks and the 0 beep, you'll notice the gate speed is 34.9. Not surprising as that's just the way it is.

 

Then the gate speed in Trick mode is around 34.4mph. Our video shows the same 34.4 or so as well.

 

[Gar]

Wow!

[Roger]

@scoke - Interesting to note that the 5.3 single puck of Gloersen shows the same 34.9 speed at the gate that your 5.7 single puck does. While I'm pretty sure the speed at the gate when you had dual pucks was 34.7, I'd stick with the single puck if I were you since you will likely only get the 5.3 boats in tournaments (maybe a 6.2 from time to time).

[Horton]

@Roger I wonder if Trick mode changes how we feel about the difference between single or dual pucks

[Roger]

@Horton - I have only tried it behind my own boat (2016 MC ProStar with dual pucks), so I can't compare. However, I felt the same things everyone else has reported, seemed slower and I had more space.

[Mateo_Vargas]

I heard jump mode is even better.

[Horton]

@"Mateo Vargas" no no no