Judging a driver...

[Wish]

In light of the recently posted video of an unfortunate boat path, I have some questions with boat path and what gets done about a poor one..one that may not be that extreme.

 

1. How do you judge the pylon location when the head of a judge is clearly in the way? Use the judges head? Is it vid from stearn direction that gets used?

....I've seen stearn vid of a skier behind a tail wagging Centurian with the pylon pretty straight down the middle.

 

2. How is it decided it is cheating vs just sucky driving when I have heard that it is hard to "help" a skier on such a short line.? A sudden increase in scores aside, what really determines a cheat driver?.

 

4. If it is cheating, what is the judicious procedure for making changes to scores?

 

5. What is the judicious procedure for reviewing further boat paths when one is determined to be out of line?

 

Looking for answers outside of the controversy and emotions. Looking for judges to chime in. It may be a good thing for current and future sites that are taking time and money to put on tournaments. Especially sites that may want to go from class C to an R. Hopefully good info and less emotions can prevail on this thread. Just looking for answeres, not examples....although hypotheticals that can easily explain rules may help.

 

[Wish]

@aupatking asked for some end course vid to show some wagging. This is Nate Smith..extremely efficient skier and guessing one of the easier ones to drive for considering where and how long he loads the line (notice I did not say how hard he loads). Bit of wagging and some boat guide smacking. So questions above still stand..how do you judge this and questions 2-5.

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https://youtu.be/V1CFxn8uvDA

[ALPJr]

Great ad for that boat company!

[Chad_Scott]

1. The boats are actually suggested to have a centerline taped on the windshield for a record tournament. However with the walk thru windshield it makes it a little easier to locate the center and pylon location

 

2. I am no expert on what the committee is looking for. I have often heard them use the term "pattern driving" to benefit the skier. There are tolerances for boat movement and these tolerances are in place when an driver is pulled off the center line. The tolerances are not meant to be aimed for with an intentional weave done to benefit the skier

So in my opinion a cheating driver is a driver who drives with an intentional weave to benefit or increase a skier or group of skiers scores I am told a record which is within tolerance can be denied if the manner of driving is done intentionally to benefit the skier. I guess that goes back to the pattern driving reference.

 

4. As for the process I do not know and I am not part of any committee within USA Waterski. My guess is a determination that pattern driving was evident and occured during the event

 

I am of the understanding that in this case it was the IWSF who decided to pull the scores from the event off of the world standings list. The letter from AWSA indicates that the board will decide what to do with the rest of the scores during the meeting in January as of now the scores have been Dow graded from class L or R to class E

I do not know the process which allows the iwsf to pull the scores from the world standings list

 

 

[Wish]

@Chad_Scott hypothetically what would your pattern look like from boat path vid if you where "helping" a very shortliners skier? Also trying to keep this thread on point of answering general questions not directly related to other thread. More of an informational thread for drivers, judges, tourny directors and the like. Much appreciate your time and input.

[ALPJr]

After another look, imo the center of that boat does move a hole heck of a lot.

[Horton]

@ALPJr I respectfully disagree. The pylon in that video moves very little. It moves but not really a lot. I would call that driving elite world class.

[Chad_Scott]

I have video which I sent to @ Horton of pulling Nate at 41off as well which he may post. What I would describe as pattern driving would be when the boat is obviously moving from side to side with the skier. Ping pong down the lake boat guide to boat guide making the slalom course narrow to benefit the skier I have been fortunate enough to have the opportunity to drive most of the open men's skiers and rather than giving them a few inches at the buoy most of them would rather just finish the turn with a tight line so they can do what they do.

[Chad_Scott]

I agree with Horton. The driving in the video above is world class. The boat can move and pivot while the pylon stays center. Do not focus on the bow or rear of the boat As you look at the video mark a spot on the windshield and you will see that the pylon in the video moves very little

[Wish]

Curious question... Is Nate one of the easier skiers to dive for ...aka..where he loads and for how long?

[Chad_Scott]

Not necessarily Nate is much stronger than people think. He actually bends several handles a year. He pulls and most of the time works in the right place But he can get ahold of you. People misjudge how much Nate loads the boat. It just is mostly in the right place.

[Splasheye]

I've seen that pass before and measured it - some of the best driving I've ever seen at that short a line - and I've seen a lot of EC video

 

Summary (in cm, divide by 2.54 for inches)

 

Average Deviation at Buoy 1: -0.086

Average Deviation at Buoy 2: -7.887

Average Deviation at Buoy 3: 2.738

Average Deviation at Buoy 4: 2.262

Average Deviation at Buoy 5: 3.370

Average Deviation at Buoy 6: -0.484

 

Cumulative Deviation at Buoy 1:(20) -0.086

Cumulative Deviation at Buoy 2:(28) -7.973

Cumulative Deviation at Buoy 3:(35) -5.235

Cumulative Deviation at Buoy 4:(40) -2.973

Cumulative Deviation at Buoy 5:(45) 0.397

Cumulative Deviation at Buoy 6:(49) -0.087

 

To answer @Wish first question - if you can't see the pylon you do the best you can - in this case splitting the center windshield panel. Yes you are measuring a point 2-4 feet in front of the pylon so if the boat is wagging a lot around the pylon there is a small discrepancy, but you can see in the frame-by-frame when that is happening and you make allowances

 

The cumulative deviation will normally catch a driver intentionally helping or hindering the skier. What it won't catch is a driver driving straight but off center. A driver can drive 6" to the right all the way down the course and get an in-tolerance pass with a zero cumulative score. Not sure what that feels like to a shortline skier though! That's why SplashEye EC adds in some extra measures of a drivers performance as an aid to improvement.

 

[LeonL]

@Wish in order to answer your question #1, here is the wording from IWWF (IWSF) rule book.

A mark or small post on the top of the windshield that is visible in the end-course video camera (both directions) shall be placed 20 cm from the centre of the windshield on both sides of the centre to aid in the determination of the 20 cm deviation.

@Chad_Scott used the word "suggested" when mentioning centerline marking. IWWF rules states a 5cm strip on the center of the windshield will be used. In the two marks it says "shall" and in the single center mark it's says "will".

With full respect to Chad, suggested or otherwise, Having noted the above, has any one of you ever seen such markings or "posts" on a boat in any tournament C,E,L,R? I personally have not.

 

[ALPJr]

@Horton Absolutely agreed as in - great ad for that boat co. Typo, meant to type - does not. Was typing in bed on my way to sleep.

[Chad_Scott]

@LeonL is correct. However I used suggested because several world records have been approved by the IWSF council without the line bring present on the windshield . All that said I think it definitely would help to determine centerline deviation.

[Wish]

That leads to another question...to approve, disapprove a pass or flat out call it cheating, do both end videos get scrutinized and not just in one direction on a given pass?

 

I gotta say, other then a scant few pro events that I have seen, a mark on a windshield is never there. This seems more and more like a judgment call then exact science. Am I wrong and if so..why? I can see why it would be tough to get this into the Olympics regardless of the ...its propelled by an engine.. reasoning.

 

This is all very interesting, most likely very helpful to others and again appreciate the time and posts.

 

Anyone want to take a stab at questions 4 and 5? I know there's high ranking AWSA personal around here.

[Chad_Scott]

intentional weaving is pretty easy to spot with a naked eye. The guys that plot the end course spend hours doing so. And it is plotted in both directions. The record pass and the previous pass must be plotted to approve a record.

[Stevie Boy]

From what I understand you are allowed a deviation of 4 inches, I am not sure if that is 4 inches either side of the center line or 2 inches either side of the center line.

[LeonL]

@Stevie Boy See above post. 20cm deviation to each side. That's 7.8 inches. Four inches, in my opinion, would not be achievable in most cases.

[LeonL]

I was boat judging at a "C" tournament and two skiers, one deep 39 and the other into 41, both skied better than average. After I got out of the boat they approached me, pulled me aside, and asked if the driver was weaving the boat. They are skiers that I respect and have a high level of integrity. They just felt it was a little too easy. I answered honestly that I didn't know. When the line gets into 39, after the pregates and entrance gates I've got my eyes pretty busy being sure to determine 1/4, 1/2 and whole buoys, not boat path.

[Stevie Boy]

@LeonL I was thinking that, thankyou for making it clear, the Driver I was talking to was Ian Campbell who is a World Class driver, very focussed and proud of what he delivers when driving a boat.

[Stevie Boy]

@LeonL when skiers ask if it was the correct speed or if you were helping them because it felt easy, in my opinion thats when you have had a really good day, your driving was spot on and in tune with the skier, in and out of the course, if the skier feels unrushed and you are lined up outside of the course it can make a big difference in the course.

But it was also a good day for the skier, for what ever reason they were in the groove and skiing at their best.

A combination made in heaven ! Most satisfying for both parties.

[Texas6]

I'm certainly not casting judgment on the driver in question, because everyone breaks rhythm now and again, and that's still world class driving. But there is a visible difference between the two passes whereby in the Nate pass the driver is giving him the back of the boat and in perfect rythm with the skier, and the other seems more like a late reaction. I think the pass in question presents its own challenge at the buoy managing rope effectively. But to Chads point the pylon stays still

[Horton]

Files that showed up in my inbox in the last 24 hrs

 

[Chad_Scott]

Top is 39 off for Regina world record pass (2017 Malibu)

 

Bottom is 41 off for Nates world record pass. (CC)

[Wish]

Guessing the quality video is better on a live feed or original digital recording?

[bishop8950]

I assume those are both @Chad_Scott at the wheel? Awesome driving for sure. Makes me wish we did not ski the same division so you could drive for me!

[Texas6]

That's impressive driving

[Stevie Boy]

Haven,t thought much about it before, but does more weight in the boat help the driver ?

[thompjs]

Mark on windshield issue. You can use the frame on the walk through windshields to help with the record check. This is old news

[skierjp]

Leonl@, Okeeheelee uses a target that is suction cupped to the windshield for Splash Eye. Funny story. A few years ago at Okeeheelee they kept telling me to move 2 inches going south on the Main Lake. After a few passes we found that the target on the windshield was not in the center, it was 2 inches off. If any drivers ever gets a chance and can get in the drivers seat at Okeeheelee ( don't hold your breath ) it will be a awesome and possible humbling experience! The problem with some drivers that drive under Splash Eye is they feel like a steel cable. They are afraid to work the boat with the skier.

[Ralph Lee]

@Chad_Scott do you ever drive Trick or jump?

[Ralph Lee]

Does anyone know how many different drivers have been into 43 off? I'm also interested in who had pulled the most world records?

[elr]

IIRC Chad has driven trick for my son at Regionals and Becky has driven trick for my son at Nationals.

[Chad_Scott]

Yes I drive trick and jump I am a SR 3 event driver in all 3

[Horton]

Tube?

[Chad_Scott]

Love driving tube. St driver. Your up

[Ralph Lee]

@Chad_Scott Curious if you find any aspect of jump or trick as challenging as slalom?

[Chad_Scott]

I think pulling good jumpers is challenging. I try to take my same driving philosophy into driving jump. I just try to stay a touch ahead of the skier when they are making their turns. I have had some good jump drivers like Scott greenwood and Jody seal provide great feedback to me about driving jump

 

With any driving you just need feedback to work on your skills. Feedback from skiers, other drivers and don't be afraid to look at yourself on the end course. It certainly does not lie

[Horton]

I am locking a few threads for Christmas and this is one of them. Please stop thinking about this subject and go spend time with your family. I will reopen this thread on Dec 26.

[LLUSA]

@Ralph Lee into 43 off is a small club as Chad likes to call it. Someone correct me but as I know the following drivers have driven 43 off slalom: Les Todd, Gordon West, Will Bush, Jody Seal, Chris Eller, Tommy Harrington, Chad Scott, Becky Lathrop and myself

[MISkier]

I believe Nate Smith scored 1@43 at the Hidden Lake Record Slalom on 9/5/15. @Triplett or @CaleBurdick will know for sure, but I believe Mark Johnson was at the wheel.

[Horton]

Considering the number of times an N8 has run 41 in a class L or higher, I would think the list of drivers is "relatively" big.

[Ralph Lee]

@LLUSA Thanks! I have great respect for the top drivers.

[Wish]

Spoke with Les at length about how he drives. It was not what I expected. I believe he is unique in that regard and because of this, one of the best. I'd also bet that his end course vid looks slightly different then others but that is just a guess. More then one way to skin a cat..or so it sounds.

[NateSmith43]

Can't give you an exact number but somewhere I have kept track of all the drivers I have run 41 behind. The number is somewhere around 30 or 35 different drivers....

[Ralph Lee]

@Mark_Matis Agreed.

[gregy]

So what does the driver in question say about the run in question. I know when I start bad in a pass it's harder to hold the rest of the pass straight. Once I get off it often takes a couple of balls to get back tracking straight. I often end up bouncing around the rest of the pass.

[Wish]

I'd like to see this thread remain on topic for the sake of drivers and judges that may benefit from the answeres. Maybe instead of.. what did the driver say?...., how about ...what do others feel they need to do when getting pulled off center and trying to recover.? And any takers on questions 4 and 5. Anyone at all...going once..

[Gloersen]

@NateSmith43 - Holy Mackerel! When you run 43 at least you won't have as many dang drivers to remember! :)