This is why i love the internet

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@ Horton I was questioning what you were told and that your source had an accurate assessment. I simply don’t believe the coincidence that the engine seized at the EXACT moment the prop was over where the buoy use to be. There is a root cause in there somewhere and it’s not that the engine decided at that precise time to freeze.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield

No offence but I will bet you a good bottle of whiskey

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton none taken. But I would want to inspect the anchor/rope/boat myself. Way too much visual evidence to believe it’s a coincidence.

[bigskieridaho]

Bad thing is that the dad was skiing and teaching his son to drive the course for the first time.

[BraceMaker]

I find it surprising that an engine seizing could do this @horton was that the verdict?

 

My instinct is that with the pressure plate systems in a trans a seize would not be fully instantaneous and that the initial slowing of the engine would disengage the pressure on the plates and let the prop slip.

Ive thrown a rod through the block in a manual trans car and they keep going down the road blowing oil out and making a clatter but they dont just lock up the wheels.

 

Id be more inclined to think the trans ate itself and exploded as that wouldn't let the prop spin.

[rico]

I would bet a good bottle of whiskey that the reason for the engine or tran to fail is that the driver put the boat in reverse.

 

 

[Wish]

@bigskieridaho if that is the case I feel bad for both of them.

[Drago]

The driver doesn’t need end course video, that’s certain.

I’ve seen a boat thrown in reverse while it was moving forward at approx 32 mph, the nose didnt drop more than 6 inches, the prop just cavitatates.

I just gotta believe something was attached to the front eyelet to pull it down like that.

[Horton]

@rico call Doug Moss for the answer and bring me the bottle at the Cash Prize.

[rico]

I did learn over the years that @Horton never bets scotch if he's not 100% sure he will win. Having said that no one will ever know what the driver did...

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@rico you have to watch him closely. Horton bet "whisky", he did not bet scotch. Huge difference between your run of the mill California whisky you get at the 7-11 and a good single malt from Scotland.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield since you are a Texan I thought I should be vague. I mean Scotch but if you only understand very good corn squeezins - same difference.

[Horton]

@rico I do know that driver was a kid so you might could have a point. Again call Moss and then get me my booze.

 

Yes everyone should know I never bet booze (scotch) unless I am 90+ percent sure and I generally never post things unless I am equally sure. Now there is a difference between a bottle of scotch sure and a case of scotch sure. In this case I am a bottle of scotch sure.

[sunvalleylaw]

@bigskieridaho , darn it. I had posted I hoped it was not a spouse and that the spouse was then scarred from driving forever. This is worse. I sure feel bad for them. I hope they get the kid right back on the horse.

[hemlock]

How does the prop seize? It's still spitting out wash after the nose dived?

[BraceMaker]

Boat path god hath smote the boat. Thou shall not hitteth the gateth.

[76SS]

Years ago the prop shaft broke on a boat I was driving. I thought we had hit a stump or something, but there wasn't any prop/strut/rudder damage. We came to a complete stop in about two boat lenghts.

[BlueSki]

The amount of force that would hit a prop at 34 or 36 if it immediately stopped spinning must be tremendous. I bet @Than_Bogan could calculate the force.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

*****sigh*****

 

@ Horton just because someone you trust told you something plausible doesn’t mean it is the real cause. If the engine seized and threw a rod, “something” caused it to seize. Typically the cause is running out of oil, extreme overheating from no cooling water, a fist full of sand thrown in the air intake, or possibly something external that causes the shaft to suddenly stop turning.

 

If the this happened at some random point, I could believe the seizure was due to some mechanical neglect or maybe even if the driver suddenly slammed the throttle in full reverse.

 

However given the obvious timing that the catastrophic event happened precisely when the prop would have been over that buoy, the odds of a seizure happening at that exact time, by coincidence, is astronomical.

 

You can send me that bottle of scotch at your convenience. I’ll settle for your pick of single malt as long as it’s aged at least 18 years.

[ForrestGump]

When I was a teenager, we raced supercharged v-drive drag boats. V-drive locked up once and the boat became a submarine. All the way to the bottom of the lake. Of course, there was no freeboard and very little flotation in those things. But it was as abrupt as that video. I'll never forget my dad having me swim down and hook a tow line to it. Only problem was, the water was NOT clear and I hooked the tow line to the steering wheel. Oopsie.

[dshock]

@Bruce_Butterfield - I think we could recreate the situation by installing a driveshaft brake. Get up to speed, put boat in neutral and fully engage the brake in quick succession. The violent reaction is surprising to me however a buoy or poly line influencing the siezure of the engine would also be a surprise.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield

My source of information is Doug Moss. Doug is the guy who works on all the promo / private lake boats in the South West. Imagine @Jody_Seal in California but not insane. Doug in the process of relocating to Idaho where this crash happened.

 

When Doug Moss tells me something is true I pretty much consider it to be fact.

[E_T]

Because aliens

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton I’ll buy that the engine seized, but what caused it to seize? That’s the next layer that you are not getting from Doug.

[Jetsetr]

Gonna throw something out here (get it...throw! Will be here all week...try the veal)

 

I’ve worked on a LOT of injected/supercharged alcohol and nitromethane burning drag race engines. Just because a rod (or several) decides to depart the engine block usually does not/will not cause the engine to seize violently. It’s VERY common for a top fuel motor to drop a cylinder(s) and due to the huge amount of unburned liquid fuel being put into the cylinders to hydraulic the engine and toss the rods out. I’ve seen engines still running at the finish line with 4 rods out of the block. The other cylinders are still trying to make power at least for a little while, it will lock up (sometimes) at some point but not instantly (or the big end of the rod just bashes out enough clearance in the block webbing to continue rotating after the rod breaks) stock cast or forged steel rods usually won’t break so the engine speed drops faster but USUALLY won’t instantly seize.

 

Mr. Moss has not actually seen the damage first hand (other than photos Im guessing) and he’s on his way to look at it now and is relying on second hand information per @Horton. I’m kinda thinking he might find a broken crank but that was caused by an external force(reverse, transmission catastrophic failure or hitting/snagging something), and the uncontained crank caused the rod to come out.

 

Even with a broken crank and rods hanging out it shouldn’t cause a violent seizure... there was no smoke or fire and with a wet sump oil system there’s the possibility of 5/6 quarts (or more) of oil being tossed thru a hole in the block and plenty of really hot stuff to at least cause it to smoke, not to mention steam from the water jacket around the block being compromised. Not sure if that boat has a cast iron block or aluminum but if its cast they have a tendency to shatter and fail along casting lines or other weak areas of the block. Forged aluminum blocks usually just have nice holes where the rods come thru.

 

In all honesty (and as much as I like 18+ year old Scotch) it’s WAAAAY to early to pin a cause on exactly what happened at this point...however time will tell and they should have a better idea AFTER the engine is pulled and torn down, if they even bother.

 

I’m really interested to see what they discover. Glad no one was hurt...that’s the important thing.

 

***Just watched the video again several times...if that engine cover has an external air intake (like in the front of the cover) when the boat subs the engine probably swallowed a ton of water...THAT will absolutely hydraulic the motor and toss the rod(s) out...my ex wife did the same thing driving her Mustang thru a flooded road and it tossed the rods as well...

 

 

 

[MNshortliner]

As stated before, that boat moves way to quick to the right out of the screen after the submarine. That prop had to be still turning and think of all the extra water in that boat. Adds proabably 2000 extra pounds of water if not more. I don’t think there is any way that motor was seized up at that point.

[aupatking]

Sure looks like that thing is still spitting prop wash after it came back up. Would appear to me that the engine seizure was secondary.

[MISkier]

We should probably start another thread on this titled “What caused this?” Maybe a poll.

 

I do have one question. I am of the opinion that the boat bounced off the bottom of the lake. Did anybody confirm that happened?

[DaveD]

@MISkier that new tread should be put under a new category @horton needs to create called "Stupid things to argue about at the end of the season".

[Not_The_Pug]

@MISkier Broadside is 20+ feet deep. So I don't think it hit the bottom.

[Sethro]

Any possibility the rudder could somehow quickly turn 90 degrees and get locked in that position?

[Wish]

@Sethro does seem like steering was an early issue.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield

 

I hope this doesn't cost me any Scotch but the updated story is that the 13 yr old driver slammed the boat in reverse which caused the nose to dive and blew up the engine. There's talk that the boat is being totaled.

 

Again from reputable sources not just pulling shit out of my ass.

[MISkier]

I’ve heard others say that a sudden steering cable break will stop the boat like that.

[riplash]

My guess is that the tracking fin got hung up in the gate bouy line. The fin is far enough forward and far below the Center of gravity and Center of bouyancy that a tug on the fin could cause the boat to nose over like that and submarine. To me it looks like the prop is still providing propwash after it resurfaces and heads to boats left.

 

The ballpark breaking strength for 1/4" hollow braid polypropelene is 850#. I am curious if there is any evidence of a line strike on the tracking fin. But these are just my educated guesses.

 

-Ryan

[dshock]

I don't think that is prop wash. The end course camera removes depth perception (or at least distorts it). I think that is the roller created when the boat submarined. Notice that it extends basically all the way across the screen at the end of the video (both behind and in front of the boat). The buoyancy of the boat pushes it back to the surface and it heads to the left. Nothing conclusive there. I understand all the comments about engine seizure and was it cause or effect. My money is on transmission seizure if there was no damage to the running gear under the boat (which was @horton's original point).

[h2onhk]

Didn't see a new thread so I'll add my 2 cents here. I can see how it could happen......sort of. I run a ACME 422 on my 196. Its a big prop with a lot of surface area , but it is the factory prop for that year. At 34.2 through the course if you back out of the throttle quick after a fall the front of the boat will drop slightly and the back end raises us and gets a little "squirrly". Going to reverse from 34.2 is a very good possibility. Also looks like the gate buoy survived if you look closely.

 

Also realize that boat is a Response and not a 196. But big props do funny things when changing speeds drastically.

[Tom351]

I guess he slammed it in reverse when he realized that he was driving over the buoys- probably thought he was pulling it to idle.

[ShererSkier]

Could you imagine skiing behind something like that happening? It didn’t look like he was doing much but it would be crazy to be going through the motions, keep outside hand tension - ski around to the handle - look across to the next... where the hell did the boat go!?!?

[Not_The_Pug]

I think @horton should bring a bottle of Scotch to the ProAm this weekend and pass out drinks during dinner just to be safe.

[NikolG]

Any truth that it was a 13-year old driver?! Poor kid

[Horton]

@nikandsteve that's what Moss told me

[Timr71]

My son is 15 and I'm ready to start teaching him how to drive. I feel really bad for this kid and his Dad. This went from something cool like, "Hey look, my kid is driving and I'm skiing" to something not so good. Again, thankfully, no one is injured, but some equipment is torn up pretty severely. I hope, like any good dad, that he was able to console his kid and say, "It's just a boat." (even though, we all know that that IS hard to say.)

[BlueSki]

Headline in a few years: “Local college student perfects application of auto driving technology to watersports. Boat drives itself through slalom course.”

 

Quote: “I started thinking about it soon after the shock of blowing up my dad’s boat wore off. I thought I would be grounded for years but he forgave me immediately. He still won’t let me borrow his car though.”

[BlueSki]

My kid started driving for me recently. I feel bad for both the kid and the dad.

[RAWSki]

I am buying what @Horton reports here. The boat was all over the course and driver probably getting really frustrated. I have accidentally pulled a throttle back too quickly and slipped past neutral into reverse and dipped the nose suddenly... and sending two huge walls of water up from each side of the bow. Scary for sure

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton awesome! The engine seizing was the result, not the cause, so that does cost you a bottle of scotch!

 

That scenario is actually plausible - the poor kid realizes he’s about to run over a buoy, goes OH SHIT!!!, and slams in full reverse. Lots of bad things would happen.

 

The more important note is the dad should be shot for putting his kid, or anyone else, in the position of driving a skier in the course without ALOT of time behind the wheel without a skier, and then with a skier outside the course.

[Horton]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bno6qV2Bnlq/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=ftl7s8vkxnfi

[aupatking]

What was that? A duck to the ....?

[Horton]

yep