The Interpretation/Implementation of staying connected after the second wake

[mlange]

@Horton 's "What vs Why vs Interpretation/Implementation" post really hit home for me. I'm pretty bad at sensing what I'm doing - good or bad - so having different interpretations to try in order to accomplish the "what" really helps me.

 

So here's my current and biggest struggle. I free ski more than anything else and have created an awful habit of being narrow. I'm focusing right now on staying stacked past the second wake, but I'm still struggling to keep the handle in and stay connected as I cast out wider.

 

What things are you guys doing to "trick" yourself into doing this?

 

Mike

 

[Ilivetoski]

I make sure that my arm that is pointed in the direction I'm going (right arm going to 1-3-5 and left arm going to 2-4-6) is attached to my jacket until I'm close to the buoy line. Just started doing this and it felt great and was putting me wider at the buoy

[gregy]

I find staying connected has more to do with what I did before I got to the wakes. If I make a gradual turn in and build angle into the wakes then I feel the handle all the way out to the buoy line and it seems to carry through the course. If I start my turn in to gates too late and turn in and load early then I get pulled up through the wakes. No amount of handle control seems to correct poor gates for me.

[AdamCord]

Put the rope on 32off if you're free skiing. This is short enough that you MUST stay somewhat connected in order to go out and make a smooth turn without slack. This way you get instantaneous feedback about how well you're doing and can try different things and see how they work out.

[mlange]

I like @Ilivetoski 's suggestion. That's the kind of "trick" I need to get my body to do what I want and know it should be doing.

 

I am at 32-off @AdamCord so, yeah, I get punished when I'm not doing some of the right things. The problem I *think* I have is that I'm simply beginning my turn too early and have been doing it for so long that it's become muscle memory. I need something to break out of that bad pattern and cast out further.

 

It's been frustrating because this should be such an easy thing to fix.

[UWSkier]

are you crossing the wakes with your shoulders open to the boat? That's what usually pulls me narrow. Trying to work on the same thing this summer.

[Horton]

@mlange The first question has to be " Are you actually connected at the first wake?" If your hips are back and your stack is broken before the centerline then connection is as achievable as a date with Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Model.

 

 

 

[skidawg]

The achievement of dating a swimsuit model is directly proportional to zeros at the end of a bank account, that being said. Prolly easier than slalom

[ForrestGump]

Does a Victoria's Secret model count?

 

[thager]

Only if sober and not by the side of the road.

[DaveD]

@BoneHead Yes, but only to 10. Maybe higher if she can borrow someone else fingers and toes.

[ForrestGump]

@daved I'm not gonna lie, this one might have needed help getting to 10.

[skidawg]

10 on the entertainment scale!

[Razorskier1]

This thread has gone completely off the rails - but it is Friday I guess.

[Andre]

(Pissing in my pants reading this threadjack!)

[Horton]

back on topic.

 

I've always found the concept of keeping load on my outside shoulder off the second wake simple to think about on shore but completely perplexing while skiing. The one trick that really helps me is squeezing my outside hand. So for me going to 2/4/6 I squeeze the handle with my left hand through & past edge change to maintain additional connection out to the ball line.

[gmut]

try to keep your elbows pinned to your vest through the wakes and into the edge change.

[Razorskier1]

Go back to the handle path. You can either (a) pull on the handle, (b) let the line go loose, or © you can let the boat pull you. If you make sure you keep the boat pulling you, then you have handle pressure, you will be wide and early, and your line will be tight.

[Horton]

@Razorskier1 I feel like you're teasing a nugget of wisdom.

 

Are you saying A) bad B ) bad C) good ?

[Razorskier1]

@horton - winner winner chicken dinner!

[mlange]

I think @Horton's and @Ilivetoski's ideas worked the best for me this weekend. Forcing myself to keep my outside elbow in tight helped me a bit, but it's definitely note a natural feeling for me yet. I'm going to keep working on this and see if it's my silver bullet.

 

Thx guys

[ESPNSkier]

Thanks @Horton! I know that your comment about squeezing the handle with your outside hand was meant for skiers waaaaay better than me but I have been really struggling to get back on track this spring so I tried it today. I ran a couple of clean openers and then ran 22 off back-to-back for the first time since last year! I was really struggling with getting pulled up off edge at the wakes and somehow this plus a more progressive approach into the gates helped me to stay in my lean a bit better. Or perhaps it was good to just focus on one thing and not 5 or 6 every pass. Either way I appreciate the tip even if it wasn't meant for skiers at my level....thanks!

[Horton]

@ESPNSkier hey man it is as important at 22 or 28 as it is at 38

[ESPNSkier]

Thanks again, hopefully I'll give it a try at 28- tomorrow!

[DmaxJC_ski]

Not to hijack this thread, but I skied for the first time this year a couple weeks ago, and I'm finding myself using good stack only when I need too if that makes any sense. This was the first time I skied since last august which was a coach session with Breanne Dodd, I remembered and applied everything she said and in all honesty I exceeded my own expectations, I found that I was super early, but not excessively wide throughout the whole set. Was nice and wide on the gates skiing 15 off @32mph. So how do I force myself to maintain that stack all the time more so then when I need to? Also made a binding change and felt better then I have in 5 years on my previous setup.

[MrJones]

Horton

Please include accompanying SI Swimsuit pic with any further thoughts you may have regarding this issue. (I learn more from pictures than words)

Thank you

[A_B]

Talk about hips and stack probabilities all you want, but if you drink more beer, the probability of getting a girl who looks like a SI swimsuit model goes up tremendously....

[matthewbrown]

The more tangent my shoulders are to the load from the boat, the more connected to the handle and balanced my body will be through the edgechange. The more I try to twist my shoulders away from the load through the edgechange, the more disconnected and narrower my balance point becomes. I believe this is what @Razorskier1 is eluding to. It's only physics. Doesn't mean you can't get away with twisting away, it's just not ideal. What it all boils down to, I believe, is having open shoulders through the edgechange while maintaining your lean away and direction out. The problem comes when skiers try to stay open during the edgechange and simultaneously give up their lean, hands are then thrown up in the air exclaiming that this open shit doesn't work, so tail between the legs we go back to the band aid move of pulling hard and long through both wakes with a late exaggerated edge change causing an off balance inconsistent turn. This concept requires a lot of coaching, but once it's established, it's an entirely new ballgame.

[Razorskier1]

After edge change I am just trying to be a weight at the end of the line, using my direction and speed to keep the line tight. I think sometimes people talk about keeping handle pressure and they think they need to PULL after the center line. No. After center line you should feel the pull of the boat, and keep your handle close, but you should not be actively pulling.

[ski6jones]

@matthewbrown can you clarify "more tangent my shoulders are to the load"? Do you mean a line through your shoulders is tangent (perpendicular) to the load?

[matthewbrown]

@ski6jones Yes, the more square my shoulders are to the load the more balance I have. If I decrease my shoulder width by twisting slightly, I have taken away from my ability to be completely balanced. Again, we are not talking about the amount of lean I have away from the boat or the amount of pressure I have in my lead arm, only that my shoulders should ideally remain tangent to the load. How much of a difference does it really make? I think like anything else, the better you can become at the fundamentals, the better you will ski.

[slow]

I know what perpendicular to the load means. Does tangent to the load mean the same thing.

[Deep11]

Loading through and off second wake = loss of handle control (and direction)

[acmx]

@matthewbrown that's exactly what I said after trying to ski more "open" too funny. I felt like I was getting thrown face first/tripping through the edge change, so obviously doing it wrong. Would like to hear you expand on the tangent to the load transition.

[ToddL]

@matthewbrown - I'm also trying to understand what intend by saying "Shoulders Tangent". In a theoretically perfect "tangent" position would your sternum be pointed down the rope (load) or is a line from left to right shoulder pointed down the rope?

[RazorRoss3]

I don't know if it is exactly what is being discussed above but I try to keep my shoulders open down course. I'll admit that I'm a little more top heavy than most skiers but I find that if I let my shoulders twist away from the boat then I am going to get load locked in my pull and unloaded up course after the wakes. If I can keep my shoulders more open to the boat I can actually put more angle on the ski and be across the wakes sooner because I'm cutting with the boat instead of getting stuck in a game of tug-of-war with it that I am doomed to lose since my 1/10th of a horsepower is never going to win against it's 350+.

[ShererSkier]

I'm also interested in the "shoulders tangent" comment, if it could be expanded upon. Maintaining handle connection after the wake crossing has been my biggest problem, but I tried @Horton's trick of squeezing the handle with the outside hand last week. It really seemed to keep the handle in longer and I was surprised at how much wider I was coming into my turn.

[matthewbrown]

When there is load on the line(right behind the boat/2nd wake), shoulders square to that load is the most efficient way to resist as well as keep proper balance. If under load my shoulders are twisted slightly, I still believe one can hold all the load you need, but ones shoulder width has now narrowed in relation to the direction of the load, which means that the load is not evenly distributed throughout ones body. Therefore I am more likely to lose balance and have the ski fall behind me in the edge change, or worse yet shoot out from underneath me forcing my path straighter to the buoy. If you watch Nate out of his good side cut, he is completely open and never twists away until after he lets go of the handle, however, he is slightly twisted with his shoulders on his offside cuts. Not a big deal for him because his balance is so great, he is perfectly stacked, and his load is always in the right spot. Not to mention it is biomechanically much more difficult to do this on the offside cut. It's all about finding that balance in the edgechange, and it is much easier if there is less load, if you are stacked, and if you are as open as can be without giving up your direction.

*I think I need to do a better job of clarifying something else. Yes, shoulders square to the load when you are right behind the boat, but still keeping that downcourse position through the transition and edge change, or in other words shoulders would be facing downcourse through the edge change. I think this is where everyone fails with the whole open bit, it's not open to the pylon through the edge change, and it's not twisting away to the shore, it's shoulders facing downcourse so that you can maintain your direction*

[Horton]

@matthewbrown I am from the school of "Only As Open As Natural" at centerline. I try to neither open or close my shoulders but do wish that my hips pointed more in the direction of the my ski.

 

In the below image I am not really square the load but the I have roughly equal load in each arm. Would you propose that I should be more open than this?

 

 

 

 

[Ralph Lee]

Yes, pictures help "bigly" when trying to understand these discussions

[matthewbrown]

@Horton you are nearly perfectly open, the right shoulder lower than the left gives the illusion that you are twisting away more than you really are. nothing wrong with this picture, why are you not running 39?

[matthewbrown]

 

this is the way it should look ideally

[ski6jones]

What about the offside? That's where I get lost in this conversation because as was mentioned you can't get in exactly that position on the offside.

[Razorskier1]

You have to do what you can on the offside. I think of it as letting the boat bring my back shoulder forward a little, rather than, as @matthewbrown said, twisting away. You don't need to be completely open in order to have a fairly even load between both arms/shoulders. Having all the load in one shoulder is, for me, sub-optimal.

[Horton]

@matthewbrown what worries me about this conversation is I think a lot of skiers think then need to try to be more open than necessary. I see skiers trying to get radical open and as you know this usually ends badly.

 

In my mind - in that image I am a natural amount open. I do not ever try to be more or less open.

 

Please do not use Nate as an example. He is from another planet.

[matthewbrown]

 

@Horton Larson? Look how on top of the ski he is in this pic, really hard to get this on top of the ski when your shoulders are rotated. Same thing Nate is doing, and many other skiers. Your shoulders are slightly more rotated and as a result, you are considerably further on the back of of the ski which will hinder you from keeping your speed into the next buoy. Unless of course this is a picture of a 28 off and you are already beginning your edge change.

 

[Zman]

Must be X7 magic? Good pics.

[ski6jones]

Offside looks alot different, even for Nate.

 

[Horton]

@matthewbrown l love Larson but his skiing makes less sense to me than Smith.

[ISP6ball]

Is Nate even awake in that pass? It's ridiculous how comfortable he looks....