Conditions at Worlds

[Horton]

I spoke to the parent of one of the skiers at Worlds this morning. The assessment is that the site in Paris is clearly worse than The Masters or Moomba and worse than any World Cup Stop in recent memory. Rollers, sporadic wind and cold.

There are 2 ways to see this.

 

[RazorRoss3]

Conditions can certainly impact the end result and it is unfortunate if you have highly variable conditions but at the end of the day you need to expect that. When you register for a tournament you do so understanding that this is an outdoor sport and mother nature will do what she will. If you can't come to play regardless of conditions then you yield advantage to the rest of the field. You always prefer glass but you need to be prepared to throw down in a 20mph wind while it's snowing and the sun is in your eyes.

[UWSkier]

It's an outdoor sport. Conditions vary. Adversity is interesting. I don't particularly like when the Packers have to play on that awful turf at Soldier Field, but it is what it is and makes whipping the Bears even more enjoyable.

[jcamp]

I have less sympathy for wind and cold weather ... Bad site conditions are tough, but it's not as if there is a horde of potential LOCs tripping all over each other to host big events like this. Beggars can't be choosy.

[jcamp]

Are we really sure the conditions are all that bad? After all, the IWSF's website calls the venue a "Perfect Paris setting."

[Horton]

Based on the scores so far I would say the conditions are VERY bad. Mens Slalom scores

[Than_Bogan]

None of the above!

 

I really dislike the whole "it's the same for everyone" thing. Imagine an absurd scenario for a minute: You show up at the tournament and find no lake at all and just a stretch of track and some big blue mats. "Today, we're going to pole vault. Don't worry, it's the same for everyone."

 

The point is, there is some expectation of what constitutes a waterski tournament, and if conditions are outside of that, it's disappointing for all.

 

But the other choice is also clearly wrong. There's no insult to anyone. A site stepped up and -- I have to assume -- did it's best to produce a good waterski tournament. If it failed because of mother nature, then oh well. If it failed because of something correctable, then correct it for next time!

 

Meanwhile, take your turn and see what you can do. Then tell stories about it for years afterward.

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan If I understand correctly even if the weather was perfect, the lake is massively rolly and not a proper ski site. Some light wind could actually make the water conditions better.

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton That would certainly be different, and -- if true -- render it an inappropriate venue for the event.

[klindy]

Robbins Lake and the Yarra river have has tournaments there for years. The conditions are well known and the expectations are known.

 

As bad as the scores are, having different "series" ski a couple days apart make the whole argument that the conditions are the same for everyone pretty much worthless. They may be for the skiers in the series but all the series are competing for a limited number of finals slots.

 

Hopefully there are tens of thousands of people on the shore watching. There have been lots of sites with questionable conditions that have hosted "high exposure" events.

 

There should be some type of vetting process before a bid is accepted. Even if it's the only bid.

[keithh2oskier]

I think it would be in the best interest of professional waterskiing to have an event attended to by thousands with less than ideal conditions than 50 people watching every other person get into 41.

 

I didnt attend Boardstock but watching the video this looks like it was a pretty good time. I am sure the scores were no deeper than -38 but its entertaining for those watching thats for sure...

 

[ALPJr]

Like @klindy says, does the site provide access to lots of spectators, like Moomba? If so then is backwash an issue that can be addressed? Can't change the weather.

[BraceMaker]

@klindy I'm with you - high exposure venues with well run events so long as the athletes are game for it is how you get exposure. 4 ball tournaments under the lights on small lakes aren't the norm but might draw a crowd. But don't really set meaningful scores.

 

Maybe more odd events that the competitors had to think about their equipment and prepare themselves for adverse conditions could be interesting. Consider downhill skiers don't run the same skis in all conditions, why do waterskiers?

[klindy]

The problem is for a World Championship you don't want the conditions to be the great equalizer. You want the best to shine.

 

What happens in jump? I've seen other tournaments where the ramps was at 5'-6" (or so( for Open Men and a lot of 3/4 cuts. I hope conditons here are better than that.

[DanE]

I wanted to vote for both options

[Andre]

If you look at skiers list ,It's not like the best skiers have ski yet either...

[Bill22]

I need to change my answer.

 

This is Worlds. Skiers train for two years for one round. It shouldn't be on a lake that is really bad.

[Horton]

I have had contact with a few top skiers since I posted this thread. Here are some excerpts

 

The nature of random waves moving side to side at differing speeds and heights means that the course will never, ever be the same for two skiers........ We understand this when we go compete for money at Moomba. However, this is WORLDS!

It’s a complete and utter disgrace that two years of our work should come down to chance and not skill.

the 'best-skier-in-rollers' will win, not the 'best skier'

 

[klindy]

@Horton I can't argue with those comments.

 

Has there been a top level tournament there before? E&A Champs or higher?

[Horton]

@klindy the word is that the French federation and the IWWF say the site is fine :-)

 

[thager]

Might be a strategy for the home team to equalize the field. Not much different than making a very good quick football team or passing team play in the mud and rain etc.

[Horton]

@scotchipman I have been waiting since May 2007 for you to say something that I 100% agree with :-)

[NEO]

I think the prestigious tourneys should be held at the best sites available. Why is the super bowl played in a pro style stadium? Why is the masters golf tourney played at one of the best golf courses in the world? Etc, Etc.

[dave2ball]

Isn't the world's a bid process? If that is the case was Paris the only country to put a decent bid in the IWWF eyes? Or did they pick who they [iWWF] think Paris was the best choice?

[disland]

@neo answer money. football has money and golf has money, why is world's where it is at $$$ $$$ and $$$, oh and mix in a little IWWF politics around their BS bidding process and there you go.

 

Why a US athlete who is not on the "team" and gets no money from USAWS even bothers to ski in the event is questionable.

[Chad_Scott]

These athletes train for two years leading up to this event. They spend a small fortune in travel, hotels and training to go to a location not suitable for a competitive event. There will be no big crowds and no reason for this event to be held at this location. The world championship should be held on a world class site with world class conditions. This is a travesty to these athletes.

[ozski]

Crazy idea but imagine if skiers had a realistic chance to break a world record at worlds...

[Edbrazil]

I talked with one Men slalomer who skied already. In Series 3. He thinks that no one will

run a full 39, even the winner in Men. Also talked to one of the appointed judges, who says

that the backwash-absorbing devices do work somewhat. And brrr, it looks like the

temperature will not climb above 70F.

[MillerTime38]

Everyone skis in the same conditions, quit crying and ski

[lpskier]

If I'm not mistaken, the bid process and cash up front to the IWWF are pretty arduous. It seems as though few sites and clubs have interest in hosting the event, and there is little opportunity to turn a profit, much less break even.

[ALPJr]

Are there any photos or video of the event?

[Nando]

A Worlds site should be capable of guaranteeing good conditions unless the weather is terrible. The poor conditions this year and the last minute change in 2015 are embarrassments to our sport.

[APB]

i heard the 2018 north korean venue will be the bomb....

 

[APB]

all kidding aside... the worlds venue needs to be top notch, capable of world record conditions.

[Killer]

I can feel the pain of the skiers, we all can. Who hasn't gone out to the site to find less than ideal conditions? Everyone wants to ski up to their best every set and Slalom is a sport of failure.

 

So... The only thing the athletes and their parents should say anything about is how they are treated on and off the water and and how it's run. They have all skied in Rolly conditions. And sorry but it doesn't appear to be that bad, a no name kid ran 3@39. Back in the day they skied on far more challenging lakes than this one. Suck it up, you're representing your country on the world stage. The athletes with the best mental and physical abilities will win-Whiners won't.

 

The only issue I have with this site is the prediction of no attendees, in which case sure put it somewhere that can promise better scores. That is shameful and would be the direct responsibility of the LOC as the location looks incredible. Imagine having the world's just outside NYC???.

The athletes sure seem to be enjoying the sites of Paris!

 

Conditions can change anywhere-unless you're at one of the few elite man made sites where it's always Sunny and never windy, and even then... I've been by okee a few times when it's been blown out, or nearly so. I've watched pros run 39 in winds I couldn't run my opener, they are amazing athletes by and large.

 

Skiing in challenging conditions and skiing well is a skill in this sport. I disagree it is now a game of chance or luck or "special teams". There have always been skiers who are known to be better in challenging conditions and others who are always at the top of the ranking list who seem to fail in those conditions.

 

Some skis are better in chop too.. some skiers can tune better or have a team that can. That's sport- Let's talk about this! Canada has Matt Rini and Drew Ross there, I'm sorry to everyone else but Canada clearly has an advantage at tuning and coaching! Is that unfair?

 

Take a look at our sister sport: alpine ski racing:

Every race course is different.

Course is completely rutted up by the time the best ski

Depending on course/conditions could be markedly worse than skiers who were on the mountain earlier in the day

Conditions on a mountain can change in a minute

Fog, rain, snow, ice, etc.

 

Where was Will Asher at the caliproam? Made an early mistake and he goes home. I kept hearing about something unusual at the 3ball?? Claimed a few guys early... Nate couldn't run 41, must be a crappy site!

 

Nate will run 39, many others will too and Some will go down early. Take up wakeboarding if you want a second try...

 

I predict you will need at least a piece of 4@41 to win mens slalom.

[Luzz]

I saw the question asked earlier… we did ski E&As two years ago and it was "okay". Drop times for slalom were 35s on one end and I believe 2 or 2.5 minutes on the other. Essentially, even numbered passes were skied quickly to avoid rollers. You can see the results of those days here. Scores were of high level and the organizer(s) promised work to be done on shore to avoid this situation for 2017 worlds. I am not there, and to the surprise of most of you, I haven't spoken to anyone about it. It's Worlds. Unfortunately, we as skiers, who have been around for a while, expect it to be subpar, for one reason or another.

[Horton]

@killer so you are an impartial Canadian? All your skiers train in Florida. Team Florida always wins.

[disland]

Just to make it even more interesting some weather is coming into Paris and it looks like there is going to be a big blow on Friday

[Jody_Seal]

Having been to many world championships in the last 30 years. I have seen really only one venue that was a no holds barred event. It was tidal, open and conditions were far from WPB. for the most part I would say that the worlds Venues that I have been too were acceptable or have been on par with what one would expect for a private man made site.

However in today's day and age and today's technology one would not expect the best conditions of a world class / championship event would be so detrimental to a skiers performance. I will go out on a limb and say a number of the top men skiers will run 39 as will the top girls run 38/ Trick scores into the 11,000 plus and jumps over 200' A percentage of the top slalom skiers are also Euro and have skied this site before.

Just hope this unusual low condition site is not a prelude to future world events.

 

 

[gsm_peter]

Questions?

 

I have understood that this site is in the middle of Paris?!?

Did the completion attract a lot of spectators?

If so that isn't that a major plus?

 

My 2 cents

A site with to much rollers is bad and should have been avoided or modified to reduce rollers.

The weather is what it is.

Is a temperature of 70F/18C to low to compete in?

If that was the case we could hardly not compete at all in Sweden (They actually run into 41off/10.25m in competions Sweden)

 

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@gsm_peter 70F for us is a good summer day temp. I was prepping the boat last saturday AM and it was 46 at 730 AM got to 65 midday.

 

My boat crew (wife and mom) did not take their sets.

[ALPJr]

The map of the site on the IWWS website (something like that) looks good - man made for skiing and other sports. Anyone have pic's or vid's from the tourney?

[RazorRoss3]

I would agree, if 70 is too cold then I have spent the majority of my life skiing in something that is below too cold. I've skied with rolly water and visually it can definitely screw with your head as you come into a buoy but it's just one of many things we have to deal with in this sport. I would love it if we could ski on endless glass but that just isn't the nature of the sport.

[ToddF]

The Correct answer is simple:

The Conditions are ridiculous and insulting, But everyone is skiing on the same lake and same course, so make lemonade! And use this event as a future historical benchmark of testing and pre screening a location.

 

@Than_Bogan If a pole vault competition broke out during a ski tournament I would hope there would be a lot of prize money on the line and I was entered.

 

[Killer]

@horton. Of course I want to see the Canadians do well. Team Florida rules!

 

Clint stadlbaur mention something to me that he felt many of the best pros were not the southern US private lake skiers, but those who grew up and trained in variable (crappy) conditions. Guys like Will, Jason, nevue, Fwinter, his own son Benny ;). Nate as well, as I know he would train well into winter in a dry suit.

 

Neveu doesn't train in Florida AFAIK... :) And I skied with Jason a few weeks back here in the great white north. I think he is a better pro now that he has to train in Canada through tournament season and on a public lake no less. How many top skiers can say that?

 

They had the panam games in Toronto a couple years back, downtown on a canal next to lake Ontario, a challenging site depending on wind and always cold water (was as low as round 58 in the last month)

fortunately they did rip rap the shoreline retaining wall. Anyways both he and Nate ran 39 and needed a run off for first. Incredibly exciting! I'd rather see that any day than all the guys get down 41 and Nate beat every one by 3 buoys...

 

Hopefully the loc has promoted the event so the Parisians come out to watch these incredible athletes.

 

 

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddF Watch out for @adamhcaldwell.

[ozski]

Cream rises to the top. Regina - Whitney - Manon the usual suspects with decent scores.

[MattP]

Regina ran 1@41 only 2.5 buoys off the world record.

[LLUSA]

The worlds are what they are, and whoever wants to put the money up to host this event can step up, Malaysia in 2019, yep that's right. On another note, World Games are here in the USA in 2021, until IWWF stops taking huge amount of money necessary to host this event you are not going to see many sites step up.

[aupatking]

Due to the nature of worlds being an ever changing venue, I get that varying conditions will be a fact of life but, as this is the World Championships, shouldn't the site be chosen based on some expected performance level?

As the sport truly needs visibility, it does seem that Worlds should not be held in a subdivision, which is where we find almost every man-made, optimum condition lake in the US.

So, what's the trade off? Crowd vs Competition? The Yarra brings the largest crowds in water skiing, to my knowledge, but there is no chance of a world record being set in almost every event, definitely not Slalom. That doesn't seem to hurt the competition. Just the score.

I definitely do see both points though.