Hard Shell Bindings - which type??

[BraceMaker]

I have extensive history using the FM quattro's on split soles - and am only recently trying other set ups for a SINGLE issue - which is front ankle protection in a dual boot setup.

 

I feel like torsional issues are best solved by keeping two legs in place on the ski as you have both limbs connected together for additional stability and protection of the single leg. Quattro split sole binding is probably one of the "safest" from this perspective as the two plates are held on the ski by their interlocking to each other and the interface to the rear block. Both will be on or both will be off period.

 

But that leaves the concept that the front heel cannot necessarily lift if the back binding is locked down - which is proven by stabbing a turn ball. In dual boot systems in which the front heel is held down by the back foot on the ski fogman/fm/ho exo/goode etc. All have this feature.

 

MOB binding has an individual front binding retention - which assuming both bindings are set below some critical level of tension where neither ankle can exceed a certain peak force you in theory should be OK in twisting falls (FM won't twist off due to the velcro and the side blocks at the middle of the ski) You should also be slightly better off in terms of front ankle safety as the rear foot being loaded doesn't trap the heel of the front foot downwards.

 

I do see some risk that you could inadvertently eject from the front binding with the rear taking a full ski tip worth of tweaking (meet anyone who wore too tight of a rear binder and took an OTF) - however the rear release should still then be at a release threshold of safety and come undone.

 

 

I feel like there's still some work to be done here. I like that article because it describes the mechanics of various injuries, a similar treatment of waterskiing would be fascinating.

[amnesia]

No worries OldboyII. My condolences. Didn't mean to diss SUP's. I took one out for a spin in Jamaica once. Not my thing though. Biggest excitement was dodging the Jet skiers. If you were in Vancouver where I live, you'de have your dog with you and both of you would be doing yoga in your Lulu Lemons on the SUP.

[Killer]

@amnesia you are a few hours and a ferry ride away from one of the most significant binding manufacturers - fluid motion near Port Alberni. Travers skied them for most of his pro career until just recently actually.

Give them a call, Paul should be able to provide some quality insight.

[amnesia]

I was wondering where they were at. I'll definitely check them out.

[Horton]

I think the bottom line for everyone is - Can you get out without loosening something? Besides that you have to understand and accept how your boots release. You can get hurt in any system.

 

Some of you seem to be focused on twisting falls. I wrecked both my knees jumping in twisting motions. Both of these injuries might have been prevented with modern snow ski tech. In both injuries I landed safely and then one ski shot off to the side. I blew one ACL and one PCL.

 

As an old slalom skier (in double boots) I personally find twisting falls to be super rare and not a worry. As long as my binding releases when there is up pressure from my heel I feel safe. If I was in a front boot with a kicker I might have a different point of view.

[BraceMaker]

So the twisting IMO is from what happens when the water stops you, in my case it was my front leg extending fully as my body rotated along with the water when I hit in this case leg fully extended back leg rotating across my front leg, shoulder stopping in the water spiral fractured my femur, the ski didn't break loose of the water.

 

Maybe rare - but that's why I don't like one foot out.

[Horton]

@BraceMaker Yep one foot out is a whole different deal

[sunvalleylaw]

Frankly, with what Horton says in bold above, I am going to check my rubber bindings on the dock with how I normally pull on the bungy for release as well. I don't over tighten, but still.

[Glydon]

@Horton old tech now but can you please offer some advice on how to test my HO EXO's for release other than crash test dummying . Have never had them release but have also not really crashed either. TIA.

[david_quail]

@Horton thanks for all the info on this.

The reason I (and I think others) are focusing on twisting falls, is that I've been told that this is the main place where hardshells let you down and are unsafe. (Obviously you can get hurt plenty of ways, but this is the main downside of hardshells). I took this to mean that they're less likely to release than my normal lace ups. But thinking about the physics of these types of falls, it seems as though a skier is in trouble regardless of the binding (with the exception of a few bindings which have been mentioned). If this is true, converting to hardshells from my current set up doesn't come at the expense of any of my safety.

[amnesia]

David_Quail, that's the conclusion that i'm sort of coming to as well. I will probably move to a Syndicates hardshell in the near future. I'm going to Travers for a week next month and will definitely be "pushing my envelope" so I want to be as safe as possible.

 

On my snow skis I ALWAYS set my bindings quite a bit lower that the DIN charts would suggest. Works for me and I have never pre-released. Simply put I almost never fall so the odds are in my favor. And if I pre-release I'm not really all that concerned. I wish all that was true on water, but since I'm always trying to "push it" to get around the balls i'm doing my share of falling, and i'm way more concerned about "pre-release" than on snow.

 

Does anyone know if my Vector Featherlite rear boot would mate well with the Syndicate Hardshell? Or would I have to get a Wiley rear or some other boot? I also have the Vector RTP as well as the Vector HRT but always felt better with a rear boot to avoid those "one foot out" situations that Horton was talking about.

[Horton]

For those you guys that are so focused on twisting falls the one system that probably handles it best is MOB. I don't really talk much about that system because when I spent time with it I could not figure out how to do release testing. If that system is set right it might be the best possible system. I just couldn't figure out how to verify my settings. The other advantage or disadvantage of MOB is it you have to bring your own boots. A certain level of DYI appeals to some of you but does not appeal to me.

 

 

[Horton]

@amnesia matching different brands of front and back boots should not be an issue as long as the hole pattern on the ski lines up

[ScottScott]

@Horton While on the MOB you do have to make a boot choice....I believe Ive seen that you can send it in to him and have him mount it if you're not into the DIY.....?

[Horton]

@ScottScott Yes. That is true.

[gsm_peter]

Ny 2 cents FWIW.

Velcro has not been discussed.

(One larger plate with 2 non release boots. Attached with specified amount of defined Velcro. The plate separat from the ski in a severe fall).

2 foot in is at least a safe solution för rotation falls.

[amnesia]

I just wanted to add a final comment on this thread (which I started):

 

Finally got out to Sunset Lakes and Chris & Jon immediately set me up with an EDGE hardshell binding to demo. Well, to say I was impressed is a gross understatement. I couldn't believe how comfortable and easy to get into this binding is compared to my Vectors (still using Vector rear boot with the top lace very loose for now). The difference in feel is unbelievable. I can now crank down on the buckles as much as I like without affecting the the release. It feels like the ski is part of my leg - totally connected with no slop what so ever. My skiing immediately improved 100% and I never looked back. After skiing 12 sets over 4 days I happily plunked down the cash so I could keep the binding. I ended up needing a size 10 shell and a size 9 edge liner. I tried an intuition liner (size small 6-7 fit well) but found that the ankle cuff was way too loose. The edge liner seems to have more volume around the cuff and holds me in better. In fact Jon still had to move the upper buckle so it could go tighter to accommodate my skinny ankle (if I ever decide to change to an intuition liner). It did take a bit of playing with the adjustment in the beginning as it was pre-releasing occasionally with sloppy starts. Once set properly, the binding performed flawlessly. During the course of the week I did manage to have 2 "out the front" falls and the binding released without any pressure on my foot or ankle what so ever. The initial demo was the original "3D" base -which immediately cracked. Once changed to the upgraded "beefier" injection molded plastic base it was fine.

 

I would never go back to the Vector, or any other bungee type soft shell release system. I love the comfort, convenience, safety, and MOST IMPORTANT THE FEEL skiing on the hard shells. My only advice is to carefully try on ALL the shell/liner combinations to find the correct fit for your foot. And make sure you have the upgraded base. Don't assume that the intuition liner is better than the edge liner - as this was not the case for me. I'm told the 2018 model shell will have the top buckle drilled with an extra hole so it can be moved to make it tighter.

 

Cheers, Amnesia

[jshaff28]

I plan to make a move to hardshell bindings starting in the spring and am beginning to evaluate options. It seems like the best double boot options are either MOB, or OB4, with the advantage of OB4 being i can buy the boots with the release system.

 

However it seems there has not been much talk lately about OB4, are they still producing and shipping new bindings?

 

 

[mmosley899]

@jshaff28 I have made several improvements to my system since I designed the OB four version. For best performance you want the new MOB system. The comfort, fit and feel varies widely from boot to boot, making choosing the right boot extremely important. That is why I have not chosen to sell a particular boot with the MOB system. Many skiers will reject a particular release system based on a dislike for the boots attached to it. If you are in the US, it is pretty easy to select the boot that fits your skiing and send it to me to be mounted for no charge. If you are not in the US, I will be glad to get you the boot of your choice, mount it up and ship the whole system to you. Shoot me an email or call and we can work out exactly what you want.

[mmosley899]

@jshaff28 hope you get to try it out soon...

 

[Roger]

@mmosley899 - I'm a little confused by Horton's statements about not being able to test the release on the dock/platform. If you're standing in your ski on the platform and roll your weight forward to where you're heavily loading your Achilles tendon and it doesn't release, why would it release any easier in the water? Not saying it won't just want to understand the physics of the different scenarios here.

[amnesia]

Static vs Kinetic friction? ie: it will require more force to overcome the friction of the binding mechanism and result in a "release" if the movement is slow (dock) as opposed to fast (skiing)

[mmosley899]

@Roger great question and @amnesia answered it somewhat, when you are skiing, you are a mass in motion. In a fall your body weight continues in motion in the direction of the fall. When your ski engages with the water, the large surface area creates an extremely high opposite force. Your body movement acts as a lever working against the spring loaded mechanism, forcing the release. This sudden high force is hard to duplicate standing on the dock. Also the MOB release works in multiple directions, not just in the forward heel up release that you described. The system will release with a rotational force without ever loading the Achilles' tendon. This action works to further prevent injury to knees and ankles, as well as keeping forces well below the breaking point of bones.

 

Think of high school physics, a force in motion continues in motion until acted on by an equal and opposite force. You don't want that force in any direction acting on your legs, knees or ankles!

[KRoundy]

Is there another forum here where there has been a discussion about the different shells and how they fit? I've heard bits and pieces here and there about shells, liners, heating and I am willing to admit that I'm very intrigued but also a bit wary of all the options in front of me. Where do I start? What would be best for me? Things I think about include: my foot size/shape, my skiing ability or lack of the same, my preferred double-boot setup, etc?

[jshaff28]

Mike thanks again for getting these out to me. I can't wait to get on the water and try them it's been a long winter.