Why do people suck?

[Keith_Menard]

Trying to plan a couple lakes to visit this summer where I might have a decent chance of good course time and came across this article:

Link

 

Sinkable course...an hour a day...not when there is boat traffic. How much more courteous can you be?

[PatM]

Yes this does suck. The course owner's brother lives on my lake and told me the whole horror story. It is worse than what is printed in the article. Sounds like he is making good for some bad vibes/behavior by others using the course. Lesson to all - be courteous to your neighbors. I know I have had run ins with others regarding the course and learn to just walk away from the conflict.

[aupatking]

Are the wakes put out by slalom boats actually measured? Is there such a device that can accurately capture the wake height of a Prostar @ 34mph versus a 21 foot Tahoe at whatever cruising speed is, versus a wake barge @ 18mph, then a surf tanker @ 12mph? Or any other list of boats you could put together.

It would seem a simple ball in a clear tube would show that. If there is such a thing, I think it would be worthwhile to video the gauge and boat that caused the wake as they pass/pass through the course. GoPro mounted behind the tube? I’d contend that even on the side the course is on, with all non-course traffic much further away, that EVERY OTHER BOAT ON THE WATER, is putting out a more damaging wake than ours. As far as any other environmental issue, they aren’t opposed to your brand of boat causing more pollution, so what else is there?

It’s mostly that I just hate people

[Jody_Seal]

@aupatking

Reminder we as a sport (3 event waterskiing) have allowed influential people to guide us into and lumping us all together as "TOAD WATERSPORTS" so now the general public does not have the availability nor the conception that what we do is a far cry different that of the "21 foot Tahoe at whatever cruising speed is, versus a wake barge @ 18mph, then a surf tanker @ 12mph? "

And it is only going to get worse.

[MISkier]

I think we need a few YouTube videos showing just the exact comparison that @aupatking is suggesting. It would be great to see some objective data (including decibel measurements from the massive engines and sound systems) presented in a documentary.

[Chef23]

@"Keith Menard" if you head east toward Boston let me know and if I am around I will be happy to give you a pull. I am gone a lot of weekends but around during the week.

[jcamp]

I actually think this is where submersible courses have made things worse, although through no fault of our own as we've been pushed into them by regulatory and other factors. By only floating the course up for ourselves and then sinking it, it makes it seem much more of a private, "sorry guys, only I can use it" thing, as opposed to a regular course that stays up all the time that everyone can get the benefit from. A course that floats all the time is a win win. We don't have to float and sink it all the time and other people get to use it. It's too bad that the regulatory folks (whether it be government or lake association types) don't see it that way.

[klindy]

@jcamp I agree except for when the course attracts PWC's and other "users" of the course who have nothing invested or nothing to lose if they make someone mad. If it were just a case of other interested slalom skiers wanting to use the course, I totally agree with the concept you mention of "only I can use it". And in reality I would seriously doubt any one of us would say "no" to another slalom skier who used it with the same care and respect we do.

 

Either way, in my opinion, this are the types of issues USA-WSWS should be front and center at with any data, representation, or other helpful advocacy to properly educate the public.

[lpskier]

I applied for a permit for a jump on my lake in NY in 2014. Still waiting for an answer...

[jhughes]

If I didn't know what a slalom course was, and, further, didn't absolutely love the sport, there is NFW I would allow it on my lake. So, I get it completely. We're a niche of a niche of a sport that needs to use 1800x200=360,000sqft of calm, uninterrupted water loaded with buoys, anchors, cables, etc. to do what we absolutely love. That's always going to be a battle on public water so I can't blame anyone who's opposed to it.

[Bdecker]

@jcamp makes a great point. I went through the public hearing witch hunt for a WallyCourse I installed many years ago. Frankly, they made it so difficult to comply that I gave up, moved the course and went to a individual anchor approach with pulleys to sink it.

 

Ironically, “the best fishing spot” on the lake was right under the original location, but I rarely see fishermen ever since I went through the effort to move it. Now by the time I get the buoys up, typically the window has closed.

[oldjeep]

Part of the issue around here is that most of the submersible and permanent courses actually violate minimum no wake distance to shoreline.

[MISkier]

@Bdecker, if you have any photos or design specs on your course with pulleys, I would appreciate a look at those. I've been thinking about such a design for years. Michigan's course permit conditions make a sinkable course an absolute necessity. And, the WallySinker basically requires 10 feet of water. I have 5-8 feet.

[Bdecker]

@MISkier - send me a pm with your email and I’ll send you the master plan (xls doc). It’s about $500 in materials and the guy who developed it was very precise in his descriptions. He’s given me permission to share with anyone who wants it.

[6balls]

This is part of what has pushed us as skiers to private water.

I came to a small town in '02 and living on a lake I was unwilling to put my name on a slalom course permit as a newcomer. Our only chance was a multi-generational family name. We got that done but it's also contentious.

Without that...most other users of the lake see it as you staking claim to that part of the lake in ways others cannot...and it's a big chunk of lake.

My brother has been able to maintain a permit on a lake in the Cities and that's great. From an outsiders perspective, however, that thing is used by very few individuals (a minority). So I can see where a majority would lodge the argument that it should go away.

[A_B]

@lpskier good luck in NY. I applied for a gun permit in ‘85 when I moved in, for the guns I owned from Ohio and Pennsylvania. I’m still waiting too! Thank God I moved out in ‘90 back to OH. Didn’t even have a speeding ticket on my record.

 

Should probably drop it in and ask forgiveness later. Or move out of state.

[DW]

One unfortunate aspect of course skiing and a perceived wake by a ski boat is the speed. The uninformed will tend to associate wakes with speed so simply by default and no actual measurement, the general populous will think a ski boat = damaging wakes. And damn if it is not hard to convince them otherwise. Slalom courses in my experience are fish magnets so by default, the fishermen beeline straight to the course.

[ScottScott]

@DW Yes, the fisherman like the course....then get irritated when you try to use it.

 

The perceived wake is true in reverse also, I've been skiing on small lake on a public chain, and they will drive around in a bow rider at 10-15 mph thinking they are being courteous to not disturb your skiing, ignorant of the fact that they are creating the largest rollers they can.

 

Yes, a ski boat close to shore at 30-36mph is having much less impact on the shoreline than a surf boat at 10mph way out in the middle of the lake.

[LeonL]

All good comments. The permit allowing one hour of use three days a week, gee I'd just forget it under those restrictions. The guy has more desire than me.

[Keith_Menard]

@Bdecker I think @pregom and I would be interested in that!

[slow]

If I was not a water skier I definitely wouldn’t want a course permitted in front of my property and clearly that is the feeling on the lake. Lake property is a big investment. Having a course permitted in front of your property feels like an incroachment.

[Ed_Johnson]

@slow ... The other view is that the slalom course will actually increase value. The only reason I, and a couple of others, live on our Lake here in Orlando, is the 25 year old permitted Slalom Course, right in front of our house. Also, 3 out of 5 of us on the Lake Board of Directors are Slalom Skiers, thus ensuring longevity.

 

[Than_Bogan]

We really need a collective attitude that recreational exercise activities are a Just Plain Good Thing, even if we don't happen to participate in a particular activity.

 

All in this together, or we'll all stop each other from doing ANYTHING!

[slow]

Ed, It may increase the value to you, but not to non water skiers. I suspect in most places you would be buying at a discount becouse a course is permitted in front of you. At least that is the way it is on our lake with being water skiers being about 0.5% of the home owners.

[braindamage]

Help me understand. Legitimately. I am a strong skier advocate and in general a “live and let live” kind of guy.

 

If it’s a temporary course, when it’s not in use and sunken, does it restrict anyone from doing what they want?

 

I get the potential objections to noise and shoreline distance ordinances.

 

@ScottScott makes a good point that people associate speed with wake damage, and that is just a case of not thinking things through.

 

@slow makes a good point that the majority of lakefront owners aren’t skiers so property valuation is probably impacted

 

What is our best “pitch” that we can all use (with facts, studies, empirical evidence, logic, and physics) that we could build and publish to help out our fellow skiers?

 

If you ask me, the waterski association would be better served publishing documentation like this along with positive PR than working on more arcane competition rules.

 

Just my $.02

[Boatman]

It took us 10 years to get a permit. We were only allowed a 4 ball course, it had hours for usage, had to be submerged when not in use, and we needed four outside corner marker bouys that said ski course on them. To set up the course we snagged the mainline and then worked our way down clipping on the balls. By the time we finally got it set up in the morning the wind was up and other boat traffic was out. WE finally just gave up. It wasn't worth it. :/

[MISkier]

@Boatman, without even looking at your profile and just reading those ridiculous conditions, I knew you had to live in Michigan.

[ellenm]

We just got approval on a permitted course on our lake in Orlando. The process took about 10 months. According to Orange County, it's the 3rd course to be permitted within the past 15 years. We had a hearing last week and several property owners showed up to oppose it (2 attorneys were there representing property owners) and we still won. Historically there had been a course on the lake 15 years ago but when someone complained about the course, we could not find a record of the permit. First we moved the course away from the complaining party's dock to the other side of the lake. When the owners on the other side of the lake complained, we filed for a permit. Out of 50+ land owners around the lake, about 7 complained so we made sure the course didn't touch their land/water rights. Although it's not the ideal position for a course, it's legal now. We were also told we could certainly place a floating course temporarily in a more protected location of the lake for a period of 1-2 weeks at a time.

[Ed_Johnson]

@ellenm ... What Lake are you on and what section of Orlando ?

I know when we moved from West Palm to Orlando in 04, we only looked for homes with permitted Slalom Courses and low Walley count. Lucked out here in SE Orlando, only 10 mins. from Performance and LaPoint Ski Park, and the Airport.

 

 

 

[Mateo_Vargas]

My buddy has the patent on GPS controlled buoys and I keep telling him to hurry the hell up. He’s still waiting until the costs come down on the technology needed for accuracy.

 

Imagine dumping your bag of buoys over the side of the boat and they go to their places. When you are done take your balls and go home.

[OSUwaterskier]

Now that’s how you revolutionize skiing ^

[Bdecker]

@"Mateo Vargas" sounds awesome. Would be great if they could be programmed for multiple locations so you could deal with wind and spread the activity around. Tell him to hurry up, I'd like mine by June 15th or so...

[DW]

@"Mateo Vargas" : Do you know what the accuracy / tolerance is on the system? Would be a great addition to the sport.

[BraceMaker]

Have him figure out a way to have all the bouys go back to a "pen" for the people who live on a lake so you can just have them go to sleep for the night.

[LeonL]

I know this has been mentioned before, but despite acquiring a patent I foresee an almost insurmountable challenge with a drive mechanism and the battery power to hold them in position for extended periods of time. I also think the cost would be prohibitive.

[WBLskier]

I’m sure this is not a new idea either but what about a retractable anchor that drops into place once in position and retracts when done?