Is Cold Water slower and what should wing angle be as water warms up?

[cruznski]

So there was a recent post on slalom misconceptions. I looked about a bit in the forum, and yet to this day I think there is not any agreement (and maybe there does not need to be- maybe wing angle is the least thing of concern) as to what to do with wing angle as the water warms up. Bringing this up as we had a real warm up here over the past week. A friend surprised me with a photo from the temp in their boat gauge at a man made lake, water temp was 72 deg last week while we are skiing 12 deg less than that water temp.

Is cold water slower? So, warmer water= add wing angle as in 0.5 deg? Or set the wing in cold and let that be it (I think I saw that last fall something about some guy who skis in Indiana or the like).

Or perhaps take the wing off and set the fin correctly? Just threw that in. There may be a place in the forum that covers this already. Yet I do think it is an area of misconception.

[eleeski]

In cold water, the ski rides higher and the water feels harder making you carry more speed into the buoy. Wings used to be called brakes. More angle equals more brake? Add more wing angle when the water gets cold.

 

There's a limit to how much wing angle you can have before cavitation occurs. I like the wing near the cavitation limit so I don't have much adjustment left.

 

"Slow" or "fast" water means different things to different people. To me, cold water feels like I'm being pulled at a faster speed. I have to drop my speed to get the same buoy count. So I call cold water "fast". And I hate cold water - brrr.

 

Eric

[bkreis]

in most cases, I have found it's our bodies being stiff/tight in colder conditions that make the difference...some skis are sensitive to cold and may need "something". for me, I warm up longer when it's chilly.....had a nice conversation with @twhisper about this topic.

[T_C]

I think a conversation with @twhisper would be something like "shut up and ski".

[nleuth]

@scotchipman I messed around with several different cold water settings this last fall. I also found that the ski performed better as a decreased wing angle in colder water. That is for my Connelly GT.

[Ed_Johnson]

I never want to go against Skijay or Rossi in the knowledge department, however, just from years of experience, I know when the water gets colder the ski rides higher, and I have a harder time SLOWING it down. Adding a little wing helps to slow it down.

Conversely, when it gets warmer and starts to feel like syrup, taking some wing out helps to keep speed up. I know all the physics behind this, but I have to go with what I feel and what works for me.

 

 

[SkiJay]

It's complicated.

 

Phenomenon #1: The wing affects how the ski behaves in a number of subtle ways. Its least subtle effect is that it adds drag—a little drag while accelerating and more drag while decelerating into the ball (due to an effective wing angle change when the ski rocks forward in mid pre-turn).

 

Phenomenon #2: The more we can safely load the tip of the ski (i.e. stay ahead of the ski, move our balance over the front foot, etc.), the faster it will accelerate, the better it will decelerate into the ball, the tighter the turn's radius will be, and the better the tip will stay down while transitioning from the exit of the turn into the cut. All of this is good, but ...

 

Phenomenon #3: All skiers have a limit to how much tip pressure they are comfortable with. Getting too far over the tip of the ski makes us feel exposed to going out the front (learned through painful experience), so we form subconscious limits to how far over the tip we tend to stand on the ski. Shrinking this "tip-avoidance comfort zone" is a big part of technique improvement.

 

If we add wing angle, most skiers will immediately ski better—regardless of water temp. This is because the additional drag causes the ski to be dragged more behind us (making us load the tip more) in response to our habitual technique. But most skiers will only enjoy the benefits of having moved further over the tip for only a few passes or sets. Our subconscious self-preservation instincts don't like the new feeling of being more exposed to going out the front, and cause us to move back to our habitual balance point over the ski. In short, the benefits of being tipped further forward on the ski are temporary, but the additional drag remains indefinitely.

 

When skiers REDUCE wing angle for cold water, the benefits can be less obvious. Reducing drag to what it normally is during the season feels good and adds width, but the reduced drag can cause them to fall back on the ski—not a good thing. But here too, subconscious adjustments are made quickly, returning the skier to their normal balance point over the ski.

 

So which wing change is better? Cold water is more viscous than warm water. That means more drag must be overcome to get wide and early in the course. And since we quickly compensate for wing changes in either direction, my preference is dictated by the long term effect of the change. Cooling water increases drag, so I reduce that drag by using less wing angle. Keeping drag relatively constant avoids jacking up the effort required and minimizes challenging balance changes.

 

Wing angle changes can't address all of the issues associated with cooling water. Our muscles are still tighter, and the water is still firmer making the ski carve more, smear less and ride higher—but we can't adjust for these things. All we can do is strive to adjust athletically so we can ski more precisely through a less forgiving fluid. Why further complicate this challenge by adding even more drag?

[EricKelley]

I think that there is only more drag in cooler water for those parts of the ski which are submerged.

There will be less drag on the ski itself(not fin and wing)because it will ride higher on the water(all performance boats are several mph faster in salt and cooler water.....for sure!)

I believe that increased lift of the tail and corresponding increase of wet area of the tip of the ski is the most significant factor in the way our skis feel.

For me decrease in wing angle, moving fin forward, decreasing depth help.

I just try to survive with a good attitude til warmer temps arrive. Fun to play with these things though.

[UWSkier]

As a guy who's oversized for his ski, I find skiing in cold water much easier in terms of getting on the front of the ski and having it ride and turn how I see the smaller guys doing it in the warmer water. The higher ride height is great for me. Though that combined with the less "smear" can lead to some wild OTFs if not careful. :)

[eleeski]

Surface tension of cold water is higher (note how a drop of water in a pan spreads out as it heats up). Does this surface tension make the ski ride higher? Maybe the extra viscosity? It sure feels like the ski rides higher in cold water.

 

Less ski in the water, less area for drag. I have to work harder to slow the ski down when it's cold. And it's harder to roll the ski over to get the ski to perform. Just like as if I sped up.

 

Wing settings have so many effects which vary from ski to ski and skier to skier that a strict rule of adjustment for temperature won't always work.

 

On snow, ice is denser, more viscous, colder and way faster than powder.

 

Cold water is faster.

 

Eric

[ozski]

@bkreis As if Miami water actually gets cold.....

[Jmoski]

+1 on cold water = fast water

 

My guess is the increase in surface tension is far more impactful on the skiers ability to accelerate than the negative acceleration influence of additional drag due to increased viscosity.

 

Surface tension is what is pushing back on your ski as you press it against the water, the higher the tension - the harder you can push, the faster you go.

 

We would have to rig a ski with a bunch of strain gauges and pressure transducers to know for sure.

[cruznski]

This is fascinating to me. @scotchipman as you point out, water is slightly denser as it gets colder for example it is 0.99922 g/cm3 at 57 degF vs 0.99583 g/cm3 @85 degF- temp swings we might see. That is only 1/4 of 1% difference in density. Saltwater is MUCH denser by comparison- 1.025 g/cm3, (basically 2.5% denser) and yes boats go faster in salt, got that. @nleuth I know you have COLD water to deal with, and knowing how you ski believe you on better performance with less wing in real cold. That's what I have found although I would discount my data somewhat. And @SkiJay thanks for that informative post. Somewhere too I recall that adjusting fin and wing when water is denser (colder) it is more easy to feel/see the differences so it's a good time to be trying these things out.

[Horton]

If cold water was faster than it would be easier to be wider and earlier. Seems to me like when the water is cold everybody runs a shallow line at the buoy so it seems faster. The reality is if you can make more speed the slalom course will seem slow. if you can't make speed in your skiing at the ball it's going to seem fast

[cruznski]

@scotchipman low 40s that is rigorous. Thinking about this- in the cold, real wide and early is rare to see for a lot of us as you both mention. So it seems fast. Edge changes are more stuck, the ski is not out in front as much perhaps.

[eleeski]

The best scores at 34 are close to a full pass lower than at 36. Speed helps at very deep shortline. Some styles imitate deep shortline and will benefit from cold water or excess speed. Cold water and its associated speed will give this skier more time wide - and thus feel slower.

 

My style, no way is the speed helpful.

 

Eric

[Milford]

I have spent a significant amount of time testing cold water settings and have found that when the water drops below 65 degrees, I move my bindings forward and my fin forward. Wing angle, depth and length all stay the same. Scores are never "as good" as skiing in 80 degree water, but I find that this simple move takes care of most of the cold water issues.