Virtual Slalom Skiing

[pregom]

I just saw an article on the USA Waterski site for a new app that allows you to slalom virtually. Does anybody have more details?

[greghayes]

It looks like the best thing to do is sign up for the free beta on the site you posted.

 

It’s nice to see USA Waterski promoting some tech innovation.

[Alberto Soares]

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[pregom]

@greghayes, yes, I signed up for their beta program. Here is the original article that I saw. I was wondering if anyone in the know could give a more in depth preview of what to expect. Are you supposed to wear your iPhone while you ski? It seems it might be something more than just sitting in your favorite couch wearing goggles and pretending to be skiing...

[UWSkier]

I still wonder how they're going to do the augmented reality piece and have it keep up with everything going on with the skiers body and position vs time.

[bigskieridaho]

Get your kiddie pool out and put your ski on!

[klindy]

I’m happy to answer questions the best I can.

 

The app has multiple phases the last of which is planned to include augmented reality. The first phase, which is due early this summer, is an app that runs in your iPhone in the boat. After logging on, the app uses the video and various sensors in the phone to keep track of the direction of travel and the skier path. After a “pass” the software translates skier oath into a score.

 

Since the iPhone sensors use the GPS and gyros to determine where the skier is relative to a slalom course the buoys are optional. Obviously It’ll be easier for the skier to know they are wide enough if the buoys are in the course.

[Wish]

Does it require a pylon camera mount specifics to app or otherwise for tracking? Or can a person just hold it and follow the skier?

[klindy]

@wish my understanding is you can hold the camera or pylon mount it. There is supposed to be an on screen frame guide that helps someone holding the camera keep it focused.

 

My guess is the system will require the skier to be in the frame all the time. I’m not sure how tolerant it will be.

[pregom]

Oh, I see, it's pylon mounted, at least in the first phase. If I remember correctly, somewhere I read about putting tape markers along the sides of the boat: if the rope reaches the markers, the skier made it around the virtual buoys. So this seems an evolution of that idea where the GPS and gyro sensors of the phone replace the tape markers.

[klindy]

@pregom I don’t think you need a pylon mount for the first version either. And while the software/app is quite a bit more sophisticated than just “replacing the tape markers”, your comment is functionally correct.

 

The idea is quite interesting and the app is really very well designed and thought out.

[pregom]

@klindy, looking forward to trying it out.

[greghayes]

I had to be a little coy until I got the go-ahead to talk details about this from Jennifer Leachman-Lapoint. I've been working closely with her and we are racing to get the beta to market this summer with the best fidelity possible. As anyone involved with software knows, this will be a buggy, iterative process - but we NEED participation and data from all kinds of different places and conditions to make the product more accurate and most importantly, more FUN.

 

A critical goal of this project is to turn any lake into a slalom course. Long-term success is to see more people swerving and participating in slalom outside of the private lake scene. Help us raise the visibility of slalom - even without buoys it just looks cool and will inspire others to come out and play.

 

And for us BALLERS, there will be a league for slalom with real buoys too. So, we also aspire to make this a useful virtual leaderboard to log your scores with video proof and GPS verification, especially for those who can't make it to tournaments.

 

To confirm previous comments, no camera mount is required, but mounting it is just fine. While the accuracy is probably better with a pylon mount (depending on the steadiness of your cameraperson), one of our design mandates was to require nothing new from the player - no hardware to buy, no pouch to hold your phone, etc. Many approaches were considered and thrown away because they created too much friction and discouraged participation.

 

Thank you @pregom @Wish @klindy @Alberto Soares @UWSkier and especially USA Waterski for contributing and noticing the product. We sincerely appreciate any and all efforts to spread the word.

[pregom]

Bring it on, @greghayes, I think there are a few techies in this forum that can shake out all the bugs in no time :wink:

[swerveit]

@anyone, I actually work for a AR/Software company, has anyone got these guys contact details? I may or may not be able to help...

Ive gone via the website however its a little limited in terms of direct contact details/email

[pregom]

@swerveit, your best bet probably is to PM @greghayes and see what he says.

[klindy]

@swerveit I'm also happy to get you in contact with Greg or Jennifer. Send me a PM with some contact info and I'll connect you.

[skiandbehappy]

Hi to All,

 

Thanks for the interest in VSS. I would be happy to take calls and emails from anyone with a question or suggestion. Also, anyone that wants to join the all volunteer team would be welcomed. This will only be a success if the talented people from the sport come together for a joint effort of ideas and support. I really want to thank AWSA for their founding sponsorship, especially Gordon Hall from Texas, for his early support to bring this to life.

 

The BETA will be just that, a test run. We need lots more funding to get it right, add Android version and the really fun features planned. As a guess, we will need at least 10k-20k per new feature. We look forward to lots of testers and feedback...especially in this phase of buggy and not that complex...hopefully you will at least see the vision of where this could go.

 

We will need lots of Venture Capital to get where we want to go and investors want to see how many users we have. We need skiers to use Virtual Slalom Skiing as often as possible to make sure our retention rate is strong. The product is meant for a skier to film themselves every time he/she skis to get a score and keep his/her real-time ranking up. Basically, VSS should allow for competing every time you ski, making practice feel like a tournament and hopefully ski course or open water skiing should be more fun.

 

The AR goggles are the most exciting idea and frankly the idea is just a bit ahead of the design of the current AR goggles in the market place. We have done some testing with three brands of goggles so far, but nothing is ideal yet. We need to deal with field of vision, fogging, waterproofing and floatation issues and of course we need lots more R&D funding.

 

Thank you to all the skiers that have helped so far:

Greg Hayes - Product Development.

Thomas and Alana Latiolais - Empilio -Branding and imagery

Todd and Sarah Ristorcelli - Orlando Content Marketing -

Taylor Woolsey - product development

Alex De Gunsburg - Business Development Advisory Board

Paul Nolan - Infinibrand - developer

Gordon Hall - Scoring System

Erik Boone - AR R&D.

Michael DeMello - Business Development Advisory board

Vince Bahk - Marketing

John Wilkins - Legal

and of course LOTS OF COOL PEOPLE DONATED ON GO FUND ME!!!

 

If you want to reach me or join the team contact me at teamlapoint@gmail.com or by phone 407-619-4602.

 

PS. If you would like to know more about investing, the project should be on on STARTENGINE.com in the next week under the COMPETE Brand name. This is a crowd funding platform that offers a stock position in the project for a minimum investment of $100.

 

 

 

 

[pregom]

Will this app try to detect and track the skier’s ski around the (virtual) buoys using sofisticated computer vision algorithms or will it try to detect and track just the rope angle from the phone’s point of view in the boat?

[klindy]

@pregom @greghayes and/or @skiandbehappy may have more to add but I believe the software targets the skier location in the field of view and the rope angle isn’t part of the process. Since the iPhone can be handheld or pylon mounted there are too many variables in being able to see the rope much less determining its angle from the direction of travel.

[greghayes]

@pregom The software is taking into account many variables from GPS, compass, video and more to create the scoring. Our ambition is to make the scoring meaningful from a coaching standpoint too. We all know from experience that some passes are better "quality" than others and we want to recognize and reward behaviors that will lead to long term skiing improvement and plan to train the software to do so.

 

This is an ambitious project and as @skiandbehappy says, it will take time and funding to add everything we (and more importantly, the skiing community) want to implement. Direct feedback during the beta program will largely determine the roadmap - so please continue to speak up.

[WoodySkier]

http://forum.ballofspray.com/discussion/18066/jennifer-leachman-lapoint-announces-launch-of-phone-app-with-augmented-reality-slalom-course

[WoodySkier]

http://forum.ballofspray.com/discussion/18066/jennifer-leachman-lapoint-announces-launch-of-phone-app-with-augmented-reality-slalom-course

[pregom]

Ah, great, that thread from a year ago presents the vision JLP has for this app (and for the sport). From the comments in this thread, the A/R version of the app will not happen in the immediate future. The upcoming beta version will require just an iPhone. As a skier, I guess I would miss the immediate feedback of wether I made it around the virtual buoys and I would have to wait for signals from the observer in the boat or for a replay at the end of my pass. I am looking forward to trying out!

[Mickski]

Has anyone tried it yet? I’m going to test it tomorrow night on open water.

[BraceMaker]

Im also curious. I dont want to bring my ipad in the boat. Thinking if pickig up a cheap iphone but does ths appnrequire live data or can it wifi upload later?

[Glydon]

@Mickski please let us know how it goes ...

 

[WIRiverRat]

I played around with it a week ago on my wife's phone (she is the only one with an iPhone). It is a fun thing to do while free skiing. It was a good coaching tool while free skiing as it shows your rhythm and widtch in relation to where buoys would be. For someone who skis the course regularly I was amazed at just how accurately I ''ran the course" while free skiing. Timing and width showed I was darn near perfect for a -32 pass. When my wife skied we were able to see that her free skiing is not nearly as aggressive as her course skiing as she only made 5 turns over the length of the course and was quite a bit narrow. After showing her the path she took she made adjustments and was getting wider.

There is a scoreboard to compare yourselves to others. My wife really liked that as my score was on her phone so she went back to the dock and showed everyone that she was ranked 12th in the world at the time, then later that night told me I had better try next time and get her in the top 10.

[Andre]

Would really like to see a screen shot from this...

[Mickski]

 

Myself and 2 ski buddies got a chance to try it out tonight. The app at a high level and considering its a beta release was a ton of fun!! We didn’t have a course tonight but it gave us motivation for each run to one-up each other’s score. I also like the social aspect of it to see where you rank on the leaderboard. It also records video of your pass and allows you to see video of the leaderboard passes. All in all it was simple to use and met my expectations.

[BraceMaker]

@skiandbehappy will it run with out data and upload on wifi?

[klindy]

@Mickski Glad you had fun with it! Your experience is exactly the goal!

 

Remember there's a Labor Day Challenge that @Virtual_Slalom_1 posted a week or so ago. More information in this thread.

 

Share the experience with more friends!!

 

I'd sure like to hear more people talk about their experience too!!

[JAS]

Tried to use this morning but couldn’t get app to start filming. Any suggestions? Maybe d I need to re-load?

[Gus]

 

Great! I never slalom, no course on the River; always trick. I once tried a course 2 years ago and could not make it and gave up after 2 tries; back to tricking. But I think, with this app - I might pick up slalom again.

It takes a bit of instruction for non-skiers to operate the camera and drive the boat, but they managed.

I like that its tolerant, I did get some 'points' :) The 'trimming' could be a tad easier, have to tap(and hold) the < and > thingies; would be nicer to touch and move.

But I'm going to do this more often, its fun! Great app!

 

[Gus]

I think the goal/vision for the app should be that people without a course, can learn to ski a course using this app. Well at least the middle parts of it - learning to time the entry gate remains a bit of a challenge when free skiing i'm afraid.

A waterproof augmented reality system seems still quite far away. But that would be long term vision as well.

 

For the short term, some ideas for the backlog - I'm only looking at the 'free skiing' usage; when you do have a course I don't see the point of using the app (except for validation; and maybe later automated scoring):

 

- I read in the FAQ of the app that in free skiing mode you don't have to enter a speed. Thats not correct, you do have to enter a speed. Unclear how it affects the score. But the S-pattern looks ok; I remember from my two attempts at a real course, also at 15 off and 24.9mph that I had a similar result of 1 buoy and almost making it to 2nd bouy. So maybe fix the FAQ?

- Allow additional 'guest' profiles per iPhone (one main account and some 'guests'). That gets the android crowd on-board already and promotes 'in family/friend group competition'.

- I think the points system is fun the way it is, but it does bump into critiques like 'How can you get points when you missed the entry-gate?'. There's a philosophical discussion there and I guess the main point is that its easy to manipulate the system so a ranking doesn't make much sense for now, but why not just do both: one free skiing special type of scoring and one 'official slalom score'. Both are helpful, and more importantly, the official one kills that kind of critique. Seems fun to program that.

 

For learning to time the entry-gate.. adding just two bouys in free water is a lot easier than an entire slalom course.. maybe something like that could solve this problem? Or is there some pre-entry-gate bouy that slalom use to orient themselves to?

[Gus]

More feedback:

Yesterday we tried again. I noticed two issues:

1. Duplicate activities - somehow the activities from sep 1st got duplicated. Might have something to do with the activity on sep 2nd.

2. I was a bit disappointed with the 1458 score (graph below), comparing to the graph of the 1564 score(graph above, earlier post), the 1458 looks much better. Don't understand..

 

Duplicates:

Graph 2/1458 score:

 

 

[Wish]

@Gus off topic but that's a great looking boat you have there.

[Gus]

:smile: Thanks!

[BraceMaker]

@Gus seems like it probably prioritizes early to the ball for points. You were "early" to three balls on the 15.. score. The 14.. score you had a gate and one ball and the rest were late.

[Gus]

@BraceMaker That must be it! Makes sense. I trimmed on the entry gate; probably the score would have been higher when trimmed on the first three balls. I can see how that eventually pushes you towards getting 'earlier' on more balls. I wouldn't have realized that by myself as I'm too much of a slalom noob. Thanks a lot!

 

Quick slalom question: should I proceed with the 24.9mph until I can make six balls, or would it be easier to go up a notch in speed? I've got a KD 7000 - 'old but good' as a pro told me, but it feels a bit like its ploughing.

 

Amazing - this app has got me thinking about slalom..

[loeweb]

I’ve used the app a couple times with some buddies and I absolutely love it!

Not being a course skier at all, I feel it makes me push my tempo and (try) to edge harder through turns.

 

There’s also a lot of ribbing going on when the pecking order is disrupted. Even if it is camera man error.

 

It’s a great starting point for anyone wanting to become a better skier.

 

It’s the greatest thing to happen to slalom skiing since the course!

[BraceMaker]

@Gus I like slow but there are boat/ski limitations. Like any sport you need to match the gear to the activity, since you trick ski I would think youd like to stay slower and get a ski that accommodates the lower speeds rather than speed up till that ski doesnt drag.but there are also boat considerations some hulls throw monster wakes at 25 mph.

[BadgerwannaB]

Ok, I have a really dumb question but what is the name of the app in the Apple App store? I have searched several different ways and have yet to find it on my IPAD. I am really excited to try it out!!

[BraceMaker]

@BadgerwannaB turn off the ipad filter. The app works on ipad but is listed as IPhone only.

[BadgerwannaB]

Thanks @BraceMaker, will give it a shot tonight!

[OSUwaterskier]

App was a ton of fun! Really looking forward to getting back out there and giving it another go.

 

Can someone explain the differences in the 'Camera Position' options? Maybe Port/Starboard or Passenger/Driver would be a little more clear as opposed to Left/Right. With the cameraman on the port side of the passenger seat in a 196, we seemed to get the best results on 'Center.' Left and Right were giving some wacky results. Maybe Center is the best option for a traditional 3-event boat? Thanks!

[mxhideout]

I tried using the app on Friday with an iPad but couldn't get it to work. Put the settings in (free ski, 15' off, 26mph, hand held) but when I put the camera on the skier, there was no button to record. It just gave the directions for aiming it behind the boat and wait until it starts moving. Well, I tried keeping it on the skier for a few minutes making turns but nothing happened. Am I doing something wrong?

[Gus]

@mxhideout Maybe you have a wifi-only iPad model. The app needs the speed, so it needs the GPS and some iPad models don't have GPS.

[mxhideout]

You may be right, @Gus. I'm not familiar with that iPad since it's not mine. So, I guess I have to find a friend that has a newer iPhone that does slalom because I'm not spending 1k on a phone, let alone an Apple product...

[ShererSkier]

I’m going to try it out tonight for the first time. We’ll see how it goes. One thing I’m not sure about is how the app judges entry gates... does it just input as a gate when you cross center for the first time?