How much should a new boat cost?

[AU_Skier]

@Kelvin - I think you have the balance right

[Horton]

@shell I don't think brand loyalty is exactly the problem was with CarbonPro but you are close. It's more that consumers just didn't know if they could trust the brand or not. It's not like going from Nautique to Mastercraft to Malibu. We all have pretty firm impressions of those products. With the Centurion people just didn't know if they were good or not so especially on the resale market they were hard to sell. The other problem was of course you could get a used Big Brand boat for just a little bit more than a almost new Centurion so the decision to buy the Centurion was even harder.

 

 

[The_MS]

I would buy a CP tomorrow if I knew I could turn it in a few years.

[DynaSkiPete]

With the logic or guess at the bottom of this people are not understanding of how business works for toys. Higher risk means higher profits (rewards) are expected. Unless you custom build stuff to order using the buyers money the profit ratio is what I'm telling you. Dealers often charge 20% to 35% on boats and 40% to 50% on accessories. Parts are around 35%. Don't forget most dealers pay interest on inventory.

 

We won't be building an inboard soon if ever. The big 3 do an excellent job. Trying to sell against them is crazy. Price alone won't do it. Spending a couple million dollars to make a better mouse trap and then jump thru all the hoops for approval to hopefully crack the market is not a wise investment. Many have tried and failed. Besides an outboard can be made to do almost all the same things with a Mercury Four Stroke and Smart Tow with the programmable launch system I'm told by an end user. Fat Sacs can provide the bigger wake if one is desired although the two and three motored 20' Closed Bows can make monster wakes if desired. With more than one motor the ski wake suffers some.

 

Realistically I think manufacturers make between 18 and 22% and dealers probably make the same margin. If you do the math backwards and you're a smart buyer (not the rube who pays MSRP) I think you realize the price of boats is not unreasonable. A business person working for a lower margin than that is not a very good business person or is a very high-volume business.

[jjackkrash]

A boat dealer generally needs to make 18% on a boat just to keep the lights on. Then it needs to make a profit.

[The_MS]

MAGA

[sunvalleylaw]

I guess I believe this is not a ridiculous thread in that if one considers the thread title and the originally posed question, as against the desire to grow the sport, (I am defining the sport as slalom skiing, the focus here), high cost of entry is relevant. Along with access to good water, and a course, as @Horton pointed out in a podcast last year and elsewhere.

 

I get what everyone is saying about margins, risk, etc. Hard nut to crack. As others have suggested, having the used market in line with what people can afford is key. Another road is retrofitting a pre-zero-off boat, if one can't afford a boat with zero-off on it. I couldn't right now at what they are costing. But it takes some amount of dedication to find a suitable boat for upgrade, find someone to do the work, and go through that process. As opposed to buying a used boat ready to go. Which I think speaks to @Ilivetoski 's point about the used market and barriers to entry into the sport of his demographic, young skiers coming out of school fired up to ski.

[Anderson]

@Kelvin I was the lucky skier who bought the 2015 Carbon Pro. It has been a great boat. Fit and finish don't match the big three, tracking doesn't match a 200, but the wake is absolutely butter and it has been a great boat for us. @Live2ski, I know boats are silly expensive, but if you are creative you will find a way. Most of us either can't afford a new boat now, or we didn't start off that way, but if you want to ski you will find a way. Don't assume you need to own your own boat outright, or that it needs to be a fairly new model of the big three. I missed out on lots of skiing during grad school and early in my career when I didn't have any money because I wasn't willing to rethink the model. My last point of advice is that there is a 10 year period when many people get out of skiing (mid-twenties to mid-thirties) -- don't let that happen you will regret it. Good luck and have fun!

[LeonL]

@Ilivetoski hasn't corrected you guys, but I need to mention that it's @Ilivetoski and not @Live2ski who has been posting on this thread.

[Kelvin]

@Anderson My neighbor/ski partner bought the other promo/demo they had on the lot at the time you bought yours. They have been really happy with the purchase. I enjoy driving it from time to time.

[PeterAK]

As a recreational skier, I'm thankful for the folks who are willing to pay whatever the new boats cost. I'm on my third direct drive boat (having owned two in my late 20's - early 30's and have now, in my early 40's, bought back in). Current boat is a '92 Prostar 190, total invested is under $9,500, which includes the typical stuff needed for a boat this age (new hoses, fluids, trailer tires, and minor repairs). Most expensive was a TriStar I paid $10k for and sold for... $10k after enjoying it for a few years. Least expensive was a Centurion that I made a couple thousand on when I sold.

 

Maybe some day I'll buy a boat that is expensive enough to lose some real money on. :smiley:

[RINLE]

I just looked at the price of new bass boats. Damn, its not just a new ski boat issue.

 

[andjules]

@RINLE you're right it's not just a ski boat issue. It's a whole "lake life" issue. 50 years ago, the percent of household income required to own a boat, trailer, and maybe even a cabin by the lake... well, it didn't require you to be a C-level executive.

[Onside135]

@RINLE Perfect...maybe Dyna-Ski can start marketing boats to the bass fishing crowd?

[Ilivetoski]

@skierjp you cannot compare the car and boat market. Virtually everyone is, at some point in their life, in the market for a car. When that Corvette gets up to $100K, the people who can afford that level of car consider purchasing it. I guarantee the people who used to be able to afford a corvette when they were $50K are in fact complaining about the price of a new ZR-1. I’m not too sure what your point is about the price of these these things. Yeah you can spend $90K on a pickup but you can spend $30K also... the ski boat market is all F-250 King Ranches that will sell for that $90K... there’s no F-150 base model for $30K

[DynaSkiPete]

We already build a line of fishing boats in the boat shop. The fishing boat market is much bigger than the water ski market. Helps keep our prices down along with no dealers.

 

If new buyers would not purchase in mass the prices of anything will come down to some degree. It works in the used boat market all the time as asking prices are seldom paid unless they are realistic ones or the buyer/sellers unaware. Remember asking is often not selling and everyone wants a great deal thanks to TV shows like Pickers. "I need some meat on the bones" . . . . . . oops off topic sorry.

 

There is a lot of good information on this topic I feel and I started the post.

[RAWSki]

@skierjp mentioned Corvettes in comparison to ski boats. It's an interesting idea, of course the volumes are much different. But what GM has managed to do is keep an entry level Vette 'reasonably' priced. Now do they sell many at $56K? ( It seems all the boat makers blew up the 'entry level' concept a long time ago). Perhaps they realized the used market would fill the entry level need like @Horton mentioned.

 

@Horton agree to a point on the CP, Shell and I have had many discussions and seen people on our lake go blindly back to their MC, Bu, SN dealer for their next boat without truly shopping. It's interesting---- now some of it may be the dealer relationship as much as the boat brand. I have chatted with people that admire the CP, or even directed some to the MC for the open bow option and I hear.... "But I'm a Nautique Guy" or "I have always had Malibu's". Can't blame them I just as bad.... I've been happy with Centurions for 25 years and have a great dealer to boot. Just really glad I could convert @Shell from Nautique to Centurion before the wedding$$$!

 

[RINLE]

Pete, would love to see how your boats perform. Not sure you ever travel to Tennessee but it could expose your boat to several people if we arranged for you or someone you know with one down here to come help with our Adaptive Ski Clinic. We probably would not want it as a chase boat, because of the prop off the back, but you could totally be a tow boat.

[LeonL]

I'm gonna raise some ire, I know, but here goes. Back when the CP first came out I was contacted by a rep wanting to place a promo. I said that I had a boat and couldn't foresee a quick sale at that time and 2 boats was out of the question. He was eager to get exposure for the boat, an hopefully enough tournaments to get regional and national qualification. I told him the best I could would be take a boat at no cost and assured him that I could get the boat used in at least 6 tournaments prior to regionals. Of course he declined.

Fast forward 2 years and a promo came to our area. Here comes raising the ire, so pile on. I drove it at a tournament and found it to be a tough drive for 38 and shorter guys. That guy couldn't turn at the end of the year and kept it another year. Sold it and bought a used 200. Someone at our site bought one and it drove like the first one mentioned above. Skied behind it on a windy day and at 35 headwind the spray was pretty bad. In the midst of the Cottonwood episode @skidawg said his boat was a hand full. May no be an exact quote, that was the gist.

Bottom line it may not have been the fact that buyers won't go for no frills boats but it just didn't perform up to the established standards some people expect.

All the above are facts except the previous paragraph, which is clearly speculation.

[ShererSkier]

I think the technology, R&D and the costs of all the equipment in new boats are the reason prices are so high. The boat companies are in business to make advancements in boats and make money doing it. People that make a lot of money will not care about paying 90-140k for a new boat. This will always keep the used market high. But as others have said, there are affordable boats that get the job done. I ski behind a 86 MC and am starting to run into 32 off. At this point in time I don’t really care that my boat is a year older than me or not a ZO boat (would be nice though). Or that I get pelted with boat spray on shortline and it’s hard to drive through the course. I’m never going to compete at a level that requires me to have the newest boat to ski behind for practice, and I’m starting to get into 32 off!!! I think more people should care less about the age and gadgets on their boat and more about what they can do behind it... have fun and ski!

 

All that said, I do understand that for the aspiring tourney skier it is a hard ask to drop that much on equipment to train with but that’s where the sport is at right now. The best thing I would try is to find a club that has the boat you want to ski behind or go in halfway with someone like others have said.

[RAWSki]

@LeonL that's a fair assessment of the 2011-13 CP models. I think they became much better in 2014 and as @Horton mentioned seemed to improve a bit each year after thru 2017. To each their own opinion . I really don't have an issue skiing behind any of the 4 approved boats at a tournament . If you have good drivers they can give you an excellent ride .

[MISkier]

I got my best score at Tuesday's tournament behind @RAWSki Centurion. I like the way it skis. I didn't drive the 2017, but I drove his 2014 before and it performed very well.

 

By the way, @RAWSki also smashed his PB at that same Tuesday tournament.

[Horton]

If you drive a nautique 200 everyday jumping into a centurion would be a shock but an experienced centurion driver can drive just about as straight as anybody.

[UWSkier]

Centurion didn't sell because outside of slalom course duty, primarily on private lakes, it's not really a useful boat. This site represents a tiny fraction of DD Inboard owners. I'd venture to say there are more DD inboards on the public lakes in Oneida, Vilas, and Forest counties of northern WI than there are on ski lakes nation-wide. The Malibu LXi/TXis, MC 197s and 205s, and SN 206s reign supreme. The only Centurion I can even think of around us is from the late 80s.

[escmanaze]

@UWSkier Is this primarily an open bow issue? Or do you see other reasons that you say "it's not really a useful boat" on anything but private lakes?

[thager]

I don;t think I have ever seen a CP in Minnesota. No dealers.

[oldjeep]

There are a few centurian dealers in mn. They are at the boat show every yeat. You sure see enough of their wake boats on the lake.

[thager]

Non I have visited ever had a CP to even show. Never skied any in a tournament up here either.

[Chef23]

@escmanaze for me the Centurion issue is an open bow issue. I wouldn’t buy a closed bow because we use the boat to hang out in on the lake in addition to using it as a slalom/trick tug.

 

I have driven a Centurion in a tournament and didn’t have any issues with it. It wasn’t as easy to keep straight as a 200 but it was certainly easier than the 1976 Nautique I learned to drive the course in.

 

Centurion has been making inboards for years and I would certainly consider one if the layout and price was right. It appears they have shelved their open bow ski boat plans however which is too bad for the market.

[oldjeep]

@thager never seen a naurique dd at the show either.

[jhughes]

I own a 2000 SN and a 2016 200 H5 DI and I can tell you that between the two boats the 200 is a million times better, in all aspects. So certainly Nautique/CC has not been sitting around on their hands and just charging more. Happy to pay more when the difference is that profound.

[Horton]

Let me change the conversation a little bit. I was talking to someone associated with MasterCraft the other day and we were discussing things you could do to lower the price of the boat.

 

You could save money going from a touch screen display to an old style zero off display, you could remove seat heaters, heaters, carpet, ballast tank, open bow decklid, stereo and speakers, upholstery in the open bow and a few other things. These changes could lower the price quite a bit and I bet if MasterCraft made some of these and put them in dealerships they would never sell.

[escmanaze]

@Chef23 that is my thought as well, but I was wondering if other people have other reasons to feel that way. When I first saw the CP and what it was I thought "perfect!!! make it open bow and slap a tower on it and there is a boat for me!!!!!" And then lo and behold I couldn't have either from the factory and so it became kind of a dead issue because I, just like you it sounds, don't use the boat exclusively to tractor down a private lake and then back into the boathouse. It seems silly to scrap the whole boat plans when maybe a change as small as "offer it in open bow" and/or "make it available with a tower" maybe maybe could have saved the project. Oh well.

[escmanaze]

@jhughes I won't doubt that you do honestly feel that way, but for every guy like you out there, there is another guy like me who sucks at skiing, so I'm still long line and not maximum speed and I've skied the 200 and the wake, in my opinion, is worse than my TSC1. Also my wife doesn't complain about keeping it straight in the course (again because I'm not a very good skier and I'm sure I'm not pulling all that hard on her) so any better tracking the 200 has is something I wouldn't care about. Many of us just don't see the value in whatever it is that the 200 offers that the 196 doesn't offer that you are saying makes it a million times better.

[escmanaze]

Are people really addicted to these touch screens? My opinion is ignorant as I haven't used one yet, but my initial thought is that that is one item that I REALLY wouldn't want to pay more for. Maybe if I used one one time though, that would change. Those of you who have used touchscreens - would you, could you go back? Or are you completely sold on them now?

[ntx]

@escmanaze when they start to malfunction in a few years, and they are out of warranty. ..... we will see how much people are attached to them. We had a 200 with the zero off round display. We had to replace it. Also had to replace a 200 with the linc system that malfunctioned. Another post here has a boat down with a zero off issue. Wait, the time will come soon with a bunch of high dollar boats needing 3500 displays replaced to use speed control. And you all thought hand driving was a lost art.

[6balls]

@horton maybe a build to order on the more "stripper" Mastercraft. Don't build 'em without a buyer but make sure it is known on the website how much the boat may be discounted w/out certain items.

If enough savings I'd go old style ZO, no seat heater or ballast no carpet, no bow deck lid (but I want upholstery). I want a stereo, heater, ski racks and back seat.

Be curious to know what that cuts off price...tho I'd prefer s'one else order it, of course...and I'll pick it up from them after a number of years.

 

I think most people, though, option em out especially if making the justification on payments given it probably doesn't alter the payment significantly

[ALPJr]

@Horton yes not a showroom boat. How about tourney/promo, clubs, ski school, and weekend slalom freaks. I imagine that the reduced weight wouldn't hurt either.

[RAWSki]

@6balls nice idea .might have worked a decade or two ago. Why "De-content" a boat when a manufacturer makes money on every feature they add and they have buyers willing to pay? The market decides the prices and as long as there are enough new buyers paying the prices (and the makers don't flood the market) it's easier to produce the loaded boats.

[Chef23]

If I was specing a new boat and it was a MC I would be good with old school display, no decklid, upholstered seats, heated seats(I find them better than the heater).

 

There options I could go either way on including back seats, racks and a stereo. I could live without the heated seats also.

 

I do like to know the water temp although not a show stopper.

 

I do agree that stripped down boats probably don’t sell at the dealer. I also think that if a dealer does a special order and doesn’t have to front the money or carry the risk then their margin should be less. I don’t know if that takes a build spot for a much higher margin boat though. If they have to take a build spot for a boat they could get more margin on that does change the equation.

 

I wouldn’t have an issue ordering a boat that might have reduced resale value because if I buy another boat I will hold it for 15 years. That obviously kills resale.

[Horton]

Well, you guys can order a new ProStar almost anyway you want. Funny thing is a promo boat logically equipped with 200 hrs will likely still sell for less.

[escmanaze]

What's being mentioned here might be part of the equation driving the prices up. It seems that an abnormally huge number of boats are ordered as promos with no particular buyer already lined up. I think the promo guys load them up because they are scared of missing that one feature that the potential buyer might insist on. For example, there's a thread going on right now called "why are most the promos open bow?" The only real answer being given is "just in case the prospective buyer insists on it.

 

Maybe we would see a lot more boats have a lot fewer features and accessories added on if they were actually being custom ordered by the guy who plans to own it for several years and he could see the large amounts he's paying for the touchscreen, heaters, carpet, and decklid?

 

In our new world of every stinking startup company out there making 1,000 people pre-order your cool new thing (see the drone market for a great example) and then you can wait a year and a half for the company to get on their feet and actually produce your thing, maybe the ski boat market would be well served to head this direction to some extent. Very few of us buy a ski boat without plotting and planning for at least 2 years right? Most of us wouldn't mind waiting 6 months or so for the next production run in order to save ourselves thousands and have the boat configured exactly as we want?

[DynaSkiPete]

It does cost more to add some options. A closed bow and an open bow cost about the same to build in the end but open bows are easier to get more money for. A larger boat really does not cost much more to make but it brings a much higher price. The difference between the cost of smaller vs bigger boats is only the material costs and some labor. The running gear for both inboard boats (motor, steering, gas tank, pylon, cleats, decals, etc.) all costs the same. With outboards the biggest difference between our 17.6 & 20 are size of the motor wanted for performance and brakes needed on the 20' trailer. 150 vs 200 or larger. Bigger can bring a bigger profit. It really is this simple.

[jhughes]

I feel like there is a large-ish camp of enthusiast rippers out there who would love to own a new boat but scoff at the new prices and stop there. Instead of figuring out what it would take to get that newer boat and what the options REALLY are, they'd rather complain about it being so expensive. Generally it's a belief system, ego, or pre-conceived notion holding them back from figuring it out, such as:

 

1. No way I'd take on debt for toys, that's stupid/I'm better than that/etc.

2. Who could ever afford that?

3. There's nothing wrong with my boat, it does everything I need/when will hand driving come back/when will Perfect Pass come back/long live carburetors & points

4. You'd have to be crazy to buy that. Just flat out crazy.

5. I'd by XYZ before I'd spend that much on a toy

 

etc., etc., yadda, yadda. Guess what folks: You only live once and tomorrow sure as heck ain't promised. A newer boat is something you can enjoy now, while you're younger and have the time to really make it worthwhile. You're only this age once, your kids are only kids once. Bottom line is that if it's important enough to you and/or your family, you'll re-prioritize and do your research to see what's really possible vs. complaining on the sidelines.

 

Call up a few promo owners and call up 3 banks and see what's really possible. Get out there and dig in. You might be surprised just how attainable that new boat is.

[UWSkier]

@horton it'd be interesting to see/hear how many non "Malibu Open" edition TXis Malibu sells. You sortof described that with your post. TXi with old school ZO display, analog-digital gauges, a key, no ski racks, bare walls, etc. They're definitely out there.

 

like http://www.ski-it-again.com/photos/sia43263img0.jpg

 

You can get that closed bow and without the snap-in carpeting to save some $.

[thager]

@oldjeep I am over them too. Especially after what they did to dealers like Son. Marine Minimum is worthless!

[DynaSkiPete]

People should spend what they are comfortable spending and owing. It seems like only a few people really need the latest and greatest best ever tournament wake.

[Horton]

@escmanaze you have it exactly backwards at least in the case of MasterCraft on the West Coast. All the current NorCal MasterCrafts are very lightly optioned to ensure they're easy to resell but what I've been told is every time they sell one they are asked add back seats & stereos and other bits and pieces. If you're looking for a beautiful 200-hour promo ProStar I can find you one for about $60,000 +/- (ish). That's still a lot of money but at that price you surely don't have to worry about depreciation for a few years if you're interested in reselling it. And to get something less means getting a lot less.

 

On the other hand you can go get a 2000 hour boat from any of the big three for cheap that still has all the options that you may want. My point is if you buy a brand-new you may pay a lot, if you're looking for a deal buy a promo or figure out how much money you have and you can find a boat with a lot of hours that'll fit the bill. There is a new or used boat from The Big Three manufactures to fit every budget.

[6balls]

@jhughes disagree to some extent. Agree on living for today, agree with enjoying with our kids and this only happens once. 9/10ths of the features/space/performance may be had with a much cheaper used boat which is a much wiser financial decision. Have your cake and eat it, too.

 

What significant additional enjoyment will a family have by dropping $60K more on a new Nautique than buying a really well kept used 200?

 

How many more family vacations could you take with that extra $60K? How much more could you put toward your kids college education? How much more of your W2 could you divert toward tax deferred retirement savings?

 

The above simply reflects my philosophy...I don't mean to apply it to everyone. With that...the prices of new boats (or cars, or other rapidly depreciating assets) really don't apply to me. I love fun and particularly horsepower/speed, but I'm allergic to interest and depreciation (and taxes...but I'm stuck with taxes).

 

[escmanaze]

@Horton Thanks for the info, that's interesting to hear. Here is the local Prostar that I drool over daily.

 

https://classifieds.ksl.com/listing/52455787

 

Slap a tower on that thing and I have the boat of my dreams for many years to come. And we are probably right around where you are talking about - $60k for a 3 year old lightly used terrific ski boat. Now if I could just get my sales numbers up a little bit, maybe that dream becomes reality...

 

But until then, just like you mention, I'll be on my 97 SNOB with 1,000 hours that I also love to death and is still a really good boat for my family and we didn't even get very deep into the 5th digit in order to be able to pick it up, so yup, just like you say, there is one out there for everybody. Those of us on 20 year old boats just wish we could be on something a little newer. :) :) ;)