How would you score this?

[Scaramanga]

 

[Roger]

The skier is inside the turn ball, so if that's #2, then 1, #4 then 3, #6 then 5.

[mikegile]

Agree with @Roger unless that is one of my pick's for the fantasy league.............

[skidawg]

That was taken from the finals at Moomba, 2@41 for N8..... looks like a 3rd place finish to me, congrats Joel Howley

[Horton]

I heard this rumor yesterday. You can not see it in the Ustream video feed. Or at least I couldn't tell when I reviewed the replay.

 

Has to be extremely frustrating for the other competitors but unfortunately, this kind of thing is not unheard of.

 

Sort of reminds me of the @bishop8950 @matthewbrown fiasco from Cal Pro-Am a couple years ago. I'm pretty sure Bishop still owes Matt some money

[Than_Bogan]

That does look a lot like a miss, but I'd still want to double-check the next couple of frames, because the front of the ski is allowed to ride over it and theoretically he might still have the outbound velocity where his foot could end up outside the ball. I'm not saying it's likely, but to make a final judgement I'd want to see what happened next.

[MISkier]

@Than_Bogan, he cannot significantly displace the buoy. So, if the front of the ski is riding over the buoy, it had better be grazing it.

[DefectiveDave]

Could it be a video compression artifact? Unless it's a keyframe I would be skeptical that the image is an accurate representation of the relative ski and buoy positions.

[Horton]

If you look at the picture closely it almost looks like there is a buoy on both side of the ski. If he really didn't go around the ball that is crap but if he did go around the ball and we all say he didn't that is also crap.

[MISkier]

@Horton, the buoy even looks like it’s on his right shin, too.

[matthewbrown]

Was that picture taken with a 1977 Polaroid? I’ve seen better UFO/Bigfoot pictures. If it is what it is, I’d have a hard time believing the skier didn’t know but, perhaps it’s an optical illusion due to 1977 Ozzy technology.

[75Tique]

I went back and replayed a number of times, trying to capture at the exact right moment. This is as close as I got. Looks pretty good to me. Are we absolutely sure the shot above is the 10.25 pass? Hard to believe he could go from that to what is seen in my capture.

 

[E_T]

The first picture is bad. There is a ball on both sides of the ski and his feet are not on the same plane as the tip

[75Tique]

Well now I am second guessing myself. This is like one frame before my picture above, and it looks kind of like the OP's picture. Yet an incredibly small fraction of a second later, it looks like my picture above. In the instant I went from one capture to the next, its looked like the front of the ski hopped over the ball.

 

 

A review of the rule and my 2 pictures looks like it pretty much clinches it. Hmmmm. Too bad.

 

 

[Stevie Boy]

I am no Camera expert, but I do know that to take action shots you have to have a good camera and you have to have the thing setup properly for that purpose, sry but none of those images look like they are taken on a camera that has been setup for that purpose, in a matter of fact I would go as far to say that none of those images are even in focus, I am talking cameras that start at $1000 not a $100 basement camera.

[Horton]

This is one of those times when everyone should look for themselves.

 

Here is the link to the video.

https://livestream.com/MOOMBAMASTERS2019/events/8588912/videos/188532761

 

Jump forward to about 3:49:00 to watch Smith's at 39 & 41.

[Roger]

Someone needs to explain to me how he (or anyone) gets the ski outside the buoy at 41 off with as little lean angle as he seems to have...

[Roger]

This is how far he's usually leaned over to (barely) get the ski outside the buoy.

 

[matthewbrown]

@Roger he has a massive lean toward the wakes, so he’s able to stay completely on top of the ski and utilize the entire stick. Everyone else is leaning heavy on the boat and on the tail of the ski.

[Horton]

@Stevie Boy you realise these are all video screenshots? That's not to say your point is incorrect that the images look like crap.

[75Tique]

He may have been doomed from the start on this one. Here he is coming off #1, not typical form for him. He just may have never fully recovered.

 

[Stevie Boy]

@Horton still need a good camera to shoot good action video, moving on, I score it two bearing in mind there is a boat judge looking from a different angle who called it two also, the score came back fairly quickly so I guess everybody was happy with a score of two.

[lazzn]

The fact that you can see it in certain versions of the webcast but not others suggests that what is actually being seen is a frame interpolation that contains information from both the frame before where the ball in front of the ski, then when it is behind it. This could be due to the stream stepping down frame rates to cope with crappy internet. Any grade of camera's video can suffer from this too. The proof would really come from a camera that was on site and has preserved its original frame rate

[eleeski]

Whatever the official score is stands!

 

Judging is never perfect. It is the best that can be done in real time with the views and judges available. Hopefully the error scatter is random and not affected by bias (either way) and all skiers would get the same evaluations of a similar situation.

 

This discussion needs to stay as entertainment, not condemnation of the judges or skiers. So in the spirit of entertainment, @Mike Gile got it right, Fantasy scores dictate the outcome!

 

Eric

[Wish]

The pic at the top...that ball looks almost 100% out of the water. That to me seems more likely to be what @lazzn suggests vs the buoys being that high.

[Stevie Boy]

@eleeski, I am with you let the officials do there job, thats why we have them.

[Horton]

The final score is what it is. But situations like this make for pretty good educational conversations about judging. I believe there was video in the boat for the finals but I'm under the impression* that it was news video and may not have been available to the judges. So if this call was as close as we think it was did they go to video review? What was the quality of the video review?

 

* speculation

[Not_The_Pug]

@eleeski and @Stevie Boy but is is way more fun to arm chair judge on the internet when you can analyze a screen shot for hours. I have Judged a few pro events from both the boat and shore. It is very difficult because everything happens so fast and you have to make a call to keep the show going. I'm sure the judges don't have the best angles all the time, especially in a public setting site. How many people complained about the delay's on gate calls taking too long at the Masters?

 

Now back to how my Fantasy team tanked on the last two days.

[bishop8950]

The only views that are relevant are those available to the officials during the event.

[bishop8950]

In said CA ProAm vs Matt the light was terrible for the skiers and judges. The call on the water was 4.5 and the video review was inconclusive, so my score was 4.5. I knew I hit it, could not see it, did not know if I got around it and would not have protested had they scored me 4. Horton later shares an irrelevant pic from the bushes that if it were the basis for the officials, my score would have been 4. To this day I hope Matt trusts me that I believed I could have gotten it and left it to the judges.

 

As a skier, we often have to leave it to the judges. As skiers, fans and officials we all want to trust that the officials are qualified and are doing the best job they can. I know this was the case at the ProAm and would expect the same for world class event like Moomba. If the call on the water was 2, and the video available to the officials was inconclusive then the 2 stands.

 

Many folks in this thread have sat in those hot seats and know what’s it’s like to make those calls. It’s a lot easier from the bushes with different angles and after the fact from keyboards!

[jbwann]

The 1st pic in the thread is photoshopped....ok maybe not....but it's odd after watching the video.

 

[Than_Bogan]

Yeah there's definitely something wrong with that first "frame." It could just be a compression artifact or it could be intentionally modified, but it's clearly not the right information on which to decide if Nate's score was correct.

[Andre]

Joined in 2008 and first post today.

Seems suspicious.

We need James Bond opinion on Scaramanga post...! :)

[klindy]

If it was that controversial someone could have posted the $250 to challenge the call. A new pair of judges look again and can reverse a call. Likewise, if it was called a miss anyone (probably Nate) could have challenged the call too.

 

Point is mistakes do happen but the goal is to be fair to every competitor and the rules (many obviously complicated) are setup to do whatever is feasible to keep it fair. There’s several step of “appeal” if someone really thinks their getting a bad call.

[Horton]

I have been emailed and messaged a lot of images and video today including the below.

 

 

[Horton]

@bishop8950

Are Oleanders technically ”bushes”?

[Horton]

@klindy I wouldn't bet my ski collection on it but I have been told that Moomba does not honor the normal video review process.

 

I would speculate that if that is true that is to keep the show moving and to not confuse the crowd about who's winning. Much like how NASCAR will no longer DQ a car after the race for cheating.

 

 

[Not_The_Pug]

@horton how did you get a picture of @dirt trying to sneak in and steal one of your skis? :smiley:

[Horton]

@Krlee I was hiding in the bushes

[oldjeep]

Solution seems obvious. Need to go to a downhill style gate. Might need some padding, but there won't be any question about which side you are on ?

[Rob]

definitely agree with it possibly being a compression artifact but it may also be a result of the original video being shot interlaced and the final frame we're seeing here being "put together" to give the appearance of the buoy being on both sides of the ski.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced_video

[theboardingschool]

If you watch the video and pause it in different spots, it's pretty clear he doesn't get around it.

[Chef23]

If they don’t run any video review it is a tough call at 41 and full speed.

[coach3]

1. simple

 

[ALPJr]

This thread reminds me a little of officiating some AAU basketball games. The gym is filled with enthusiasts - athletes, coaches, parents, etc. Sometimes enthusiasts forget what their roll is, get to excited, allow their enthusiasm to overshadow sportsmanship, game IQ, good judgement and the rules. ...edit... my point is that officials on the court have to make bang bang split second decisions, such as the block/charge call. Coaches, athletes and especially disgruntled fans may disagree. Post game analysis is great but in most cases doesn’t change the outcome of the game. Best to use it as a learning tool for enthusiasts and officials.

[aupatking]

I can only say I score @jbwann profile picture a 10. By far, the best on BOS. That’s the only picture I’ve reviewed this whole discussion

[ShaunT]

Frame hasnt been modified. I can replicate if fine and I do this for a living and it looks like artifacating.

 

I think the reality is its: artifacating from the crapping camera + low res stream to 720p + compression + highly saturated orange ball being passes by a fast black object with virtually on information to work with

= it simply cant keep up and those pixels showing the ball are munted.

 

If I'm wrong......whatever.

 

I will say this as an interesting observation for the conspiracy theorists: In Nates pre-turn as hes approaching he typically does a fairly early headturn across course basically at the very initiation of the turn sometimes earlier. He does this pretty late on 1 ball.

As he approaches 2 ball he seems to be looking down and to his left which does look is odd when you pause it. You could imply he skiied over it.

But again I think its all just due to the speed.

 

Guess you should just ask the boat judge.

 

 

[Horton]

Nate tried to get around it and the judges tried to call it right.

 

The below images are plenty hi res. I would hope the correct score is not longer a debate. The interesting question is what is wrong with the process?

 

 

 

 

[gregy]

Tournaments take long enough as is without video review for every pass. Is there a protest process at Moomba similar to what happened at the Masters?

[Horton]

@gregy the scores are final. Let's say everyone did their best but it was still wrong. This sort of thing happens more then we would all like at big events. Instead of pointing fingers how do we solve it?