Fred Winter runs 1.5 @ 43 off while competing in the Bordeaux slalom cup!

[Luzz]

@ALPJr cheers, loved to be back in tournament mode. Great event, Nico is a truly passionate skier and organizer, and it shows in the overall picture (money, great skiers, tight competition, pristine site) and, primarily, in the small things that make an event unique.

[Phil]

Would be interesting to know who drove which round for the posted scores, i am a Senior Judge and have been in the boat with all these drivers and had to reprimand one of them many times in a L & R event about the boat path

[Jetsetr]

And.....it continues....☹️☹️☹️

[paul413ski]

@phil what happens in judge world should stay in judge world ??

[BraceMaker]

@paul413ski disagree! Do they pan away for play review in football? Is it not drama when you watch video review while the ref discuss a play?

 

If a driver gets reprimanded that should be part of the discussion.

[Horton]

I have ZERO issue with the scores in Spain this weekend and that is a good thing. The bad news is I still believe that there are issues at other sites. More than ½ off all Elite Pro Men scores are in the US but the vast majority of the big scores are in France and Spain.

 

The graph below is created from data with the following criteria.

• Scores on world standings list. The exact filter at http://www.iwsftournament.com/homologation/idopenslalom0419.php is not public but appears to be a rolling 12 month data sample. The individual data points are found by clicking on each skiers name on this page.

• Scores are from Men’s skiers listed #2 through # 11. Smith is excluded because he does not have any European scores in the sample.

• Scores were taken from 61 events

• There are a total of 481 scores from those events

• A score of 4 or more at 41 was achieved 54 times

• A score of 6 or more at 41 was achieved 11 times

• The graph shows the Percentage of times a big score was achieved per country

 

 

 

Note: The graph shows Spain BigDawg ProAM scores from a year ago. When those scores fall off and are replaced with this years scores Spain will no longer be conspicuous.

 

 

[Zman]

Interesting.

"In God we trust, @Horton bring data".

And, he did.

[Horton]

If anyone wants to check my work

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sNOVD9hOQb6BjFPrl5Yiece1r2l_cQumWTDScrVbQLw/edit?usp=sharing

[Luzz]

I take pride of that middle standing in Italy. We have great sites, solid judges and drivers, and good skiers.

[Horton]

@Luzz the one downside to the stand I'm taking is that honest guys like you included in the conversation.

[DavidP]

Are the boats used at the sites in question gasoline or propane?

[Horton]

@DavidP Gas as far as I know but that is an interesting question

[Stevie Boy]

Obviously the boats have the capacity to run on LPG or Petrol for Pro Events, I believe organisers run the boats on Petrol.

@Horton you can throw as many figures and statistics out there as much as you like, through out history in real life statistics have been proven wrong and many people paid the price, statistics are just numbers they mean nothing , there is nothing in there to allow for different water conditions, wind, temperature etc.

Sport is unpredictable, top sports people have good days and bad days, could you statiscally predict how well a skier is going to perform, based on what he/she had to eat the night before.

On top of that statistics can be manipulated, by adding or excluding variables.

[theboardingschool]

Man, I need to get my stuff together. I don't even have my 2018 taxes done yet, and @horton has a analytical masterpiece of slalom scores around the world.

[ALPJr]

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts" John Wooden

[Horton]

@Stevie Boy I'm the first one to admit there is no proof of anything. My question for you is - at what threshold would you agree that there should be some additional scrutiny or at least maybe a some head-scratching?

[Stevie Boy]

@Horton there is no point in having a organisation that is responsible for managing

and overseeing the sport, if we do not let them do their Job, if you have no faith in them and feel things are not being managed correctly, then they are the people that should be questioned, get your data and various other material together and question them.

If they are doing their job correctly then there is nothing to question, as Phill said, if he is in the boat and a driver is not doing his Job correctly he will use his Authority and warn or remove the Driver, there must be times when the driver is told he is a bit bias to the left or right, the boat judge has a good view of what is going on.

We all have opinions but the Governing Body is the instrument that we all have to abide by, it's for them to say if there was a problem or not.

 

[Keith_Menard]

@Stevie Boy I have been following this conversation from the sidelines. This comment isn't specific to USA Waterski...but usually organizations are more likely to look at something due to outside pressure, than from internal questions.

[Horton]

I give myself a rolling panda for trying to debate with @Stevie Boy

 

 

[gavski]

What perplexes me the most is the ‘source’ that brought this to Hortons attention...of all the people in the ‘elite’ level, who has the most to gain from these scores...why would they bring this to his attention??

 

It should be about collective performance. If all ski well, then great!!!, If all ski crap, then so what..no one was singled out..

 

What I don’t understand is what any ‘elite’ skier has to gain from whining to Horton about great scores that make us ALL excited about this sport....

 

Breaking world records etc is one thing.....but creating huge amounts of excitement in this dwindling sport is another...Park the egos...elite comps should ALL be head to heads..take a leaf out of alpine sports...we are 20yrs behind....and we are waaaaaay cooler....wtf??

[Horton]

@gavski

 

I 100% disagree and also 100% agree. We all compete in a world of ranking lists. For the pros it impacts their marketability and income. Things like being top 10 in the world or #1 in the world are lifetime goals.

 

On the other hand, perhaps the sport would be better off if we lived on a pure skier against skier world.

 

It does not take a rocket surgeon to look at my above graph and see something that at very least needs an explanation. More than 1/2 of the Class L or R scores are in the US but the odds of a skier getting to 4 at 41 are far better in other places. How the F can that be right?

[Horton]

@gavski to answer your first Question. Some of the skiers care about standards and believe in the rule book. They want their scores and standings to mean something. It is called integrity.

[Horton]

like it never happened

[JAS]

Maybe a power rating of some sort would be idea to consider. In qualifying tournaments power rating is calculated by comparing skier score with average of field.

Calculate by :: taking skier score and subtracting (total balls scored in division divided by # of Skiers) = power rating.

[NikolG]

Was this one of the tournaments that the scores were pulled after review of end course video?

[Horton]

yep

[aupatking]

I know this has been hauled out of the catacombs as an example thread @Horton, to prove your point, and for very good reason. If you guys don’t understand that, for the last several years, if Nate didn’t exist, the world #1-#3 could be dictated by who goes and skis in France. That is why the scores matter.

If you don’t understand why Horton says this matters, we’re not talking about who wins the world championships. We are talking about the world elite ranking list. As Horton has said, these guys marketability is scored pretty heavily by sponsors based on the rankings. So, it is directly effecting them, many of them negatively. It also forces these guys to go ski these places because if they don’t, everyone who does is going to leapFROG them on the ranking based on BS scores. They are held hostage.

I feel even worse now for the guys that wasted a ton of cash to ski these tournaments

[eleeski]

I'm watching a stupid football game that I really could care less about. Every player there is making more than all waterskers combined. If you want to make money as a professional athlete, don't waterski. Especially if people with "integrity" requirements cloud the performances achieved.

 

FWIW I didn't bet on the football game but legally I could have. Which is more ethical, imperfect driving or bookies? Are we way too "righteous" to have fun for widespread acceptance of our sport.

 

Lighten up!

 

Eric

[Horton]

@eleeski sometimes I'm tempted to get my trick judges rating just so I can follow you around and meticulously judge you at every tournament.

[eleeski]

That is the reason tricks are not dominant.

[Freddie Winter]

Seeing as my name is in the title of this thread I feel I may be forgiven for passing comment on its content.

Clearly the score which lead to this thread being opened back in June has not survived the vetting process of the Europe and Africa Region Tournament Committee and will not go down in history as a legitimate score. My understanding is that the score was taken out because there was no adequate end course video submitted for the round of the event in which I skied these buoys. As a result the Regional TC concluded it had no way of knowing legitimacy and so decided it should not stand.

This was my equal best score of the year and an equal PB. It was also a contributing score that led to my #1 spot on the IWWF World Ranking List which ranks the average of every skiers two best scores. I have been asked in recent days if I am upset about this score being taken out of the books. The simple answer is not particularly for two reasons.

Firstly, and most importantly, as a sportsperson, I am totally uninterested in being credited with any score, accolade, victory, medal, record, prize etc that I do not deserve. The otherwise misguided comment above is correct in that water skiing doesn't really pay, certainly not in the same way as other sports do. With that in mind my belief is that most who take this game seriously are doing it, in large part, because of a great love for the sport. If this is the case, surely we want the sport to be played fairly, with integrity and with a right and just outcome. I am totally happy to submit to the powers that be when it comes to monitoring which scores should and should not enter the scorebooks as they have a greater access to the tools for monitoring these things. (I am, however, not going to get into their choice of World Championship venues ;) )

Secondly, this score contributes to my position on a list that, in my opinion, is of lesser importance than one might imagine a 'World Ranking List' should have due to consistent rumours that all scores are not achieved under the same level of scrutiny as one another. Accordingly, I welcome the recent review of the scores by the E&A Regional TC and by any other such body. The other list, the Elite Ranking which incorporates placements at the biggest events in the sport, is seen as far more important by all who might label themselves a 'Pro' (and by sponsors alike, contrary to what I've seen written previously here). Wins outweigh scores in all but the most extreme instances.

All this is to say that, while it is a shame that scores are being taken out and that it is felt they should have to be reviewed, perhaps we can all agree that this is an opportunity for water skiing as a whole to commit to cultivate and maintain a level playing field upon which some fantastic sporting duels can take place. After all, is that not what sport is about?

[Jaypro]

You deserve a Heady Topper....

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Now you need to add a new icon that goes beyond "Awesome." Like something each of us can only push once every 12 months and thus has real meaning to award.

Anyhow, I'm giving my hypothetical "Post of the Year" badge to @FWinter.

[markn]

One hell of a skier, class act and diplomat for the sport of water skiing.

[aupatking]

Thank you @FWinter. There are only a few guys in the world as qualified to make that statement, and no one more so. Also, thank you for explaining the World Ranking and the Elite Ranking list. I got those 2 mixed up. Maybe someone in another thread can explain the difference, if there isn’t a discussion already out there.

[theboardingschool]

Seems like a good kid.

 

[eleeski]

Having been chief judge at L tournaments, I don't remember a requirement to preserve end course videos (except for records set). AWSA rules require adjustments to ranking lists within 7 days. Something is very wrong with months later retroactively disqualifying performances for not complying with a rule that is not in the books.

 

Integrity is a boat judge or end course judge immediately calling for a reride if the boat path is bad. Integrity is not mounting a social media campaign to apply standards that are not in the rules to disqualify great performances.

 

Nobody wants snaking boat paths or intentionally narrow courses. But tolerances exist for necessary reasons. If we are going to actually run real world tournaments, we must respect the existence of the variability that tolerances and human judgment create. The real world is more messy than a data spreadsheet.

 

@FWinter displayed lots of class and sportsmanship in his response. Thanks for anchoring us.

 

Eric

[Horton]

14.15: End Course Video (2018)

End-course video shall be recorded for the slalom event for all passes 12 11.25m and shorter. A rigidly mounted video camera shall be operated from a point on the centreline on at least one end of the slalom course, adjusted to show all of the boat guides in clear focus, and equipped with optical (not digital) magnification of sufficient power to display the far entrance/exit gate occupying at least 1/6th of the full width of the screen (1/3 width or larger is recommended).

It is recommended that the end course video be monitored from the judges tower and any driving corrections needed communicated to the driver.

A black 5cm (approx.) wide strip up the middle of the windshield will be used to show up on the end course video. If the boat already has a visible centre mark on the windshield this is not necessary. A visible mark would be a centre seam between two halves of the windshield or a centre swing out window that would have vertical seams on either side of centre. The mark, if required would only need to come up approximately half way to the top of the windshield but be clearly visible in the end course video.

The video file tape shall be forwarded to the Confederation Tournament Council for monitoring immediately after the tournament. The Council may cancel results that do not conform to rules 1.11, 14.01, 14.03 and 14.11.

The Chief Judge may assign an end-course judge to monitor the end-course video and award rerides on the following criteria:

If the boat pylon deviates more than 20cm from the centre of the course, the end-course judge shall award an optional reride if the path of deviation was a disadvantage to the skier. If it was to the skier's advantage, a reride is mandatory. If it had no effect, a reride will not be awarded. It shall be considered an advantage if the boat pylon deviates outside the 20cm toward the buoy that the skier is attempting to get around thus making it easier for him to get to the buoy. It shall be considered a disadvantage if the boat pylon deviates outside the 20cm away from the buoy that the skier is attempting to get around thus making it harder for him to get to the buoy. It shall be considered no effect if the deviation happened in a part of the pass where the skier was not in the process of attempting to round a buoy.

A mark or small post on the top of the windshield that is visible in the end-course video camera (both directions) shall be placed 20cm from the centre of the windshield on both sides of the centre to aid in the determination of the 20cm deviation.

The reride will be awarded if the end-course judge and the Chief Judge agree on the determination. The skier's score up to the point of the illegal deviation shall be protected assuming all other rules criteria have been met (time).

 

[Horton]

 

[klindy]

@Horton is correct. Also in the IWWF rule book is a rule that states the videos are the property of IWWF and must be maintained for one year. In the US a select sample is sent in for review with an option for additional video to be requested if needed.

 

I agree with the rest they the comments from @FWinter are top draw class. The ability to review and adjust scores or tournament class is within the purview of the TC committee. My question however is if the opinion is the same about the officials onsite? While tolerances are allowed for tons of variables, actuals are the target and it is the officials job to make sure things are run by the rules.

 

Several of the tournaments listed appear to have has a score or two reduced (perhaps there were other skiers affected?) and still others had the entire tournament capped at some max. It appears they also must use end course video all next year (I assume that means they’ll need to submit all video for review - that may or may not seem heavy handed if it’s really just a pass or two).

 

However the tournaments which were declassified it had all the scores reduced would seem to suggest a systemic problem and not a random “oops”. If there were continuous issues all day or even with a specific driver (not to suggest it’s the drivers responsibility alone to make sure things run to tolerance), my question is why wasn’t it noticed and/or corrected. And since it wasn’t apparently corrected when noticed onsite, is the opinion different of that of the later review and changes?

[BigGerald3]

That Fred Winter is as “Smooth as a well buttered bannister”!!!??

Keep up the great work Mr. Winter!

[Drago]

??

[BigGerald3]

Freddie was doing some commentary with Tony Lightfoot at Worlds? Could be wrong on the tourney, anyway, Lightfoot said someone was skiing “as smooth as a well buttered bannister”. Freddie said, I’m not quite sure what that means, but they’re smooth. They carried on for a bit and it was vintage Freddie and Lightfoot. Our whole family was cracking up! Prolly one of those times where you had to see/hear it in context to get the full comedic value.

[Spineofgoo]

Is that anything like deer guts on a doorknob?

[BigGerald3]

Bingo!