Denali C75 Review

[JAS]

@AdamCord @adamhcaldwell, you guys are class acts. Thanks for taking the risks and contributing your time and efforts. I’m sure you will sell that “Medium”

[ghutch]

@JAS I know they have at least sold another L!

[MISkier]

I think something sort of got glossed over here:

 

@adamhcaldwell is 5’9” and running 41 at 34 mph.....and almost running it at 36 mph.

[bsmith]

@S1Pitts brings up an interesting point about what negative characteristics appear when you ski on a C75 that is too large for you. With conventional skis where size is controlled primarily by length, you can feel a ski too long for you as being unwieldy and difficult to turn. But in the case of the C75, all models are 65" long. So what do you feel wrong about a C75 too large for you at the speed you want to ski at?

 

Since @adamhcaldwell uses a medium at 34 mph and a small at 36 mph, no doubt, he can feel some slight improvement from dropping a ski size on the C75 when he skis at 36 mph. My guess is that the larger surface area at the higher speeds on an over sized C75 causes the ski to bounce a bit more and not settle in optimally as you head into a turn.

 

That's just my guess, but for all of us considering purchasing a C75, it would be interesting to know what the trade offs are on being under and oversized with a C75. If you are undersized on a C75, I assume the negative issue is the same as with all undersized skis in that you would bog too much through turns.

 

 

[AdamCord]

@bsmith because the skis are all the same length, the issues that people have when riding a ski that's too big or too small are different than on other skis.

 

Part of what makes a ski turn well and under control is that it sinks deeper into the water as the speed drops in the preturn. Someone who is riding a c75 that is too big for them will find that the ski doesn't sink enough in the preturn, and the therefore the ski slides too much through the turn. This causes the ski to actually over rotate, while at the same time the line doesn't stay tight. On the other end of the spectrum, a too small ski will sink too much, causing the ski to under rotate and create too much drag.

 

This is actually highly tune-able with the fin, especially fin depth. Anyone who is on the bubble can consult with us and get a recommendation for whether they should size up or down, but we have been able to get "bubble" skiers skiing well on either size pretty easily. Caldwell and I are both able to run up the line on all 3 sizes, it just takes some fin adjustments to make that work.

[ghutch]

@AdamCord I am on a M c75. It is a prototype to the final version. I'm 6'3" 208ish, RFF, 34 mph 28-32 pretty easy with a 35 on a good day. To me the ski does feel draggy in the turn and I want to snap those up. Will have to look at the numbers and get those to you but I am wondering as well how a L would feel and if it would help with this problem.

[Than_Bogan]

208 at 34mph? Gotta be L, right?

[C5Quest]

So at 5’7”, 170ish , 34 MPH skier just getting into -32 off.... thinking medium?

[AdamCord]

@C5Quest Are you more of a power/strength type skier or do you prefer to ski with finesse and less load?

[Than_Bogan]

@AdamCord Indirectly, I think I just figured out that I am a "power/strength type skier" ... except without the power or the strength.

 

Point being: I almost always prefer the smaller ski if I'm on a boundary.

[rico]

I indirectly got reminded that I am more of a power/strength type skier who would prefer to ski with finesse and less load

[C5Quest]

What @rico said. ...so it that a medium or a shmedium?

Typically power through a pass. Finesse and less load are a pipe dream

[Adam Caldwell]

@Rico,

 

Stick to your strengths!

 

The c-75 will let you ski with power, and still find the "finesse". Typically, with a lot of other skis, the more power you put in the more you are punished in terms of speed management at the buoy. You wont have those issues on the c75.

[mbabiash]

@adamhcaldwell

Would you say one fin setting works better for power skiers over finesse skiers.

Longer shallower Vs. deep short.

[Adam Caldwell]

@mbabiash

 

My theory with long/shallow vs short deep is not quite that simple. There are a lot of factors involved. Its one of those things you just have to try out, see what you feel, and analyze the differences/improvements/strengths/weaknesses.

 

I am of the opinion that long shallow settings on C settings are horrible, but decent on A settings. Conversely, deep short settings tend to be worse on A settings and better on B/C settings. This has to do with the fin/ski working in harmony with the power/pull of the boat.

 

A skiers personal philosophy and approach to the slalom course can also play into this. My personal philosophy currently supports something more in the direction of deep/short settings combined with a ZO setup that faster to respond and is not gassing the skier during the swing off the top of the whitewater.

 

I will say there is a sweet spot for long shallow settings in the 35off range, however it seems to be more limited in full range potential. Longer lines it feels much harder to create angle/speed before CL, and for 38off and up, it feels harder to consistently have good timing beyond gate/1&2 ball.

 

Several years ago I ran a lot of long shallow setups on "A" settings that felt great. However, my scores are always way higher and more consistent on B/C settings with deep/short.

 

On the C75 I have only run a hand-full of sets on the long shallow and immediately went back to my deep short.

 

I know @Horton spent some time with long shallow on his, but not 100% sure what his final consensus was.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell long shallow settings on C75? I'm pretty sure that was just @AdamCord pranking me.

[Skierx]

@mbabiash , I am not a world record holder like @adamhcaldwell nor a former national champion like @AdamCord and I did not grow up on a private lake with access to pro skiers and a ski school like @Horton but I do have amazing resources NOW including BOS and team Denali. The better I understand the GUT techniques and am able to apply them the better skier I'm becoming. I went from just being able to run 22 off to running almost all the way through -32 .this has happened in a very short amount of time since I was off most of the summer and only started back in September. I have used long/ shallow for quite a while. And also short /deep by mid September I could run within one bouy with either setting. For me I found long / shallow I had to be more precise if I made a mistake I pretty much was stuck with whatever angle I had whereas with short /deep if I didn't get it quite right I could still read position the ski and get straight angle. Seems more forgiving. by late September I have made huge gains. Video showed and Cord pointed out , I needed to push my ski out in front of me more off the 2nd wake. The connection and swing thread discusses exactly that. I'm getting better at it each time out on the ski now. And at this rate I will most likely gain a whole nother pass and be much closer to where Horton is. The c75 is so good that sometimes you can screw up the pass and still end up with 6 somehow. I also have grown to like the C setting zo. Not saying you always run 6 just that sometimes you make a pass you had no business running and it's due to the performance of that particular ski. So, the c-75 short/deep plus understanding the timing the race or the dance between the skier and the boat is a beautiful thing.

[HSL]

A question for either Adam on the c-75 and yaw rotation.

 

In your design philosophy piece you state:

 

"Most skis are extremely stable in Yaw, but easy to Roll over, forcing the skier to take a narrow path to the buoy. The c75 takes a completely different approach. A ski that is very free to move in Yaw rotation - like the c75 - will change its trajectory earlier coming off the 2nd wake. This helps the skier to sustain a more effortless connection – carrying the skier on a wider arc further up-course of the buoy. From there, as the pre-turn phase progresses, the Yaw rotation disperses energy in the form of spray. This helps the ski decelerate and lose outbound energy as we approach buoy width."

 

You've done a superb job explaining why yaw rotation becomes critical as the rope shortens. And Caldwell's explanation in the thread "connection and swing" describes how to initiate yaw rotation.

 

So.... to complete the story, please explain the unique design features of the c-75 that enable this ski, in particular, to covert skier input into easy yaw rotation coming off centerline (assume the skier has generated ample speed coming into centerline). What is it about the c-75 design that makes it very free to move in Yaw rotation and change its trajectory with greater ease than other skis?

 

I'm not seeking any trade secret information. I'm just trying to understand the specific design elements of the c-75 that relate primarily to enhanced yaw rotation and are unique or very different from the typical high end slalom ski. I want to ensure my input to the ski takes full advantage of these design features. Is there more to it than the simple yet brilliant design of a ski that is shorter in length than others -- requiring less skier input to generate yaw rotation? Any specific details you can provide would be appreciated.

 

 

 

[AdamCord]

@HSL there are a few different aspects to the c75 design that allow it to yaw more easily than other skis. As you mentioned it is shorter, so the moment between your feet and the fin is much shorter. Most people have their front boot at about 28.5" on this ski. We also run the fin much further forward, at 1.0-1.2" DFT. Also we run a shorter fin setting, coupled with the CG fin which has quite a bit less surface area than a standard fin.

 

The biggest contributor though is the lift distribution under the ski. This ski is quite a bit wider under the boots, and also has a very deep tunnel in that part of the ski, putting the lift right under your feet instead of ahead or behind them. That's what gives the ski the ability to slip much less down the lake after apex and drive itself to the wakes while continuing to rotate and build angle. Other skis need to slip a lot more after the buoy, giving you less space before the next buoy.

 

It also has the side effect of forcing the skier to ride it with a more balanced position over their feet, because that is where the lift is coming from. That doesn't mean you have to be a better skier to ride it, it means that it will force you to stand over your feet instead of behind them. One of the first comments that most people make is that they are skiing a lot more stacked over their feet than normal, without having to actively try to do that. It's just the physics of where the lift force is coming from.

 

tldr: SCIENCE!

[VONMAN]

First off, this ski rocks. A little background, I'm a 69 year old, 190-195lb, on a great day 1 or 2 ball @ 38 off, Right foot skier. This isn't my first rodeo with Denali, I had a C-65 back in 2017 and helped Beta test the CG prototype fin in the 2017-18 winter for both 32 and 34mph. Denali ski's are truly innovative in design, performance, and setting up. By setting up, I've found you can tune the ski to do what ever you need it to be for your style. For us mere mortals the setups that are out there can be a little to much. That being said let me tell you my story.

I was on the search for a setup that would give me a 32mph ski that didn't beat me up, give me tight line, great turns, with angle and width. After 2 full pages of different setups and studying the design of the ski itself I was able to achieve my goal. First thing, I'm not a big fan of the S-wing. I'm sure if I was 30 years younger, but I'm not. The ski at all my fin settings would make my offside better than ANY ski in the last 40 years. Getting the onside turn to work took some tuning. To give you a example of my offside turn in time, for the tip of the ski to change direction its .25 of a second. I know this because I shoot video in 30 frames per second and the tip of the ski changes direction in 7 frames, and the ski does it under control and by itself. I blew my mind the first time it did it. I'm a shallow and long fin setup and a front boot forward fan, been that since my Goode 9600 and my last ski a D-3 EVO. My setup is a ski that will be planted under my feet with progressive load to behind the boat to controlled release with symmetrical turns and a tight line at the end of the turn, good stack and a boat waiting for me to do again.

As a retired automotive design engineer I love the concept of one length fits all. And since the cat is out of the bag, adding width in the middle, simple and brilliant. I still had some concerns of getting up out of the water, but haven't missed a start yet! Thank you! Now on to boots. The recommended setting was 28.5", the best I could do was 29.0" with my D-3 Leverage front boot. After looking a where the rocker break on the ski was and because I like a ski setup to be between my feet I moved to 29.25" and the ski woke up. My finale number is 29.50". Lets talk fins and wings. You can make big swings with a CG fin, learned that on my C-65. Wings first, using a large Goode or a D-3 wing at 7.5, and as I got more comfortable settled on 8.0 degrees so far. Fin settings, tried short and deep and long and shallow. What I found the number for distance to tail should fall in a 1.005-1.105" range. Because of long shallow settings I was having some tail blow outs at the finish of the turn.....Until I did a comparison side to side of my C-75 to my EVO!! Sorry in advance. A second rocker break in the ski profile just in front of the fin box tail section. I could still run a long fin I just had to add a little more depth. Bang, the ski came alive the last two times out, its rock solid, game on! I've free skied it 28-41 off at 32.3 mph can't wait to take in in a course.

Final numbers as of 10-31-2019

LENGTH DEPTH TAIL WING FRONT BOOT

7.004" TIPS 2.460" HEAD 1.102" HEAD 8 DEGREES 29.50"

 

Thanks Guys for the great Design. FYI I live in Florida and if you need some testing on a new fin design I'm retired and willing. I ski all winter, I'm from Michigan this heaven for me.

[VONMAN]

Here's a video of my ski setup. 22-38 off free skiing at 32.3mph. (perfect pass star gazer)

[thager]

@VONMAN Like you I am not a big fan of the S-wing. Seemed really draggy. Ended up running mine at 4.5-5 degrees on my C-65. Random thought here, @adamcaldwell @AdamCord but am wondering if anyone has tried an S-wing on one side with a regular wing on the other side? Maybe I will try it in the spring for chuckles and grins. Long winter already!!

[AdamCord]

@thager Yes and it's good

[thager]

Cool! I assume that you have experimented with one S-wing up and one down also? And both turned down?

[VONMAN]

OK, you want something different, experimental, how's this? This is a fin I designed in 2004. I think I posted some pictures of the fins I designed and tested. On the forum back in 2017. The rudder/top loader was my favorite. I made two prototypes, of witch one I gave to a skier to try or lost. Can't remember, but I found the other in my ski junk drawer so being bored and seeing how great the C75 is, why not.

Had a old Goode fin clamp, same hole spacing length as the Denali length wise, but had to split it and grind away some material to fit width wise. Couple of hours latter done. I was lucky enough find some old notes with fin settings from 2004. Just ran the fin a little deeper because that's what I found with the C75.

First time out free skiing with it I was loving it. I was running one degree less wing and the ski felt freer/less drag but still planted to the water. On normal ski's you can feel the rudder kick in. The more you load, the more the tip of the ski will swing more cross course. Not so much with the Denali, a testament to the ski design. (best offside turning ski I have ever tried/owned)

Three times out with this setup and haven't changed a thing. I know I'll get some flak because it looks dangerous. Skiing Dangerous, but so much fun. The rudder moves, no it flexes. The rudder is not mechanical and the Ski flexes to. Isn't Science Fun!

 

[VONMAN]

Here's a video skiing with the rudder fin setup. Nothing different that I have to do, but easier, a little less work going cross course. 32-39.5off at 32.3mph. I think I'm going to have to try some my other fins in the C75 just for grins.

 

https://forum.ballofspray.com/discussion/comment/292533#Comment_292533

 

[Killer]

@VONMAN extremely dangerous I'd say. lots of people have caught the tail of the ski against their body/head in a crash, myself included. That's a bloody dagger, take it off

[Adam Caldwell]

@VONMAN - Ill get one of the prototype fins in the mail to you and see what settings you come up with at 32mph!

[Than_Bogan]

Triangle fin, triangle fin!

 

(I can't stop ... apparently.)

[Jordan]

@VONMAN what boat are you skiing behind?

[AdamCord]

@VONMAN so let me get this straight. You’re a 69 year old who’s out there ripping turns at 39off behind an outboard using a crazy looking skeg fin of your own design?

 

You sir are a badass.

[Wish]

+1 for bad ass. Somebody send that man some Denali swag. ??

[ALPJr]

Awesome skiing @VONMAN

[VONMAN]

@Killer Yes, it's dangerous. My old boss used to have a sign in his office S#it Happens. A man has got to know his limitations.

 

@Jordan A 1992 Ski Centurion Bare Foot Warrior, repowered with a 2015 200hp Mercury OptiMax Pro XS.

 

https://forum.ballofspray.com/discussion/comment/306410#Comment_306410

 

I also ski behind three inboard Malibu Response's in our club on Lake Weir. You can check out some of our video's on U-Tube. My page is Ernie Schlager .

 

@adamhcaldwell Send me a fin to test, can't wait. And if you would like to try any of my wacky fin's to try let me know.

 

To all you skier's out there, since I've retired to Florida, I have found myself doing more free skiing, (back in Michigan I was a course snob) coaching, and setting up skis. I have learned so much free skiing by shorting up the rope. All bad habits are amplified. It will teach you to be one with the boat, where you can load and be free of the boat and have a tight line when you stacked without taking hits. And no I can't run 38off in the course, but at 69 I ski as good as when I was at 58, pretty much pain free unless I do something stupid. Behind my boat I've been to 41off. (@ 42off my wake becomes a ankle buster)

Just go out and give it a go. Most skier's I talk with have never thought or tried it. Start a set at 15 or 22off, run 6 or 9 turns, drop and shorten and keep going up the line you will learn so much. Trust me it's loads of fun.

[Than_Bogan]

@Killer My policy is that if somebody is still skiing hard at nearly 70, I bow to their ability to determine what is safe enough.

[KRoundy]

That's what I want to do when I am 69. Well done, sir!

[Mortyski]

@VONMAN I agree you are a badass! I am proud of the recognition the Denali "Adams" and others have given you. I'm 64 and those of us in the Senior divisions are generally smart enough to let go when things go really bad. I'm an engineer and love your new fin addition and remain fascinated with what Denali team is doing with their skis. Keep up the skiing! We have a saying something like: You are never too old to ski but if you quit skiing you get old...I'm too old to remember the exact phase....my kids gave me a T shirt with it once.

 

all the best,

 

Murray

[customski]

Skied with 3 senior skiers today, 69, 72 and 82 years young. As keen as anyone at the lake..

[VONMAN]

@Mortyski Thanks, I'll have to make a T-shirt with that phase for my young padawan I'm coaching now. He's 70, just started skiing about a year and a half ago. He's been bit hard by the ski bug, looking at a new boat and lake front house. So you're never to old.

[paul413ski]

@VONMAN legend

[ghutch]

Just got my L c-75 the other day. Set it up and ready to ride! Time for a FL trip. To quote the great Hamilton Wallace "I hate winter!"

[rico]

I can confirm the C-75 still works in the winter :smiley:

[Skierx]

@rico Me too ! This thing they call c-75 is such a joy to ski on. I can't wait for Saturday!

[Than_Bogan]

@rico Can you be more specific? It's about 15 degrees right now where I am, and that ain't Celsius, so it would be fun to read about your (or anyone's!) success!

[Jaypro]

I can confirm the C-75 would not work in Vermont right now, even with @adamhcaldwell . Water is a bit firm and is 9 degrees.

[Skierx]

May have to get Marcus Brown to give it a try in deep snow behind his snowmobile. I bet it would carve at least as good as that other ski he was on.

[Skierx]

Ok , set a new PB in September water temp 80° . Went out today water temp 54° only two boys shy of my PB, So YES the c-75 still works in the winter. Southern California. Merry Christmas!

[jayski]

Matte or Glossy...which one is newer? Is there a difference in construction besides graphics? @AdamCord @adamhcaldwell

 

 

[AdamCord]

@jayski gloss is newer but no difference other than the graphic sheet. One of the curses of building small quantities of anything is that you are at the mercy of what materials are available. In this case we can no longer get the material for the ski on the right in small quantities.

[jayski]

Thanks @AdamCord appreciate the reply

 

I do like the Matte graphics, different than what's out there