Videos of -38 vs -15

[Orlando76]

Can somebody point me in the direction of a video of a rather good skier who consistently runs -38 @ 34mph and then the same person on the very next pass run -15 @ 28mph? There’s a few things I want to look for. Maybe a challenge for somebody skiing this morning? Thanks.

[gregy]

Look for seth stisher videos. He has some 15off videos on Youtube.

[jhughes]

Nate Smith 28mph 15 off:

 

 

Dane Mechler, 36mph 15 off

 

 

Seth Stisher 32mph 15 off

 

 

MB from way back, 22@30mph

 

 

There's a couple. Bunch more on my YT channel. It's funny how much more space they create than an actual 15 off skier.

 

[Stevie Boy]

Yep ! I can see a whole bunch of people skiing 38off @34mph queing up, to wreck their timing up and go out at 15off @28mph, remembering most of these people are going off the dock 34mph@ 28 - 32off.

I think you will find, if you try to ski 15off@28mph like, 38off@34mph it is just not going to work, it,s a different world and a different technique, also the ski feels and works differently.

Yes ! a very acomplished skier would be able to do it, but I doubt if a intermediate skier would be able to emulate it.

At 15off@28mph apart from not pulling out too early and dropping off the back of the boat before the move into the gate, probably better off sticking with the basics, that should get you through fairly easily.

[76SS]

It's really interesting watching Nate's style at that speed. He doesn't really load the line until he has almost reached the white-wash.

[Terry Winter]

@Orlando76 Here’s one from above...

The proper technique is the same throughout all of the passes regardless of boat speed or line length. Things just get more critical with a faster boat and shorter line. I have several videos on my site with examples of slower speeds and full line.

https://www.trainwithterrywinter.com/

 

[Chef23]

One thing to be aware of when watching these guys ski slow speed is that they create more angle and speed than most people trying to run 30 & 32 mph for the first time. It is good to watch because their fundamentals are awesome but beginning skiers are going to have to work white water to white water.

 

The point on Nate not really loading until the white water is excellent because it shows how he waits for the ski to finish the turn before he loads and goes. I see too many early stage skiers trying to get back to the handle fast and not letting the ski finish and if you do that you never get enough angle.

[condorpilot]

@Chef23 , Mark can you please clarify for me (still skiing at 15 off after many years) ,what 'angle ' are you referring to when you say " you never get enough angle "?

Are you referring to the roll angle of the ski in relation to the surface of the water ie ( body lean angle)

or yaw angle in relation to the skis path from buoy to buoy ie( direction of travel angle )?

[jercrane]

@twhisper wow that overhead video is incredibly informative. The transition from edge to edge beginning at the second wake is so clear. The line load so consistent throughout every portion of the turn. Holy smokes I want to be able to do that.

[Chef23]

@condorpilot I am talking about how far across course the ski is pointing at the finish of the turn. The high end skiers let the turn finish and the ski pointing across course before the load. In addition they have good body position that create speed. Most 15 off skiers don’t do that or they wouldn’t be 15 off skiers.

[andjules]

Taking @Chef23's comments a little further: when you watch these pros ski -15 @ 28-32mph, you'll notice they often come off their lean around the middle of the wakes, or perhaps just a touch later (@ the 2nd wake).

When someone is learning/struggling with -15 @ 28-32mph, they're likely going to require a somewhat longer pull (past the 2nd wake), and — arguably — that's ok for them at that point in their development; it is an appropriate strategy to deal with their lesser ability to hold angle and generate speed. As they get better, they'll transition earlier.

[andjules]

@Orlando76 I think most of us (except maybe @Stevie Boy) are overlooking the nuance you're trying to get at about back-to-back passes of extremely-different intensity. That would be interesting to watch, and I think — to a limited extent — there is an intensity level that is appropriate to each pass.

My warm-up pass is -22 @ 34mph. When I haven't skied in 2 weeks, I occasionally screw it up by skiing it as if it's -32; more often I screw it up (like I did on my last set) by skiing it as if was -15@32mph (ie. if you get the intensity wrong, it's better to ski too intensely vs too lazily)

[Horton]

the difference between any two passes is not really about intensity. it is about margin of error. to run a shorter line length or a faster boat speed the skier simply musty more technical.

 

intensity is an issue but as the line gets shorter or the boat gets faster it is to the skiers advantage to resist excessive intensity.

[bsmith]

@Orlando76 Can you tell us what you were specifically looking for in these comparisons? As a beginner who just ran the course a few days ago at 26 mph long line, I studied Terry Winter doing "reverses" here

where he runs the course all the way down to 18 mph on his 66" high end ski at 15 off. I also learned from @horton here

doing 26 mph at 15 off.

 

I took a tip from @escmanaze here http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12476/start-at-15-off-or-actual-long-line and found long line was easier to run the course than 15 off. Now that I can make 26 mph long line, I have resolved to clean up my form before progressing, but not sure whether I should progress with speed increases long line or go ahead and switch to 15 off.

 

For me, the big differences in my slow runs compared to the experts slow runs was the ski angle out of the offside turn. They could get their ski around much more than I could. My long offside turn and pull looked like how a modern day jumper cuts to the ramp.

 

I improved this situation by moving my fin way forward (ski became easier to turn on both sides) and I used a drill where I shadow turned the 2 and 4 onside balls so that I could approach every offside turn in the course with proper time and position. This gave me 3 realistic offside turn scenarios for every pass and my offside turn quickly improved to where I could then run all 6 balls.

 

[Orlando76]

I was truy thinking along the same lines @Stevie Boy

1. Mainly, the average “good” skier, I’m betting, can’t run 15@28 especially after -38@34.

2. We all see videos of Joe Schmo tryingbto ski -15@28 and it’s easy to pick apart what’s wrong. Not too often do we see Nate or Terry Winter ski long and slow. A lower level skier will learn more from these few videos than watching Terry’s bad a$$ 1/4 speed video that’s out there or the gozillion Nate at -39.5 video.

3. Curious to see how form changes from -15 to -38. There’s different forces at those lengths and speed. Frankly I thought the video of Marcus Brown at -22@30 wasn’t the greatest. Truly looks like me skiing -22@30.

[HMan66]

In that Seth Stisher video, watch it at half speed and look how good his offside turn is. Perfect example of how to let the ski finish the turn. That form will be my goal as my offside is what's keeping me from my first full pass.

[ToddL]

Watching the TW "Reverses" video, one can see that TW is maintaining a consistent "ski path" regardless of boat speed. The ski's travel speed is a factor in how to obtain that ski path. The method and effort to achieve sufficient ski speed / path changes with the boat speed. As the boat speed slows, the ski's ability to reach a glide speed reduces, eventually to a point where he must delay the edge change (starting around 22 MPH and below) in order to keep the ski moving out to the buoy line prior to the buoy.

 

@Chef23 and others' points about "angle" (direction/path/finishing the turn) & stacked leaning body position are valid. These skills are what allows the skier to obtain these ski paths through the course. That is why experts can still change edge so early at these lower speeds. Their technique allows them to obtain "angle" and ski glide speed more effectively, even at slower speeds.

 

(Note: Ski path relative to the course IMHO is only somewhat impacted by rope length but is significantly impacted relative to the boat/pylon. In the above TW Reverses video, he stays at -22 for all speeds.)