New Max speed for W4

[bsmith]

@BraceMaker The rule you advocate would push all the top competitors in every division to run the super high top speed. Whether it is unsafe for any one of them is an individual question. If a skier has aspirations to compete at the top of their division, the top speed choice is essentially forced upon them in order to be competitive. This would impact how many skiers want to compete under those conditions.

 

If we seek to maximize the numbers of skiers competing in each division, then we should seek to please the majority of skiers in that division. Ultimately, this means that good comprehensive surveys should be made so that the organization can make rules according to what the majority wants.

 

It's theoretically possible that the majority in a division would prefer a high top speed allowance and let ZBS adjust for those choosing lower speeds. Based on what I see on BOS and in tournament results, I don't think that choice would win a vote, especially when skiers observe ZBS and see with themselves and their peers that for whatever talent level they have, they will score less total buoys under ZBS if they ski a speed slower than what their division allows.

[MISkier]

@bsmith,

 

There was a survey on ZBS a couple years ago and a slim majority were in favor of it.

[bsmith]

@MISkier I like ZBS too. It allows skiers to choose slower speeds than what their division allows and create an adjusted buoy count. Those choosing to use ZBS in this way are slightly penalized in that they could probably achieve a higher buoy count if they did their best at the top speed of their division.

 

The issue @BraceMaker and I are discussing is about whether the top speeds of every division should be all set to one top speed of 36 mph and then let ZBS take care of all adjustments for those choosing to ski less than 36 mph. That concept has not been surveyed and I am definitely not for that approach.

 

 

[MISkier]

@bsmith, if I recall correctly, the survey I was talking about had a question to see how many approved of the ZBS rule as originally written back then. The original rule was all classes of tournaments (L and R included) and had maximum speeds set to 34 mph for women and 36 mph for men in all divisions. So, it allowed “overspeed”. Retaining the rule in that form was favored by 51.33%. The rule was actually implemented this way at the time. However, due to some protests by top skiers, the rules committee implemented a compromise that only allowed the overspeed at class C and F.

 

@JeffSurdej, do you recall the original survey question wording?

[bsmith]

@MISkier Thanks for the clarification on that. I did not realize that the original survey addressed credit for overspeed runs. I can see how skiers quickly protested that point.

 

I guess what I was sure of was that the survey didn't present @BraceMaker's concept that all divisions would have a top speed of 36 mph and that ZBS would make all the adjustments for that.

[MISkier]

@bsmith, I found the original question. Looks like a few more answered the survey after the point I recalled. Again, a narrow favoring.

 

 

 

[Jody_Seal]

So there you have it!! Hmm a couple _protests from upper level skiers?? Even though the initiative was in favor by the majority polled,a rule or policy was brought forth because of "some protests by top skiers" it was recended and made in the form currently utilize!

Deep state in waterskiing ?

Remember the level 10 mandate, it to was overwhelming rejected by a independent poll or petition and was largely not recognized by the powers to be.

Then a year later oh! We cant do that, it just was not the right thing to do or facilitate. It was a mistake!!

Again rules and policy's for the betterment of the few and disregard to the majority who were polled in favor..

 

[bsmith]

@MISkier Thanks for posting that survey question. But you know, that question was way too generalized to be of much use. It reads, "Do you think the AWSA Board should keep ZBS as it is currently written (all divisions, all classes, all speeds)?

 

That encompasses a lot of things and includes some confusion on whether the current division top speeds are part of the ZBS issue. It seems to me that if you had doubts on any aspect of the overall question, you would have answered no. On the other hand, if you read it as, overall do you agree with the concept of ZBS, then you likely answered yes.

 

I think AWSA should issue more surveys with much more pointed questions so as to better gauge what its members really want.

[MISkier]

@bsmith, the survey was conducted after the ZBS rule had already been announced and those responding were addressing an already documented/published rule change. So, the context and wording of the actual rule was known at the time of the survey.

 

Here is some background on those events:

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/16965/mm-level-10-new-rule/p1

(this mentions the new rule and there is a related excerpt on page 2 showing a portion of the rule as it was implemented in the rule book in January 2017)

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/17096/zero-based-scoring/p1

(this extensive thread announced the protest and campaign to rescind the rule and ultimately led to the survey and the rule being re-crafted as it is today)

 

Since the survey occurred after the rule was written, announced, and published, respondents should have had the entire text available to comprehend when answering the question as posed.

[MillerTime38]

@bsmith I don’t agree that all the skiers in the top three would be skiing 58k. Skiing at 58k has a lot smaller margin for error than 55k. Even though you may achieve a higher buoy count once in a while when skiing 58k I would bet that you would also have a lot more scores with a lower buoy count due to the increased difficulty. Like @JeffSurdej said it’s all about strategy.

[bsmith]

@MillerTime38 What you mention about the differences between 58k and 55k speeds is yet another example of how ZBS has difficulties on always equating 2 mph with 6 buoys. If ZBS was perfectly fair, there would be no difference between going up or down from any of the speeds. Each speed change would always yield a 6 buoy difference in performance. But in reality, the buoy difference effect is variable from speed to speed and from the change in rope lengths involved. If you read through BOS and survey skiers that have gone through top division speed changes, you will find overwhelming evidence that when you have to drop speed you can hardly ever equal your previous total buoy count.

[BraceMaker]

@bsmith I think what I am advocating is not unlimited top speed but a merit based process by which skiers could earn their highest scores.

 

Consider the current rule, you can ski AWSA nationals at 34mph and IWWF will call it 32mph - so my objection is how could you possibly have a scoring model in a sport that prevents you from being scored at your actual performance level?

 

In regards to forcing people to ski a higher speed that's the merit concept perhaps don't let someone go up a speed unless you are within a certain number of hours of that pass. Say for the 32 34 discussion. Someone into 38 off 32 is in 90 some bouys. Maybe require you hit something at 38 at the prior speed in tournaments yearly prior to an opt up.

 

 

[MISkier]

I'm not sure where some got the idea that the buoys awarded at different speeds were supposed to be 100% equivalent and adjusted to some factor accounting for exact congruence across speed increments. If that were the case, then we would not have this rule (10.13C):

 

C. The contestant with the most consecutive points earned at the shortest rope length at the fastest speed where the miss occurred shall be the winner of the event.

1. In a case where two or more skiers have the same number of consecutive points but at different boat speeds and/or rope lengths, the skier with the fastest boat speed where the miss occurred shall be declared the winner.

2. If they still have the same score, the shortest rope length shall be used to determine the winner.

 

Clearly, higher speed is considered in this rule to be the differentiating factor and the skier is given an incentive for achieving it. The rule doesn't say flip a coin or have the skiers guess how many fingers you're holding up. There isn't even a run-off for this situation. That happens when the speeds and line lengths are the same for each skier in the tie. It says faster speed is superior as the first factor in breaking a tie of heterogeneous speed/line lengths.

[bsmith]

@MISkier The rule you point out only reinforces my contention that there is advantage in skiing at the highest speed possible within a division. If two skiers should tie on a ZBS total buoy count, the one scoring at the higher speed gets the nod for the win. Records show that not only is it easier to get a higher ZBS score for a given level of talent by skiing at the highest allowed speed, skiers at the highest speed also get the benefit of a tie break over same score ZBS buoy counts done at slower speeds. There is no doubt that allowing overspeed ZBS buoys to count would force all the top competitors within a division to ski at the maximum overspeed allowed if they want any chance of finishing in the top three.

[bsmith]

@BraceMaker I have understood your position all along as establishing 36 mph (not some unlimited number) as the top possible speed allowed for a division.

 

The issue concerning the discrepancy in the AWSA max allowed speed and the IWWF allowed speed is independent of the point that advantage towards a maximum ZBS buoy count is gained when overspeed skiing is allowed. IWWF recognizes that fact and that's why they give no extra credit from the overspeed buoy count. AWSA should work hard to seek agreement with IWWF on division top speeds.

 

To accurately compare skiers within the same division, they must be held to the same top speed. ZBS attempts to normalize scores between skiers at different speeds, but it is just an approximation with a pass of six buoys approximately equal to a change of 2 mph. Fortunately, this approximation works slightly against those who would attempt to use it for gain over a skier at the max division speed. For that reason, I think ZBS is a good concept in that skiers can choose to deviate down from their division speed, but if they do so, they actually incur a slight performance penalty. Take the example of a skier that can run 4 buoys at 38 off at 34 mph. If the ZBS principle held true for equivalent score for equivalent talent at different speeds, that skier should be able to run 4 buoys at 39 off at 32 mph and achieve the same total buoy count. And yet that almost never happens. The same talent skier slowed down, just can't match his higher speed ZBS buoy count.

 

At the same time that skiing below a max division speed incurs a small penalty, if the option were allowed to ski above a max division speed is allowed, then an advantage is gained and that is why the ZBS concept should only be applied to reduced speeds from a division max speed and not be allowed for overspeed situations. If ZBS scoring is allowed in overspeed situations for a division, then all you have done is create a new max speed for that division as the best in that division will have to take advantage of the benefit gained from ZBS when used in an overspeed situation.

[MISkier]

It just doesn't seem right to artificially limit skiers who are capable of (and prefer) the higher speed. It feels like taxing one person more because they possess, and exert the effort to leverage, a higher earning potential - just to get their take home pay on the same plane as others.

 

You are comparing skiers with the same top speed. They all have the opportunity to select any speed they want. The big issue seems to be trepidation over another skier using the higher speed when one skier chooses not to. If that happens to me, I think I would just say, "Oh well, they are a better skier than I am". In fact, I say that now (a lot), even when we are at the same speed.

[ALPJr]

I know it’s late fall in the US and not to diminish the discussion but this is about amateur athletics right? How many, what percentage of skiers are we talking about?

[bsmith]

@MISkier The reason it is right to limit skiers who are capable of and maybe prefer a higher speed than their division max speed is that the current ZBS adjustment for overspeed is too much of an advantage on the ZBS buoy count. Again, once you start comparing skiers at different speeds, things are no longer on an apples to apples basis and it is extremely difficult to come up with ways to counter that accurately. That's why it is best to allow ZBS to only work downwards where it imposes a penalty on the skier choosing lower speeds and not allow it to work upwards in an overspeed situation where it then provides an advantage.

 

And while some competitors in a division might say, "Oh well, they are a better skier than I am", the rules must honor the competitors who are actually trying to win a division and be as fair as possible to them.

[klindy]

@bsmith @MISkier Perhaps a combination of ZBS like @bsmith describes (allow a skier to ski slower and not faster) along with an age division scheme similar to IWWF where each of the older groups are set up to be "or older" - 35+, 45+, 55+, etc. So if I skier does want to ski faster than the age divisions allows, the skier would effectively have to compete in the younger age group which has a faster max speed.

[BraceMaker]

@klindy that does solve the issue of how different a 45 year old can be than a 54 year old (or a 35 year old from a 44 year old)

[MISkier]

@klindy, maybe. There might be some who are slowing down from 34 to 32 that might consider it unfair to compete against someone 10-30 years younger than them.

 

 

 

 

[eleeski]

Some here seem to think that age defined max speeds are some arbitrary limiting artifact. I see them as a safety factor designed to preserve the health and extend the longevity of aging competitors. Judging by how many old skiers we see still competing, it seems to be working.

 

Women are becoming an important part of our sport. So now that we care enough about them to adjust their maximum speed along the lines of aging men, there's an uproar?

 

Ski Open, Masters or a younger age division if you want to ski fast.

 

Overspeed should never be incentivised!

 

Eric

[klindy]

@MISkier Certainly that's correct. There will always be something that someone doesn't like. The idea is to put a system in place that is 1) fair, 2) best represents the majority and 3) provides the flexibility needed to allow "adjustment" to accommodate those who don't fit into the majority case (for example, someone that doesn't want to slow down or exceptional athletes that are outside the majority of the competitors).

 

Along those same lines there are some who would consider it unfair to compete against someone who just entered the age division and was given a 6 buoy 'advantage' by not slowing down.

 

I would anticipate this would be used primarily by skiers who have just moved into a new age category with a slower speed. Maybe the first fall or even first year or two. You can do that under IWWF rules today and I'm not aware of many that use this option except when I team needs to fill out a spot of a younger group and they have options with older (by a division) skiers to choose from.

 

In the case of a skier who is 10+ years older (for example, 55+ skier wanting to ski in a 35+ group), it's also likely that same skier is a former Open skier or otherwise capable of competing in the younger group.

 

If this was going used a lot I would suspect it would be with jumpers since they would have the ability to not only jump faster but also potentially on a higher ramp. Again, the competitive advantage is obvious but relatively few skiers take that option.

 

[ski6jones]

@MISkier No less fair than saying 2 mph=6 buoys, which is pretty clearly not true. I like allowing those that want a faster speed to ski down in age division to get it. Apples to apples as far as the skiing is concerned.

[The_MS]

W5 record was just set this week. Would that have happened at 34mph?

[MISkier]

@The_MS, it would have happened. Jennifer is capable of skiing a 2@-38 at 34 mph which would have given her the same buoy count as 2@-39 at 32 mph. That would have beaten the previous score that equated to 1@-39 at 32 mph (or 1@-38 at 34 mph).

[The_MS]

I agree

[MillerTime38]

@bsmith from personal experience went from M2 to M3 within last couple years and my ranking score went from 105 buoys to 104 buoys and I only skied for 6 months at 55k. With more time at 55k there was no doubt I would have been above 105 buoys but unfortunately we moved to japan and my skiing is on a 3 year pause. That’s actual data not just guys saying what they can or cannot do.

 

 

[MISkier]

To continue the discussion on ZBS not related to W4 specifically, I'd like to suggest we move to this thread:

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/17096/zero-based-scoring/p14